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  1. #161
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    Default Really wish people wer saying Omg for shiradi on Ranged builds .

    Really wish you guys could spend the time to implement spellpower to raise ranged dps's proc's , Like how it raises for casters . Ofcouse they would getter better dmg out of it via , feats enhancments and such .

    It just seems like even when u make a destiny kinda geared towards ranged , Why is it that other classes can make the best of it .

    On the other note , Implmenting that would make for some nice builds / gear layouts .
    You guys said it would be hard to implement , But not impossible .

    And i hope it stays this way i guess ill check it out on my sorc when im done lvl'n lowbies .

  2. #162
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf201 View Post
    Really wish you guys could spend the time to implement spellpower to raise ranged dps's proc's , Like how it raises for casters . Ofcouse they would getter better dmg out of it via , feats enhancments and such .

    It just seems like even when u make a destiny kinda geared towards ranged , Why is it that other classes can make the best of it .

    On the other note , Implmenting that would make for some nice builds / gear layouts .
    You guys said it would be hard to implement , But not impossible .

    And i hope it stays this way i guess ill check it out on my sorc when im done lvl'n lowbies .
    What got me hooked on Shiradi was watching a pure Rogue Mechanic putting it to good use. A Pure Ranged build will still get a lot of milleage from Shiradi (anyone who can summon their own ammo is pretty well off, too).

    The real challenge, imo, will be in getting to level 20 with a build such as 12 archmage wizard, 6 battle-engineer arti, 2 rogue. The other problem will be leveling Shiradi (unless I get some stuff into it before hand) as said build.
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-01-2012 at 08:32 PM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  3. #163
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    How about a Rain of Cows that knock down everyone within a radius?! 8)

    Watch as my party members curse me while cows incapacitate EVERYONE (plus a lingering Charisma penalty from the after effects of the cow's terrifying drop from a mysterious plane (use your imagination). :P
    Raining Cats and Dogs... I let the effect for people with some untwisted imagination.

    Il pleut des Hallebardes... same as above but French version : raining Halberds. It could be fun in a twisted way.
    On G-Land : Flavilandile, Blacklock, Yaelle, Millishande, Larilandile, Gildalinde, Tenalafel, and many other...

  4. #164
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    What got me hooked on Shiradi was watching a pure Rogue Mechanic putting it to good use. A Pure Ranged build will still get a lot of milleage from Shiradi (anyone who can summon their own ammo is pretty well off, too).

    The real challenge, imo, will be in getting to level 20 with a build such as 12 archmage wizard, 6 battle-engineer arti, 2 rogue. The other problem will be leveling Shiradi (unless I get some stuff into it before hand) as said build.
    I don't understand why you'd combine arti and archmage. Being able to pew pew with bolts doesn't mean you'd get more procs. You'd get more procs by spamming force missiles and magic missiles rather than using time to alternate between crossbow and spells.

  5. #165
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I don't understand why you'd combine arti and archmage. Being able to pew pew with bolts doesn't mean you'd get more procs. You'd get more procs by spamming force missiles and magic missiles rather than using time to alternate between crossbow and spells.
    Arti gives me some advantages over being a pure force-oriented/Evo Archmage:

    1) Increased Trap DC's.

    2) Class bonus to UMD on wands and Scrolls.

    3) UMD.

    4) As I am leveling the build, I am going to encounter mobs who will save often against the spells that have them, or who often cast shield on themselves (making my missile spells worthless - Epic Mobs don't seem to cast shield, which is surpising).

    5) If I get some mob's agro, I can get away from the mobs better by shooting, than I can by casting spells (which greatly slows me down).

    6) I am not as experienced as a caster as I am a ranged/melee, so I'm rather clumsy when I try to avoid incoming mobs while still sending spells in their direction.

    7) I have rune arms that confer other benefits (lightning strike weapons and potency).

    8) Temporary HP spells, unlimited ammo, and basic weapon buffs (also +1 weapons also increases the implement bonus on your caster items. An item with +5 implement grants +15 equipment bonus to one's universal spell power. +1 Enchant weapons makes +15 a +18 instead. Additionally, Battle Engineer may add ANOTHER +2 to my implement; making said item a +8, which would hypothetically grant a whopping +24 implement bonus to my spell power. +68 potency + 24 total implement (even if only for 6 minutes) = 92 Spell Power, and that's before enhancements, and spell-type augments.

    9) Extra spells - I could get Repair spells as "free" slots, which allows me to devote more slots to other wizard spells.
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-02-2012 at 07:15 AM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    9) Extra spells - I could get Repair spells as "free" slots, which allows me to devote more slots to other wizard spells.
    Thats a bit of a fallacy there. Not being a pure wizard costs you wizard spell slots (and in a deep 12/6/2 multiclass even multiple spell levels), so youre not really "saving" spell slots as much as trading wiz spell slots for arti spell slots.
    Con is not a dump stat, but reading comprehension is not a dump skill!

    I dont have alts, just mules. Find me as Darivian on Thelanis.

  7. #167
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by good_ole_corwin View Post
    Thats a bit of a fallacy there. Not being a pure wizard costs you wizard spell slots (and in a deep 12/6/2 multiclass even multiple spell levels), so youre not really "saving" spell slots as much as trading wiz spell slots for arti spell slots.
    Even so, Evocation Archmages could run into problems spamming their missiles when they encounter opponents such as liches (or at least, the Abbot) who are immune to level 4 and lower spells (all of which would have a better chance of proccing shiradi damage more quickly and efficiently than the higher level spells (excluding meteor swarm).

    On the otherhand, these opponents are few and far between, and a pure evocation archmage may win out over the 12 wizard, 6 arti, 2 rogue mixed-bag build (although my build would/could win out over a pure archmage in that I would have utility and role-versatility on my side). Additionally, said pure archmage would/should also be able to max out multiple lines (and the enhancements improving criticals), allowing for more increased spell DPS from Shiradi. I could go pure archmage for the maxed out DPS, but if Shiradi ever got nerfed (most likely in the spell department, or making it so that only druid/ranger spells flag for shiradi procs), the pure archmage finds himself gimped because the one thing he/she/it excelled at has now been sufficiently changed that said archmage would be better off as a Magister/Draconic Incarn.
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-02-2012 at 11:33 AM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  8. #168
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    I was not commenting on the build really, just pointing out the "pro" #9 you posted, about it saving spell slots thanks to the arti autogranted repairs, being debatable at best.
    Con is not a dump stat, but reading comprehension is not a dump skill!

    I dont have alts, just mules. Find me as Darivian on Thelanis.

  9. #169
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by good_ole_corwin View Post
    I was not commenting on the build really, just pointing out the "pro" #9 you posted, about it saving spell slots thanks to the arti autogranted repairs, being debatable at best.
    You're probably right.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

  10. #170
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    Thanks for confirming that it appears to WAI for it to apply toward wands - this gives offensive wands a purpose in the game now beyond the first few early levels.
    Agreed. It's nice to see more support for more off-the-narrow builds, ala PnP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Any possibility to make so truly funny effects? A cow falling from the sky? [color=red]Coyle drops and begins to melee, only to die horribly and violently spewing blood and ashes that act like glitterdust?[/red] please?
    Well, he DID want to head into the realm of madness, no?
    Coyle for Shiradi Summon in 2012!

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Those aren't cows, they are squirrels.
    Masters of disguise, squirrels are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
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    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  11. #171
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    What got me hooked on Shiradi was watching a pure Rogue Mechanic putting it to good use. A Pure Ranged build will still get a lot of milleage from Shiradi (anyone who can summon their own ammo is pretty well off, too).

    The real challenge, imo, will be in getting to level 20 with a build such as 12 archmage wizard, 6 battle-engineer arti, 2 rogue. The other problem will be leveling Shiradi (unless I get some stuff into it before hand) as said build.
    I can't see that build being a challenge to level; it looks like a pretty standard form of TR levelling build and I'm just about to do something very similar. You'd have no problems at all getting to 20.

    Personally, I wouldn't bother with the two levels of Rogue for Evasion; I've never had the slightest trouble levelling an Arti without it and you're dumping two caster levels and the oportunity to max enhancement lines in exchange, which is huge. You say earlier in the thread that the other advantage of starting with Rogue is the extra helping of skill points, but on this build that's completely irrelevant. You'll be a max-Int build so you'll have quite literally more skill points than you know what to do with, particularly if you're using an Int tome and you swap your levelling order around a bit so you get your last couple of Arti levels after two Int levelups and a +2 tome.

    In response to your "pro's" vs a pure Archmage, speaking as someone who has capped both a force-specced, missile-focussed evocation Archmage and an Artificer (multiple times):

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    1) Increased Trap DC's
    Assuming you mean "trap saves", then yes; although only if you keep the Rogue levels and I honestly think that's a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    2) Class bonus to UMD on wands and Scrolls.
    +2 to UMD with wands and scrolls. Meh, OK, but I wonder how much this is going to matter... After all, you only really need Heal and Raise Dead levels of UMD for helping out your fleshy pals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    3) UMD.
    See above. Not that UMD isn't nice on *any* build, but you're a WF Wizard so it's mostly only going to apply to healing-type stuff that you're going to use on other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    4) As I am leveling the build, I am going to encounter mobs who will save often against the spells that have them, or who often cast shield on themselves (making my missile spells worthless - Epic Mobs don't seem to cast shield, which is surpising).
    No, you won't. Not really. I can't think of anywhere other than Gianthold which has significant numbers of mobs using Shield; they're dotted around the place, but it's not a big deal. Even in GH, where the Zakya cultists and Rakshasas cast Shield a lot, it hardly matters. Enough of your spells have no saving throws that it's not going to be hard to take care of the exceptions; I've never heard reports from experienced players complaining how hard it is to level a Wizard because of missile-immune mobs.

    Also, forget ye not that you could completely respec while levelling in order to specialise in the sorts of spells that are going to be most useful in the areas you're about to tackle, adding even further to the flexibility of a pure Wizard.

    As for mobs making their saves... well, a properly-built pure Wizzy doesn't suffer much from that problem. Your build might, but that means you're listing as a "pro" your build's ability to solve a problem that only occurs if you use this build in the first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    5) If I get some mob's agro, I can get away from the mobs better by shooting, than I can by casting spells (which greatly slows me down).
    Well, that's a play-style thing really. In my experience, avoiding mobs while casting spells is pretty much identically effective to avoiding them while ranging; it's just that the timings work out a bit differently. As a pure Wizzy, you'd be CC'ing most mobs into either "not following you" or "aggroing things that are not you"; even a pure force-specced evocation Archmage has access to way more options than simply getting away from mobs while pew-pewing. Depending on circumstances, you're sometimes better off standing in the middle of the mobs and blocking with your Blur, Displacement and Stoneskin while your persistent AoE damage, Fire Shield, summons and guards kill them dead.

    In fact, all of the above applies whether you play a pure Wizard, or your deep Arti splash. There's almost no point running this build and then playing it like a pure Arti... Just kiting and nothing else seems like a waste, particularly as you're not going to get the main benefit - outrageously beefed-up Blade Barriers - that Arti's receive when doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    6) I am not as experienced as a caster as I am a ranged/melee, so I'm rather clumsy when I try to avoid incoming mobs while still sending spells in their direction.
    You'd have to get better at that when playing a pure caster or this build, so I can't honestly see that being a point in its favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    7) I have rune arms that confer other benefits (lightning strike weapons and potency).
    Again, you can't honestly state these as benefits over a pure caster. You pretty much wouldn't be using weapons except as casting-buff implements if you were a pure caster, so lightning strike is more-or-less irrelevant unless you play this build. Similarly, although you can get potency from a rune arm, you could get better from carrying a pair of caster weapons or a lucky combination on a Thaumaturgy staff.

    The perk of rune arms on an Arti splash over pure caster is really "an extra trinket slot", but that's at the expense of "an off-hand weapon slot", so I'd say it's a push in terms of overall benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    8) Temporary HP spells, unlimited ammo, and basic weapon buffs (also +1 weapons also increases the implement bonus on your caster items. An item with +5 implement grants +15 equipment bonus to one's universal spell power. +1 Enchant weapons makes +15 a +18 instead. Additionally, Battle Engineer may add ANOTHER +2 to my implement; making said item a +8, which would hypothetically grant a whopping +24 implement bonus to my spell power. +68 potency + 24 total implement (even if only for 6 minutes) = 92 Spell Power, and that's before enhancements, and spell-type augments.
    The Battle Engineer and weapon buff bonuses to increase Implement spellpower is a nice idea, but I wonder how much benefit you'll actually see. In order to them to apply, you'll have to have a caster weapon in hand, which rather complicates your ideas about leaping about and alternating ranging and casting. A "caster weapon" repeater won't do enough damage for anyone to care about, so you'd need to swap between caster weapons and ranging as well as spellcasting... well, it all sounds a bit busy for my tastes If you're going to try that, you should probably attempt to fit Quick Draw in somewhere. And of course, if you don't swap a caster weapon in then you're going to lose much of the efficacy of both the base missile spells and the procs, which seems to be rather defeating the point.

    An Artificer with Battle Engineer and Enchant Weapons running gets a total of +9 more Implement bonus to spellpower than a pure wizard with the same gear. This is at the cost of a massive reduction in the pool of available spells, a significantly lower number of spell points and significantly less-effective spells due to a huge loss in caster level and lower DC's. Without resorting to a calculator, I'm going to nonetheless make a wild guess that the net result is a loss for the Arti splash in terms of efficacy. Plus... you were earlier saying that you wanted to be pew-pewing with a repeater in order to keep away from mobs instead of casting, so that Implement bonus is going to be wasted for much of the time

    The unlimited ammo is certainly a benefit: the main reason I've been planning to try something similar to this is for infinite pew-pew with added versatility... but don't forget that your attack bonus is going to be 4 points lower than a pure Artificer. You're going to need to fit in all the bonuses to hit that a pure Arti would which means you can't use those gear slots to improve the efficacy of your casting and you're still not going to hit as often. I don't think that'll matter much when levelling but I suspect it'll start being a problem at end-game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax

    9) Extra spells - I could get Repair spells as "free" slots, which allows me to devote more slots to other wizard spells.
    You've already conceded this one, I believe, but you'd actually lose a significant number of spell slots in exchange for your "free" Repair Light/Moderate/Serious.

    I was planing on running an Arti/Wizard as a fun and flavourful levelling build, and I could even see it having an edge over a pure Wizzy when it comes to taking advantage of Shiradi procs, but don't think most of the things you've listed really score over a pure Wizzy when taking the broader view of what the characters will be capable of.

    The odd thing is, you don't seem to have listed the primary advantage of such a build, which is - all by itself - so very important that it probably overrules all my quibbles...

    10) It looks like it would be a lot of fun.

    Crime in multi-storey car parks: it's wrong on so many levels.

  12. #172
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post
    I can't see that build being a challenge to level; it looks like a pretty standard form of TR levelling build and I'm just about to do something very similar. You'd have no problems at all getting to 20.

    Personally, I wouldn't bother with the two levels of Rogue for Evasion; I've never had the slightest trouble levelling an Arti without it and you're dumping two caster levels and the oportunity to max enhancement lines in exchange, which is huge. You say earlier in the thread that the other advantage of starting with Rogue is the extra helping of skill points, but on this build that's completely irrelevant. You'll be a max-Int build so you'll have quite literally more skill points than you know what to do with, particularly if you're using an Int tome and you swap your levelling order around a bit so you get your last couple of Arti levels after two Int levelups and a +2 tome.

    In response to your "pro's" vs a pure Archmage, speaking as someone who has capped both a force-specced, missile-focussed evocation Archmage and an Artificer (multiple times):



    Assuming you mean "trap saves", then yes; although only if you keep the Rogue levels and I honestly think that's a mistake.



    +2 to UMD with wands and scrolls. Meh, OK, but I wonder how much this is going to matter... After all, you only really need Heal and Raise Dead levels of UMD for helping out your fleshy pals.



    See above. Not that UMD isn't nice on *any* build, but you're a WF Wizard so it's mostly only going to apply to healing-type stuff that you're going to use on other people.



    No, you won't. Not really. I can't think of anywhere other than Gianthold which has significant numbers of mobs using Shield; they're dotted around the place, but it's not a big deal. Even in GH, where the Zakya cultists and Rakshasas cast Shield a lot, it hardly matters. Enough of your spells have no saving throws that it's not going to be hard to take care of the exceptions; I've never heard reports from experienced players complaining how hard it is to level a Wizard because of missile-immune mobs.

    Also, forget ye not that you could completely respec while levelling in order to specialise in the sorts of spells that are going to be most useful in the areas you're about to tackle, adding even further to the flexibility of a pure Wizard.

    As for mobs making their saves... well, a properly-built pure Wizzy doesn't suffer much from that problem. Your build might, but that means you're listing as a "pro" your build's ability to solve a problem that only occurs if you use this build in the first place



    Well, that's a play-style thing really. In my experience, avoiding mobs while casting spells is pretty much identically effective to avoiding them while ranging; it's just that the timings work out a bit differently. As a pure Wizzy, you'd be CC'ing most mobs into either "not following you" or "aggroing things that are not you"; even a pure force-specced evocation Archmage has access to way more options than simply getting away from mobs while pew-pewing. Depending on circumstances, you're sometimes better off standing in the middle of the mobs and blocking with your Blur, Displacement and Stoneskin while your persistent AoE damage, Fire Shield, summons and guards kill them dead.

    In fact, all of the above applies whether you play a pure Wizard, or your deep Arti splash. There's almost no point running this build and then playing it like a pure Arti... Just kiting and nothing else seems like a waste, particularly as you're not going to get the main benefit - outrageously beefed-up Blade Barriers - that Arti's receive when doing so.



    You'd have to get better at that when playing a pure caster or this build, so I can't honestly see that being a point in its favour.



    Again, you can't honestly state these as benefits over a pure caster. You pretty much wouldn't be using weapons except as casting-buff implements if you were a pure caster, so lightning strike is more-or-less irrelevant unless you play this build. Similarly, although you can get potency from a rune arm, you could get better from carrying a pair of caster weapons or a lucky combination on a Thaumaturgy staff.

    The perk of rune arms on an Arti splash over pure caster is really "an extra trinket slot", but that's at the expense of "an off-hand weapon slot", so I'd say it's a push in terms of overall benefit.



    The Battle Engineer and weapon buff bonuses to increase Implement spellpower is a nice idea, but I wonder how much benefit you'll actually see. In order to them to apply, you'll have to have a caster weapon in hand, which rather complicates your ideas about leaping about and alternating ranging and casting. A "caster weapon" repeater won't do enough damage for anyone to care about, so you'd need to swap between caster weapons and ranging as well as spellcasting... well, it all sounds a bit busy for my tastes If you're going to try that, you should probably attempt to fit Quick Draw in somewhere. And of course, if you don't swap a caster weapon in then you're going to lose much of the efficacy of both the base missile spells and the procs, which seems to be rather defeating the point.

    An Artificer with Battle Engineer and Enchant Weapons running gets a total of +9 more Implement bonus to spellpower than a pure wizard with the same gear. This is at the cost of a massive reduction in the pool of available spells, a significantly lower number of spell points and significantly less-effective spells due to a huge loss in caster level and lower DC's. Without resorting to a calculator, I'm going to nonetheless make a wild guess that the net result is a loss for the Arti splash in terms of efficacy. Plus... you were earlier saying that you wanted to be pew-pewing with a repeater in order to keep away from mobs instead of casting, so that Implement bonus is going to be wasted for much of the time

    The unlimited ammo is certainly a benefit: the main reason I've been planning to try something similar to this is for infinite pew-pew with added versatility... but don't forget that your attack bonus is going to be 4 points lower than a pure Artificer. You're going to need to fit in all the bonuses to hit that a pure Arti would which means you can't use those gear slots to improve the efficacy of your casting and you're still not going to hit as often. I don't think that'll matter much when levelling but I suspect it'll start being a problem at end-game.




    You've already conceded this one, I believe, but you'd actually lose a significant number of spell slots in exchange for your "free" Repair Light/Moderate/Serious.

    I was planing on running an Arti/Wizard as a fun and flavourful levelling build, and I could even see it having an edge over a pure Wizzy when it comes to taking advantage of Shiradi procs, but don't think most of the things you've listed really score over a pure Wizzy when taking the broader view of what the characters will be capable of.

    The odd thing is, you don't seem to have listed the primary advantage of such a build, which is - all by itself - so very important that it probably overrules all my quibbles...

    10) It looks like it would be a lot of fun.

    +1 for breaking down my build in a constructive manner.

    Out of curiosity, what would you suggest for my build? As long as I don't have agro, I can use Tharne's goggles for +5 to hit (rogue adds at least 1 to my to-hit - so that would at least partially offset the BAB penalties I am looking at, and I do believe I will have Greater Heroism). One thing I've noticed according to the character planner is my saves are in the high 10's, rather than the 20's, unless I slot a resistance item, which is likely too weak to evade heroic traps in the higher levels. Additionally, this build was made prior to a dev coming in and saying that wands proccing shiradi didn't appear to be broken though with an xbow in hand, I wouldn't be able to caster magic missiles during the cool down of my other spells.

    That being said, I am wondering if 13 Wizard/7 Arti, or 14 wizard/6 arti would be better. What's the break down of your build (with the current one I have in the concept-phase, I was hoping to offer a lot, and by Trap DC's, I was referring to finding and disabling them - 57 search with spy glass, and 50-something disable with a +15 item that I have on me now - GH not included in these calculations.)?

    Suggestions for improvement?
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-03-2012 at 06:23 AM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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  13. #173
    Community Member Persiflage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    +1 for breaking down my build in a constructive manner.
    Well thank you! +1 for not taking it hard; I wasn't trying to quibble so much as point out that some of the things you were hoping for as benefits might not materialise and it'd be a shame to put in the effort only to have it not pan out as you were hoping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    +Out of curiosity, what would you suggest for my build? As long as I don't have agro, I can use Tharne's goggles for +5 to hit (rogue adds at least 1 to my to-hit - so that would at least partially offset the BAB penalties I am looking at, and I do believe I will have Greater Heroism).
    Are you looking at this as largely a soloing build or party-based? If you're planning on soloing a lot, you're basically going to have aggro 100% of the time; you won't even have the option a pure Arti has of going with a hate-monster robopuppy, as a 6th level version will get squished flat in seconds from (at the latest) Gianthold onwards. As such, you're going to have to think of to-hit bonuses that don't include relying on sneak attack. To-hit is less of a worry than once it was, but I have to confess I don't have a good feel for how much you can afford to lose vs. a pure Arti before your repeater becomes more-or-less a device for ensuring that monsters look in your direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    One thing I've noticed according to the character planner is my saves are in the high 10's, rather than the 20's, unless I slot a resistance item, which is likely too weak to evade heroic traps in the higher levels. Additionally, this build was made prior to a dev coming in and saying that wands proccing shiradi didn't appear to be broken though with an xbow in hand, I wouldn't be able to caster magic missiles during the cool down of my other spells.
    Yeah, I find myself wondering how much mileage could be obtained from some of the named wands with capped Arti and Shiradi Your saves are going to be an issue, and again, I wonder whether you're actually going to benefit enough from Evasion to warrant dropping the two caster levels. Also, you're going to struggle with slots and I'm not sure that Tharne's Goggles are worthwhile for you if you're planning on using the Tier III Epic Spyglass anyway. You have to have that +6 Int item somewhere, you could seriously use a Wis item to spot the traps in the first place (although pots +GH will probably do), you're going to be swapping out disabling gear, Wind Howler bracers and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    That being said, I am wondering if 13 Wizard/7 Arti, or 14 wizard/6 arti would be better. What's the break down of your build (with the current one I have in the concept-phase, I was hoping to offer a lot, and by Trap DC's, I was referring to finding and disabling them - 57 search with spy glass, and 50-something disable with a +15 item that I have on me now - GH not included in these calculations.)?

    Suggestions for improvement?
    As you might have gathered, I like the basic concept of an Arti/Wiz build but I have my doubts about the value of including 2 Rogue over another 2 levels of Wiz, particularly with the lowish saves rendering Evasion of dubious utility... the extra spell slots from Wiz14, plus increased DC's from Heighten and the ability to max out damage enhancement lines, are pretty much going to be better in my view. On the plus side, retaining useful trapping skills, UMD and so on will be straightforward with or without the Rogue levels. I'd be inclined to postpone the last couple of Arti levels, however many you take, until later so you can squeeze a few more skill points out of +Int tome and level-ups, as you're not going to have any trouble levelling anyway almost regardless of class order.

    Y'know, if they'd make Shiradi procs apply to Rune Arms, this would be an even more interesting route as you wouldn't care about the base damage so much

    I would seriously consider fitting in Quick Draw. If you're going to be swapping from caster weapons to repeater to wands on the fly, it could make a big difference to how well the tactic works. I believe QD removes the 1s cooldown when switching from weapons to wands, but I'm quite prepared to be corrected on that score (and if it doesn't, it would be less valuable). You're probably going to want a lot of inventory space and duplicates of named items so as to cycle through them quickly... this will be a serious keyboard-bashing build. I'll mull over my Arti/Wiz concept and maybe post it here if I don't get distracted!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persiflage View Post
    Well thank you! +1 for not taking it hard; I wasn't trying to quibble so much as point out that some of the things you were hoping for as benefits might not materialise and it'd be a shame to put in the effort only to have it not pan out as you were hoping.



    Are you looking at this as largely a soloing build or party-based? If you're planning on soloing a lot, you're basically going to have aggro 100% of the time; you won't even have the option a pure Arti has of going with a hate-monster robopuppy, as a 6th level version will get squished flat in seconds from (at the latest) Gianthold onwards. As such, you're going to have to think of to-hit bonuses that don't include relying on sneak attack. To-hit is less of a worry than once it was, but I have to confess I don't have a good feel for how much you can afford to lose vs. a pure Arti before your repeater becomes more-or-less a device for ensuring that monsters look in your direction.



    Yeah, I find myself wondering how much mileage could be obtained from some of the named wands with capped Arti and Shiradi Your saves are going to be an issue, and again, I wonder whether you're actually going to benefit enough from Evasion to warrant dropping the two caster levels. Also, you're going to struggle with slots and I'm not sure that Tharne's Goggles are worthwhile for you if you're planning on using the Tier III Epic Spyglass anyway. You have to have that +6 Int item somewhere, you could seriously use a Wis item to spot the traps in the first place (although pots +GH will probably do), you're going to be swapping out disabling gear, Wind Howler bracers and so on.



    As you might have gathered, I like the basic concept of an Arti/Wiz build but I have my doubts about the value of including 2 Rogue over another 2 levels of Wiz, particularly with the lowish saves rendering Evasion of dubious utility... the extra spell slots from Wiz14, plus increased DC's from Heighten and the ability to max out damage enhancement lines, are pretty much going to be better in my view. On the plus side, retaining useful trapping skills, UMD and so on will be straightforward with or without the Rogue levels. I'd be inclined to postpone the last couple of Arti levels, however many you take, until later so you can squeeze a few more skill points out of +Int tome and level-ups, as you're not going to have any trouble levelling anyway almost regardless of class order.

    Y'know, if they'd make Shiradi procs apply to Rune Arms, this would be an even more interesting route as you wouldn't care about the base damage so much

    I would seriously consider fitting in Quick Draw. If you're going to be swapping from caster weapons to repeater to wands on the fly, it could make a big difference to how well the tactic works. I believe QD removes the 1s cooldown when switching from weapons to wands, but I'm quite prepared to be corrected on that score (and if it doesn't, it would be less valuable). You're probably going to want a lot of inventory space and duplicates of named items so as to cycle through them quickly... this will be a serious keyboard-bashing build. I'll mull over my Arti/Wiz concept and maybe post it here if I don't get distracted!
    About the wisdom - I have a Conc Opp Health Belt, which gives me +6 wisdom, and some bonuses to diplomacy and the like.

    For this build, I was thinking of a combination of soloing and party-utility. My current build (Lord of Blades FVS) can solo or party, and excels at both; this is something that I want my next life build to excel in as well, though my main concern will be surviveability (unless I can invest in dodge a bit) - The Drow of underdark (and epics) hit hard, even at range - on Epic Normal, their ranged attacks don't hurt my current build much on account of his 13 Adamantine DR. Though it could be a problem for my wizard/arti mix.

    What I am looking for is a build that can hold it's own solo or in groups, can perform a large array of duties for groups so as to fill in most high-demand rolls, and not get royally annihilated by challenging mobs such as the Drow Priestesses - what with the upcoming nerf to Reconstruct and all. 400+ HP was nice for casters when level 20 was end-game, but the mobs in Sschind-city hit hard (hard enough that they can drop my 700+ HP WF Lord of Blades if I am not careful, and that's with 13 DR Adamantine deducting from their damage per-hit), and I've seen some (pure) casters somehow manage to pull off 6-700+ hp.
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-03-2012 at 08:15 AM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    Default My findings with Shiradi and offensive magic so far...

    In my tests so far, I've managed to get multiple damage procs (although very rarely) from a level 9 magic missile wand, and most often, I either procced nothing, or I procced the 5d10 (with a mode of 37, and 38 damage a proc). One burst from my meteorswarm clickie saw me dealing 160 points of slashing damage to the necromancer I tested shiradi on.

    Additionally, I've found that some spell-like abilities do not appear to mesh well with shiradi. With a level 1 magic missile wand, and my greensteel meteorswarm clicky, I often saw that the damage was suplemented by a shiradi proc on some attacks. However, Avenging light, and the archon, and other divine spells have their damage replaced outright; when I struck a necromancer with an Avenging Light bolt, shiradi procced. *Edit update* I managed to get shiradi to proc on the level 1 nimbus of light spell, and the damage appeared beneath the main damage of the spell, rather than replacing it as was the case with Avenging Light SLA from Exalted Angel.

    Rather than doing Avenging's damage + the shiradi proc, the shiradi proc completely over-wrote and replaced the avenging light damage (meaning instead of Avening light's damage + shiradi innate lvl2, I only got the shiradi proc showing, and thus only doing 38 points of sonic damage in total).
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-04-2012 at 03:07 PM.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    Add to the list of double rainbow procs - Lightning strike.

    While spamming spells on Velah today, I noticed that one of my light/good spells (none of which approach 500 some damage because I am not a spell-build) had procced double rainbow, hitting velah for ~585 points of lightning damage.

    Basically, Double Rainbow (based on confirmations rather than rumors) can proc weapon procs such as incineration and lightning strike, in addition to spells and special abilities (web trip, prism, etc).
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    I am now going to get the opportunity to test the build I've been discussing on Lamannia. Time to see how it actually holds up (looks nice on paper, but practice may yet say otherwise). Will post the results of my tests when I get the chance.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

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    Okay here are my tests so far - all done in pvp so far.

    Although my direct spell DPS is rather weak (ice storm in particular), my dots hit harder than what my divine punishments were capable of (alone, and that's considering I don't even have all the spell power enhancements for it). Procs occur rather frequently. Ranged DPS seems to be about the same as my third life arti (except that he can't cast spells to break most DR - not a big deal with metal-type munitions lying about in house D).


    Boulder throw is a nice complement to the wildshots. As of my typing this, I am about to run a preliminary test in the Inspired Quarter on elite to see just how well he holds up (note, my build made a slip and doesn't have quicken... will be interesting to see how it holds up).

    First test of the build - Basic test - I did Finding the Path on Elite solo... Though my base spell damage was gimped, Shiradi greatly assisted with it's many procs from missile spam, and supplementary attacks from boulder toss and wild shots (both tier 3). Many of the mobs who attacked my "will" were either paralyzed, or banished outright. The ghost touch property granted by Shiradi is working beautifully - not a single incorporeal message. The most challenging thing so far (as I type this, I am at shrine in quest), were the spiders who phase-spammed in and out of reality.

    Upate - Just finished the quest - in all of 17 minutes (including the time I spent to type this message out as I was in quest). In spite of CC Spam, the shiradi paralysis turned out to be rather useful in preventing the healers from heal spamming. This was on elite btw, and on a character that would otherwise be considered "gimp". When I get the chance tomorrow, I will test the build in a REAL quest more appropriate for his level (BTW, I have not yet taken levels beyond 20, though I can be considered at the cap thanks to dev exp event) - thinking Phiarlan Carnie, or the one with the marks. Either that or put him through his paces in a high stress quest such as weapons shipment or sins of attrition.


    Day 2 - Update so far - Thanks to dev event, I was able to max all the destinies and unlocked all tiers, and maxed the first slot at 4 - I picked a fully upgraded energy burst as my twist of choice after fast healing failed to work correctly. Just ran two quests on Epic with a barbarian player and her hireling. First one was Lords of Dust on Epic Normal - trashed everything in there (including instances where we split up and I was left to fend for myself), disabled traps on rolls of 2 (without any gear augmenting my disable device, or GH). Gnomon was knocked down or paralyzed a few times toward the end, and the mobs enroute weren't much of a problem.

    As for Overlords, well, we got a bit arrogant (my party and I), and idiotically zerged a swarm of drow head on; we killed a few, but naturally got obliterated by the surviving mobs. Even so, the mobs up to that point (and even the drow, if we had used proper tactics to split their numbers) weren't much of a threat, and died rather easily on Epic Hard (hence, why we became arrogant). Twisted Energy burst is pretty good and I haven't even taken level 21 yet.
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 08-11-2012 at 06:54 AM. Reason: adding an update.
    Ziind Stargazer - Level 12 fighter/6 Barbarian/2 rogue Half-Orc (Neutral Good) - Formerly a level 20 Paladin Human - Orien

    Fernian Summer Carnival

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