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  1. #21
    Community Member Jacoby's Avatar
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    I'm really trying to like this game again after a 5 month hiatus but wow the nerf ninja hit hard this time. I like the new spell power system in concept only, in game functionality is lacking big time to the point that your experienced players are clueless. 1) We have no idea what are spell power is, how it stacks and how Meta's improve this total. I've read the posts over, and over explaining the formula's but I'm still at a complete loss at how it all functions together.

    What we need is a spell power total in the character sheet to let us know what are total spell power is for each damage type along with the multipliers for crit. That was we can see how this new system, equipment and Meta's are impacting our spell damage.

  2. #22
    Founder TreknaQudane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    In the spirit of this change, will you ever introduce Repair Amp? Or better yet just change Healing Amp to 'Improved Recovery' and have it work on all forms of "Healing" be it Positive Energy, Reconstruction, or Negative Energy if applicable.
    [REDACTED]

  3. #23
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowFlash View Post
    Let's address the RS burst next...
    Level 17 Cleric (leaving 3 to represent common melee splashing)=CL19
    1-8+1 per CL = 4.5+19 = 23.5 base
    All Meta's (which even melee cleric usually take)

    Pre-U14: Base*(1+meta's)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with RSII empower healing, clickies, and Life IV: 23.5*3.25*(.75+.4+1) = 164.2

    U14: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    23.5 + (23.5 x 3.5) + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*23.5 = 131.6
    This is not the formula used for burst in U14. Burst is correctly applying 100% of all spell power, from all sources.

    Tested on my level 18 cleric (caster level 20) with:
    40 Life magic II
    100 empower healing
    75 empower
    150 maximize
    78 devotion item
    9 spell casting implement
    ---
    452 spell power

    Base burst value of d8+20 (21-28) would expect a minimum of 115.92 (21 + 452%) and maximum of 154.56 (28 + 452%)

    Tested values were: 115, 121, 126, 132, 138, 143, 149, 154

    So it is working correctly, and nearly identical to the pre-U14 expected range of 116.025 (21 * 3.25 metas * 1.7 item/enh) to 154.7 (28 * 3.25 metas * 1.7 item/enh)
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  4. #24
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    Will radiant servant burst or aura be affected by this change as well?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post

    With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.
    That is absolutely laughable. For real?

    So maybe if you have a very high AC build you'll get missed 2 hits in 20 instead of 1 in 20 . . . but the mobs/bosses hit at least twice as hard. The dragon in EE Don't drink the water hits for over 500 on a non-crit.

    Have you actually played epic elite with god-mode turned off? I cannot believe you have if you're going to make the above statement.
    Last edited by Ape_Man; 07-18-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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  6. #26
    Community Member ShadowFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    This is not the formula used for burst in U14. Burst is correctly applying 100% of all spell power, from all sources.

    Tested on my level 18 cleric (caster level 20) with:
    40 Life magic II
    100 empower healing
    75 empower
    150 maximize
    78 devotion item
    9 spell casting implement
    ---
    452 spell power

    Base burst value of d8+20 (21-28) would expect a minimum of 115.92 (21 + 452%) and maximum of 154.56 (28 + 452%)

    Tested values were: 115, 121, 126, 132, 138, 143, 149, 154

    So it is working correctly, and nearly identical to the pre-U14 expected range of 116.025 (21 * 3.25 metas * 1.7 item/enh) to 154.7 (28 * 3.25 metas * 1.7 item/enh)
    Funny, my testing on my 17/2/1 using the above formula showed exactly the correct number...in my case exactly 127...far less than pre-U14 (granted I always thought it was weak, but useful for managing cooldowns or mid-melee). I think the burst uses stacked dice as well, because I show very little variance from 127 other than crits. There's been many posts by other clerics stating very weak bursts, but in light of everyhting else, has mostly been overlooked.

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  7. #27
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    I really don't see why wf are getting affected with this nerf. Their spells are already limited and don't give any real extra like the heal spell. for me i know reconstruct is buggy atm. We click on it and either it doesn't get cast or it hits for a only a decent amount.

    Remember Reconstruct is wf only and has no real special abilities when compared to the fleshy part of heal which does a lot more. But honestly the way its going. More you keep stripping from wf. The less that race is going to be seen played. They have horrible choices of docents and keep falling behind in caster related with motu hitting. (named wise) I'm just wondering when wf will lose all immunities and no longer be worth it anymore. Spidersilk robes for example. when will we see a docent with this? i understand stone heart and ancient gemstone can be added to sets but yet again i don't see any of them having the power spidersilk robes has.

    My point about wf is they keep getting the short end of the stick so they keep falling behind now. Im hoping they will get some sort of bone to make up for the constant problems they suffer.

    I also don't understand the use the cures argument either. So you want me to use a spell that heals for less and therefore i will burn through my sp more just to make up for what were lacking? Is that what im understanding?

    When we get up to the level of receiving heal spell were happy. It was the ultimate heal spell. worst part right now with wf amp broken. It requires SOOOO much more healing just to keep one alive.

    last point you mention for them to use other cures besides heal in higher level content. What i hear from a dev use MORE sp so you run out. Buy MORE pots now. In any mmo when the best heal spells are unlocked its what they use. the other healing spells are used less. I don't see a reason to nerf the best and up the weaker ones. It will just consume more sp which people will really complain about if their burning through more pots.

    Please understand Heal spell has not only been our best cure spell ever but now its even more important with disease and poison the way it is now. A lot of people are now suffering a lot of stat damage. So not only does it help their hp but removing the negative effects is a huge bonus. cure spells itself cant fix this.

  8. #28
    Founder Nyvn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I did not make it through the entire thread, but here are some answers for now:

    1. Is it difficult to put the actual percentage that an effect is reduced/increased by Spell Power? One of my reasons for asking this is due to how you stated Rune Arms have a variable reduction based on what type of Rune Arm, but we have no way of knowing which Rune Arms have which degree of reduced Spell Power gains. Is Force Shot 50%, 65%, 80%? Is Exploding Cannonball Shot 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%? And the other Rune Arm shots? Actually giving the percentage would be helpful in the tooltip noting that the effect has reduced/increased Spell Power gains.

    No this isn’t that difficult and we will pursue it.


    5. Is it true that we need 100 devotion item to break even? Here’s some math:
    Take the Heal spell.

    For a character with the max life magic line (life magic IV), and no metas. I also exclude healing amp since it applies equally to both cases.

    Old system, with superior potency or superior devotion:

    150 x (1+.4+.5) + 150*1.9 = 285

    New system, with the SAME equipment (sup potency VI converted, so assume sp 48 with an implement bonus of 9)
    SP = 100 + (40+48+9)/2 = 168.5. Times 150 = 252, a 12% loss.

    Now, we'd all agree that equipment is gimp, so let's toss it out, and use better at-level equipment. Say a devotion 72 item, with a 15 implement bonus. That is STILL

    SP = 100 + (40+72+15)/2 = 183, times 150 = 274, a 4% loss.

    In fact, in order to get back to your old level for heal, you would need a 100 devotion item just to break even, and get back to the old level (since half of 100 is 50, the old bonus you got in the old system, and the enhancement bonus of 40 remains the same).

    100 devotion is very high level in this new system, certainly > level 20. And that's just to get back to the old, pre-expansion level.

    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).

    Thanks for the discussion, but what I really want to know is. Why are you making the simple system more complicated? Why don't you change the base damage done by spells (and Rune Arms) you're not happy with. That way players have a more uniform experience, and can make informed decisions about spells, and gear.

  9. #29
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    Thank you for the reply, but heal is the best single target heal spell available in the game, to the point where other than scrolls, it's the ONLY option for someone who's way down on hp. Cure crit without metas doesn't come close. With metas, it's still less healing, and actually MORE EXPENSIVE than heal.

    With epic levels and destiny abilities, melee character HP has gone way, way up. Not 10%, not 20%. It's not uncommon to find pugs that have melees at 700, 800, 900 hp, have even seen one over 1,000.

    And even with BETTER gear available in the update, heal is down a little. With the BEST devotion gear, it's about 3% up.

    Let me share this experience. It's not even new content, but I was getting some gear ready for a future TR, and need to run a couple of shrouds. (I only mention shroud because it's been my only raid in the last couple of weeks, other than that I've mostly been running epics with guildies and the new content.) This is a well-geared, 3rd life evoker FVS. Full life magic line, devotion 96 item + 12 implement bonus. Obviously, better gear than pre-update. (But, a weapon I need to swap out of to do any offensive casting now).

    In each run, most melee characters all over 700 hp. One over 1,000, 1-2 over 900, a few over 800. Mass heal was good, up about 30% from before. Of course, hit points are up about 50% from before, so the proportion of health healed is less. During mass heal cooldowns, there was always one or two who got hit hard and needed emergency healing.

    Heal often didn't do the job in those cases, only partially filling red bars. And that is predictable -- Even with the devotion 96 item, heal is only about 2% better than before. Non-defender melees have gone from 600 to 900+, a 50% increase, and the only realistic single target healing spell in the game is 2% better, with good equipment. Adding another 30 spell power (no -- 15!) from the EA destiny only makes that total 10% better. THAT is why divines keep telling you they feel like they are being left behind.

    And let's be clear on something: Adding 15% to the cure xxx wounds spells helps Rangers and Paladins, not clerics and FVS. Those spells can't even come close to replace what heal is doing. If you try to heal high end groups with cure spells and mass cures, you will run out of spell points in no time.

    Heal was already made more expensive in the great spell pass. And now it's getting left behind in a big way. And I don't think the AC system negates this in any sense. Sure, the rogue in leather armor gets hit a little less, but he wasn't the problem. The 900 or 1000 hit point defender is the problem, and he's getting hit MORE. Besides, forget AC, enemy spellcasters are also hitting for more.

    Bottom line:
    Player hit points are up, in many cases as much as 50% higher or more.
    Mob damage is greater, and faster.
    Heal, the biggest single target healing option, treaded water at best, and only with epic gear upgrades.
    Mass heal got better, it's very slow even then, the boost is less than the HP increase.

    Heal needs better than 50% spell power. Maybe not full, but 75% at least.
    Last edited by justagame; 07-18-2012 at 07:58 AM.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Dear MAD, Id like to address point 4 and point 6.


    ------------------------------------------------------------
    4. reconstruct.
    BALANCING RECONSTRUCT VS HEAL, AND REPAIR VS CURE.

    I would care to remind the devs that reconstruct does not benefit from any metamagcis other than quicken, heal on the other hand benefits from empowered heal. Further more repair amp does not exist, whereas heal amp is highly prevalent(required for tanks) post lvl 20.

    Reconstruct is not just a spell used by wf arcanes to heal them selves, it is used by arcanes to reapir wf tanks. those wf tanks have upwards of 1000 hp. In the current implementation it is actualy WORTH having an arcane repairing the wf rather than the cleric healing them, and on a wf with only a moderate amount of healers freind and no heal amp the numbers are comparable.

    In current end game a fully repair specced wf arcane is 'healing' for the same numbers that a fully heal specced cleric is. the difference is that the clerics heal is additionaly curing stat damage, poisons, diseases etc.

    I completely agree that repair and curative spells should be balanced to each other. there for upping cure spells to 115% should ALSO mean you up repair spells.

    As warforge are now susceptable to these factors and you want to make sure that recon is balanced vs heal id propose the folowing modifications:

    1. empower metamagic to effect reconstruct.
    2. reconstuct modified to same % from spell power as heal.
    3. reapair spells modified to same % from spell power as cures.
    4. reconstruct now cures everything heal does - stat damage, diseases, poisons etc, the speed boost is removed(it never stacked with haste anyways)
    5. repair amp: the simplest way i can see for increasing the amount of repairs that wf mele tanks get without increasing the amount wf arcanes give them selves is if WF recieve an amount of repair amp based equal to the %damage reduction from PRR. Thus a warforge in heavy plating (ie not an arcane) will recieve a greater total benefit from a reconstruct, and a warforge in mithril plating(ie a scout or battle caster) will recieve a small boost. Additionaly come the enhancemnt pass repair amp should be addressed - this would only be a quick fix. an alternative quick fox would be to give all ITEMS that currently grant heal amp to also grant repair amp - but that would have an impact on wf arcanes as well.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    6. healing aura and burst.

    AURA: the aura is working fine, nothing wrong here after some regearing.

    BURST: somethign is definately borked here. the burst is not the undead nuke it once was. and its healing is sub par.

    burst healing: on my cleric, the burst is hitting for 130 is points of healing on average. Infact its thwoing out the same kinda numbers as mass CLW. IT should be giving more. It should be according to the description be giving d8 + 1 per CL - with no indication of a max CL. according to that logic i should be seeing numbers comparable to my mass cure serious.(250+) I beleive the burst is maxing out its CL, or it is not being fully effected by either spell power or metamagics.

    burst vs undead: again this ability is much much weaker than it was before. it sayd D6 per CL - no cap., now thats what most of my sorcs spells are so i know the kind of damage i should be getting.. ie in the 400 to 600+ range considering i have maximise, empower heal, and lots of positive spell power.

    What im seeing is more along the lines of 110 on a passed save and 220ish on a failed. Again I think either metamics, spell power or an unlisted MAX caster lvl is to blame here.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    General points of note related to this discussion:

    1. Have you considered making the spells that take reduced effectiveness from spell power take instead: full spell power from enhancements/EDs etc. 0 spell power from items. Alternativly and better simply take the highest of either.

    I mention this as an idea because it occurs to me that this could be used to reduce slot dependancy (but only for these spells). Without unbalancing the game it would make a lot of battle clerics very happy. It would also be beneficial for nuker arcanes, meaning they only need to slot impulse and radiance - or slot all 3 but save on healing enhancements. both could of course swap to healing items come raid time. TRUE healer clerics would gain the benefit of cheap efficient cure spells - they are the only ones that use them as the rest of us are too busy doing damage to micromanage to that extent.

    Conversely for WF it would mean that any arcane could become 'recon specced' for a given encounter by swapping to a reconstruction item, wheras an actual wf arcane would not need an item becuase they have spent the enhancement points.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    with ranged damage been subpar with melee and spells, cant still understand why nerf the rune arms.

  12. #32
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    This is not correct. I have THE best gear possible and my numbers are substantially smaller post update. Please check again.
    /signed

    Why can my level 8 Sorcerer do more damage with Scorching Ray (on a percentage basis) than my level 23 Cleric can with Avenging Light?

    Please give Clerics a little more love in the offensive casting department, ok?
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    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  13. #33
    Community Member FrozenNova's Avatar
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    Put me down as also claiming that the idea of having spells be varyingly influenced by spellpower is a silly one. The biggest driving force behind the spellpower change seemed to have been to simplify the mechanics. That was done, now we have an additively stacking percentile bonus. Only, if spells benefit from varying percentages of spellpower, your actual spellpower number is not directly meaningful, which is exactly what the simplification was aiming for.
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  14. #34
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacoby View Post
    I'm really trying to like this game again after a 5 month hiatus but wow the nerf ninja hit hard this time. I like the new spell power system in concept only, in game functionality is lacking big time to the point that your experienced players are clueless. 1) We have no idea what are spell power is, how it stacks and how Meta's improve this total. I've read the posts over, and over explaining the formula's but I'm still at a complete loss at how it all functions together.

    What we need is a spell power total in the character sheet to let us know what are total spell power is for each damage type along with the multipliers for crit. That was we can see how this new system, equipment and Meta's are impacting our spell damage.
    This is coming in patch 2.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    4. reconstruct.
    BALANCING RECONSTRUCT VS HEAL, AND REPAIR VS CURE.
    The point of the exceptions to Spell Power are not to balance certain spells against each other. The point is to balance them to what they were before the update.

    If your reconstruct is working better than it did before the update (or would be if all the wf bugs were fixed) then that is where balancing comes in. If your reconstruct is not working as well as before the update (again, taking current bugs into consideration), that would be a valid point to post in this thread.
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  16. #36
    Community Member Hordo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This is coming in patch 2.
    That is awesome news.
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  17. #37

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    We'd like to apologize for any accidental misinformation.
    The 15% numbers Madfloyd posted regarding Cure spells are not final. We haven't yet internally decided on the exact extent (numbers) or scope (which spells affected) of any spell buffs in Update 15.

  18. #38
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    When player HP, mob damage, player melee damage , sorc/wiz spell damage are all going UP...

    why was keeping divine spell damage/healing constant even a goal?

    Do you sell that many sp pots to the divine classes?


    ps FIX healers friend or at least ACKNOWLEDGE the problem.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Spell damage dice are not very granular, so any adjustment is a large change, while spell power coefficients can be set to any percentage we need. It’s a much simpler and more effective tool for balancing spell effects.
    You know the range of boosts that are availible in the game for example

    maximize, empower, empower healing, and spellpower from items and enhancements. With that knowledge and the additive system of spellpower it would be easier to balance the spells at the base. Currently the way spellpower works this is what could happen going forward.

    Lets say that right now the average lvl 20 healer has 100 devotion spellpower from items. Currently you've worked to balance the heal spell against the cure spells (meaning a slight buff to the cures and a slight nerf to the heal spell). In some future update the level cap goes up to 30 and ML 30 spellpower items grant 200 devotion spellpower. Cure moderate wounds gets 115% but heal get 50% spellpower. Therefore as gear gets better and levels go up Heal becomes worse and worse compared to cures eventually requiring it to be rebalanced to remain effective.

    If you were to balance the spells at the base they would stay relative to each other in power no matter what you add to the game in terms of spellpower, feats, enhancements etc...

    In addition it would be easier for the players to figure out the effectiveness of each spell because even if you list the % of spellpower in the description (as you've said you want to do in some future update) they still have to take their overall spellpower subtract the spellpower they get from feats and then multiply by whatever % you give them to get the correct spellpower. Do this for 10-20 different spells with varying spellpower and you've essentially turned something very simple (spellpower) into one of the most complicated aspects of the game.

    In otherwords easier for the devs to balance (short term) but much less intuitive and more difficult for the players than balancing at the base.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This is coming in patch 2.
    and yet I'll still have to recalc everything for each spell with differing spellpower percentages.

    Heal 50%
    Cures 101%
    Rune arm 80% for some

    edit:// Sorry I said I won't troll any longer. I think I'm just going to take a break from the forums so players who still play the game will have more input than me (who hasn't played since the update).

    See you all in 9 months.
    Cannith - Noehealz, Protectorjon, Noebuffs, Mortion

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