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  1. #1
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    Default Discussion concerning best melee DPS builds after U14

    Hello all, I am starting this topic so as to discuss and start summing up thoughts and facts about what needs someone to do so as to make the best melee dps build. We will not just pick up a class or a race and certainly we won't give only one build or one solution.

    For better evaluation lets categorize things. I think the first 2 main categories are: THF and TWF then each category has subcategories that fit to someones gameplay. e.g. tactical play, full out attack, sneaks and so on. Taking all these in mind what do you say all you experienced builders and players? Shall we start?

    Lets begin with THF. I am waiting on thoughts and facts..

  2. #2
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Tops haven't changed much.

    mod/high fort: Monk.
    ED: Fury would be best, but has too many bugs negatively impacting monks atm (biggest being adrenalins not working right) ,so proll dreadnaught. Lots of monks go grandmaster tho for its insane epic moment.
    0% fort:
    THF BBn: ESoS + Fury or Dreadnaught, either way things get crushed. Which is better is hard to quantify, as it depends on the situation: Very short encounter - 7 adrenalins wins. Moderate encounter: Constant dmg boost wins. Very length encounter where boosts run out: Regenerating adrenalins but no regen for action boost brings fury back.

    Though even on 0 fort, monk aren't far behind. Haste boosted IV monk is crazy fast, so if all his bonus dice work, hes up there.

    TWF has fallen behind as none of the destiny stuff really benefits it as much as monk or thf. Lotsa +Ws infact benefit thf more (+2d6 per on a gs vs +d8 on a khopsh). Though drow khopesh is closer to esos for raw dmg then previous 1handers. Difference is still quite small tho, sub 10% behind THF for single target.

    Bow:
    Manyshot +double boost helf still wins the 20sec burst dps contest. Even more so with new raidbow and shiradis bonuses. spike Dmg potential in those 20 seconds is insane, in the 20,000+ dmg range. Or fury bowbuild for 20,000 in a single volley.. They win hands down on burst, but linger behind in sustained as before.

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    ED: Fury would be best, but has too many bugs negatively impacting monks atm (biggest being adrenalins not working right) ,so proll dreadnaught. Lots of monks go grandmaster tho for its insane epic moment.
    Very little in Dread works with wraps...the tactical bonus is major for monks as is the extra damage but none of the cleave enhancements work. None of the additional elemental damage works either. The cleave issues are supposed to get fixed but the elemental damage is WAI.

    For right now I would say that the GM with a tactical enhancement twist is the way to go for monks.

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    Well, as i see it from personal experience with a twf khopesh build 12 ranger/ 6 barbarian/ 2 fighter full fury of the wild, i see that it benefits very much from the adrenaline recharge. Yet havent tried it with a thf weapon but due to number of attacks the possibility to recharge is less.

    As i see it Fury with thf gives numbers around 7k on helpless mobs on a full horc barbarian. With my khopesh build not end game gear i have seen with adrenaline 2700 damage!

    As i was sitting today and doing calculations, i saw that a kensai 3 and a pure barbarian FB 3 have a str difference around 10 points. thats about 5 dmg, and 5 tactical DC which of course the kensai gets back with specialization, enh and all these things. We are talking fot THF in the calculations. That means that in the end we will have to compare LD and Fury.

    Fury gives the enormous amounts of dmg wit 7 recharging adrenalines (recharging on vorpal hits) and an average of 150 dmg per hit without the effects of weapons.

    Dreadnought gives more "sustainable" per hit damage. about half the damage on crits to helpless mobs than Fury but i think crits proc more often. Also we must not forget LD reaches a "seeker" bonus from feats and destiny and so on around 22. that is dmg applied on crits before multipliers. Of course LD can guarantee that every mob will be eventually stunned and of course improved sundered all the time, especially with LD Sundering strikes

    I dont know, i am really messed up with thoughts and all these things. It is hard for me to choose because there are not any marginal differences apart from the gameplay. An my problem is that i like to have a top dps toon but both destinies look sexy....


    And of course there are the rogues right in the corner causing more headache to me....

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarallanpoe View Post
    For right now I would say that the GM with a tactical enhancement twist is the way to go for monks.
    I am running GMoF with Tactics twisted in right now, it is very nice. Once the FP are there, I'll be twisting in Haste Boost too and I am thinking that will be silly good.

    But, just to say I've also run the other way, LD with a twist from GMoF and that's also very nice. The haste boosts, +crit dmg, tactics, etc. all work nicely with a dwarf earth monkey.

    Both ways seem good. Which is nice. No one path is one of the things I'm enjoying most about the expansion.

  6. #6
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgarallanpoe View Post
    Very little in Dread works with wraps...the tactical bonus is major for monks as is the extra damage but none of the cleave enhancements work. None of the additional elemental damage works either. The cleave issues are supposed to get fixed but the elemental damage is WAI.

    For right now I would say that the GM with a tactical enhancement twist is the way to go for monks.
    Haste Boost IV.
    Works fine for monks.

    Use that. twist in Sense weakness from fury. Unbeatable combo.

    Given you cannot twist in both haste boost and sense weakness, it makes grandmaster the inferior dps choice. Haste boost alone is a massive increase, add in a cpl other things from dreadnaught and you leave a grandmaster behind in the dust. Grandmasters great, but more for the insta kills/knockdowns/anti knockdown then dps.

    and a few other dreadnaught stuff does work for monks:
    crit dmg, all the boosts, dev crit, masters blitz.

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    Community Member Blank_Zero's Avatar
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    I love my build. Fury TWF with the Adrenaline+Manyshot Combo built in for super high ranged burst followed by high sustained melee DPS. TWF actually benfits more from Fury than a lot of people realize due to Tunnel Vision, Sense Weakness and Injury all going off on every weapon Proc, meaning more Proc DPS per swing than THF. Unbridled still favors THF more, but I pull out a manyshot while that is happening anyhow :P
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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Last time there was a comprehensive DPS chart done for leading builds, rogues were ahead of the pack by a fair margin.

    Now, they've gained +3d6 Sneak Attack from Improved Sneak Attack, and can jump into Fury or Dreadnought if they like, or go Shadowdancer for an additional +6d6 SA per swing. I don't see how the other destinies are adding an average of 21 damage a swing, or as much as 36 damage a hit. And SD also gains a potential single-target insta-kill, and a Wail that can be used once every few minutes, and that doesn't really interrupt your attacking. Plus, Assassins have the option of dropping DPS (vs. trash) a tiny bit, to possibly insta-kill one or two targets.

    Twists improve upon all of that.

    Moderate Fortification is almost irrelevant at this point, with the ability to bypass 60% Fort rather easily (25% Precision, 10% Opportunist, 15% Grim Precision, 10% Armor-piercing weapon/armor property).

    Even 100% Fort isn't too much of a hurdle: 12% from Destruction and Improved Destruction, 10% from Improved Sunder, and you're looking at 100% Fort getting knocked down to 18%. A dark monk could drop that to 0, as could a favored soul, and there are a few other ways for further reduce that.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    What epic destiny can get u do highest crit damage on a frenzied berserk barbarian Shade? Fury or legendary?

  10. #10
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Tops haven't changed much.

    mod/high fort: Monk.
    ED: Fury would be best, but has too many bugs negatively impacting monks atm (biggest being adrenalins not working right) ,so proll dreadnaught. Lots of monks go grandmaster tho for its insane epic moment.
    0% fort:
    THF BBn: ESoS + Fury or Dreadnaught, either way things get crushed. Which is better is hard to quantify, as it depends on the situation: Very short encounter - 7 adrenalins wins. Moderate encounter: Constant dmg boost wins. Very length encounter where boosts run out: Regenerating adrenalins but no regen for action boost brings fury back.

    Though even on 0 fort, monk aren't far behind. Haste boosted IV monk is crazy fast, so if all his bonus dice work, hes up there.

    TWF has fallen behind as none of the destiny stuff really benefits it as much as monk or thf. Lotsa +Ws infact benefit thf more (+2d6 per on a gs vs +d8 on a khopsh). Though drow khopesh is closer to esos for raw dmg then previous 1handers. Difference is still quite small tho, sub 10% behind THF for single target.
    Yeah I agree with yeah sad days for twf. Best twf build is probably a pure rogue but I do not think a rogue's dps is easy to quantify and not really comparable to monk or thf barb/fighter for that reason. Monks and THF stronger. I was going to tr a character, into a rogue or thf, but kind of tough to do so right now with the enhancement pass looming. Who knows what things will look like then.
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  11. #11
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Im gonna go with 19rog/1mnk shadowdancer with twists sense weaknes, tunnel vision and imp martial arts.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    Im gonna go with 19rog/1mnk shadowdancer with twists sense weaknes, tunnel vision and imp martial arts.
    How is monk helping there?
    You're trading the rogue capstone (+4d6 SA damage and +2 Int to fuel Assassinate and all the SD special moves), for 2[d6] unarmed damage? 2.5[d6] with the past life. You can get that kind of damage on shortswords and rapiers, with better crit ranges.

    You attack a little faster, but not enough so to make it worthwhile, in my opinion. If you're going with Stunning Fist...eh. You have other stats to focus on besides Wis. Not a bad trade there, but I don't know if I'd call it higher DPS than a pure rogue.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    You attack a little faster, but not enough so to make it worthwhile, in my opinion. If you're going with Stunning Fist...eh. You have other stats to focus on besides Wis. Not a bad trade there, but I don't know if I'd call it higher DPS than a pure rogue.
    Attack speed is more then enough to make up for lost SA dice and then some. Talk about assassinate and other insta kills have no place in dps thread.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  14. #14
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    Attack speed is more then enough to make up for lost SA dice and then some.
    I'd like to see a comprehensive comparison there. I think you may be right, but you lose a chunk of SA as well as the much better critical profile of whatever other weapons you could be using. Not sure that it comes out as a clear winner.


    Talk about assassinate and other insta kills have no place in dps thread.
    You know, I keep seeing this sentiment expressed (such as in that max DPS rogue thread up somewhere), but it seems ludicrous to me to make a big deal about maximizing rogue DPS while ignoring the ability to instakill, since you are giving up a TON for very little relative gain. Whatever DPS you may lose from building at least a little to have an effective Assassinate is more than made up for by simply killing stuff. DPS vs. 5,000 HP is irrelevant if you take that 5k to 0 in one swing.

    Yes, your boss DPS may go down a little, but we spend far more time fighting trash than we do bosses, and the relative loss in DPS is much smaller than the reverse would be. The fact that Shadowdancer provides two additional insta-kills, both based on Int, and one of which is an AoE that can take care of up to 6 (8?) creatures, while you're attacking still simply lends more weight to ensuring that you have enough Int to be effective. Shadow Manipulation lends even more weight to that, being a trifecta of CC, insta-kill and DPS boost (charming something adds to your DPS).

    You can ignore all that, and say your rogue does 3% more DPS than mine, but if mine is doubling your killcount because he's killing stuff, instead of hitting it, that argument starts to ring hollow.

    Now, of course, you can spalsh 1 monk, lose 4d6 SA and +2 Int, and still maintain a high Int for strong DCs, but then we're in a real debate about which ends up being more valuable. If you are not keeping Int up, and are going for Wis for Stunning Fist instead (my assumption), then the position looks weaker to me, especially if you're advocating Shadowdancer.

    In any case, the 19/1 rogue, or the 20 rogue, are both going to be higher DPS than whatever permutation of barbarian, fighter or monk you're looking at, although GMoF's epic moment erects a pretty significant bridge across that gap.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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    Community Member Potta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    You know, I keep seeing this sentiment expressed (such as in that max DPS rogue thread up somewhere), but it seems ludicrous to me to make a big deal about maximizing rogue DPS while ignoring the ability to instakill, since you are giving up a TON for very little relative gain. Whatever DPS you may lose from building at least a little to have an effective Assassinate is more than made up for by simply killing stuff. DPS vs. 5,000 HP is irrelevant if you take that 5k to 0 in one swing.
    You cannot insta-kill a red named mob or boss. A melee should absolutely care about his dps against these targets because that's why he's there instead of another caster - damage that's not tied to a SP bar.

    No-one's saying that DCs or utility is not important. But there are other places to discuss that, such as build discussion threads. This thread is about DPS, so discussing DPS is not at all ludicrous.

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    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    You cannot insta-kill a red named mob or boss. A melee should absolutely care about his dps against these targets because that's why he's there instead of another caster - damage that's not tied to a SP bar.

    No-one's saying that DCs or utility is not important. But there are other places to discuss that, such as build discussion threads. This thread is about DPS, so discussing DPS is not at all ludicrous.
    Yeah and you barely have to put anything into rogue to get 50% assasinate dc on mob casters in epic elite. I mean shoot can still have max strength with a 30ish int with like one piece of gear for int. Haha its pretty easy to be moderatly decent at it with almost 0 investment.
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  17. #17
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potta View Post
    You cannot insta-kill a red named mob or boss. A melee should absolutely care about his dps against these targets because that's why he's there instead of another caster - damage that's not tied to a SP bar.

    No-one's saying that DCs or utility is not important. But there are other places to discuss that, such as build discussion threads. This thread is about DPS, so discussing DPS is not at all ludicrous.
    I just find that unless you're are speaking strictly for the sake of hypothetical, then fine, disregard everything else, but if you're actually interested in building something for high DPS, and are mentioning rogues at all, (or monks), then you have to give credence to the secondary concerns. And you will still have much higher DPS than anyone else on a rogue even with some actual focus put into your DCs.

    As for having a DC high enough for instakill casters 50% of the time, that seems like a pretty lackluster goal. Killing casters should be much closer to 95%, and having the ability to one-shot most things that don't have super-Fort saves is rather relevant.

    Yeah, there are plenty of red and purple named we fight for which those abilities are irrelevant, but the percentages are lowish, and you're still a rogue swinging a boatload of DPS.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  18. #18
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    I always considered a fight for dps to be something that lasted more then 7 seconds.

    I mean if that's the case then hell the backed life PM is the god of dps. My sorc walking in exploding things into ice trumps everything and anything.

    And I find I do like the monk splash for the fact of bringing opportunity. Something looking at you? Well that's a real killjoy..oh wait lets sock em in the head make em see birdies and beat their ass with full on SA. Or knife em whichever.

    Boss sense with wraps you have the attack speed, the full str mod, a tod burst option if so chosen, couple of extra feats because hey especially now with all these feats changed, some ain't to shabby. A stance to meet a situation. Give a little to gain mastery of versatility.

    Now as for main dps I'd say it's mostly even until chance comes in.

    For instance a rog build well can slowly dismantle those defenses around the boss hamming in with dmg. But say the tank sucks, hate gets turned even with gear and skills. Well then ur like the guy next to ya.

    A barb. Raged up, geared up, he can get those strikes going pretty well. Add int he extra ranges for double edged dmg and it's even better. But lets say he really invested with the new feats epic stuff, and he's getting lucky with those dice rolling out 19's and 20's. All of a sudden his dmg is just soaring crit after crit.

    So they all seem pretty average, it's just what path they choose, and situations that could lead them striding forward in the parse. Could always use that program mentioned in a few dps threads. Make a slew of charts.

  19. #19
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Prior to U14 I would not seriously have discussed my HElf melee FvS in a thread like this. I would have been the first to say that, even with eSoS, his DPS was weak.

    With Legendary Dreadnaught 5 (and 2 Monk lvls for Cleave/Great Cleave) however I'm approaching the DPS of my Barbs, Kensai and Monk, but with vastly more survivability and solo-ability.

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    Well all options here can be discussed and of course all must be melee. Moreover i think that as a barbarian counts on his pure raw strength for dps, the same does kensai with burst dps using tactical feats as well, the same does rogue with sneaks and the instakills. I mean since a class has a special ability you must count on it. You can't simplify things and not take the rogues assasination into consideration. It is an option for dps along with sneaks.

    Please lets all continue this thread. I think very valuable info will get out.

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