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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    This is actually a good point and a good idea, although limiting it to those specific items causes some problems for FVS (and healer bards), as those items are otherwise completely useless to them. They would be giving up a much more valuable slot just for an implement bonus. And bards dont get the Religious Lore, afaik.
    Bards do get all 3 lores now; arcane, religious, and nature. However, religious and nature are not as full as arcane and acquiring them is buggy.

    For example, one of my bards who I have not played much, who did not use the free LR, only shows some arcane lore feats since leveling up a few levels. If a person makes a new bard at level 7 (just tested again) that bard will show 7 arcane lore feats, 4 religious lore feats, and 4 nature lore feats.

  2. #122

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    A general reply to "my heal doesn't fill up the life bar" type posts....

    The description doesn't say it does that. It provides a set amount of healing just like other spells. If it was supposed to heal the red bar up to full the description would state such and the spell would do so. The fact that the spell became less potent in higher level content is something that happens to other spells too.

    Having the spell fill the red bar is something the players with that spell might like to make things easier for them but that is not what the spell was intended to do. It can be compensated for by casting it sooner.

  3. #123
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    A general reply to "my heal doesn't fill up the life bar" type posts....

    The description doesn't say it does that. It provides a set amount of healing just like other spells. If it was supposed to heal the red bar up to full the description would state such and the spell would do so. The fact that the spell became less potent in higher level content is something that happens to other spells too.

    Having the spell fill the red bar is something the players with that spell might like to make things easier for them but that is not what the spell was intended to do. It can be compensated for by casting it sooner.
    Heal now hits for LESS with BETTER gear. Putting aside proportional healing, the actual raw amount is less. Its nice that the lower cures got a boost (and are getting more), but the specific issue is that Heal is now hitting for less than it used to while at the same time HP bars are going up, making Heal seem even more gimped by proxy.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Reconstruct is a pathetic spell because of the lack of any Repair Amplification and any feat like Empower Healing.

    A sorc spamming Recon on cooldown and weaving in scrolls heals a WF for a lot less than my Bard can heal a fleshy and the bard uses less mana.
    I would have thought that we'd see some repair amplification come into play with the WF Juggernaut. At least, this is my hope...
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Reconstruct is a pathetic spell because of the lack of any Repair Amplification and any feat like Empower Healing.
    And because it do not cure the target of any negative effect like Heal does (blindness, stun, poison, disease, confusion, etc, etc).

    I'm still in the team that want heal amp to affect repair in the same ammount (including Healer's friend). This way, while a well-equipped forged will be finely healed by cure spells, a repair spell is ALWAYS more effective on them.

    Indirectly, this may even add power to Construct Essence. You know, that feat that almost everyone agree is a trap in fleshie artificers.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    A general reply to "my heal doesn't fill up the life bar" type posts....

    The description doesn't say it does that. It provides a set amount of healing just like other spells. If it was supposed to heal the red bar up to full the description would state such and the spell would do so. The fact that the spell became less potent in higher level content is something that happens to other spells too.

    Having the spell fill the red bar is something the players with that spell might like to make things easier for them but that is not what the spell was intended to do. It can be compensated for by casting it sooner.
    When people are chain casting healing and cure spells because multiple players aren't getting filled up, there is no "casting it sooner." People are compensating to the fullest extent possible, to the point where they aren't stopping in between heals to cast DP or other offensive spells. Glad you feel this is a good thing. Glad to know there are folks out there who think it's perfectly fine that, while other classes are diving in to their new abilities and power in these higher levels, that divines are (a) grinding out gear just to get back to the same level, and (b) having to chain cast healing spells at the expense of other things.

    And forget higher level content, heal is less potent in the SAME content.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by justagame View Post
    When people are chain casting healing and cure spells because multiple players aren't getting filled up, there is no "casting it sooner." People are compensating to the fullest extent possible, to the point where they aren't stopping in between heals to cast DP or other offensive spells. Glad you feel this is a good thing. Glad to know there are folks out there who think it's perfectly fine that, while other classes are diving in to their new abilities and power in these higher levels, that divines are (a) grinding out gear just to get back to the same level, and (b) having to chain cast healing spells at the expense of other things.

    And forget higher level content, heal is less potent in the SAME content.
    Your definition of "the fullest extent possible" looks pretty open to interpretation and you don't have the first hand knowledge to back up a general statement like "people are compensating". I'm not having trouble with healing and I'm a people too.

    I regeared and use more mass cures, and I'll use a cure to top of a heal better on single targets too. Cure serious is hitting for 90ish and it does help.

    As far as heal being less potent in the same content and divine characters are changing gear every other caster is also dealing with this. Do you really think a maximized empowered fireball has the same impact at level 10 after we look at the new meta stacking and minimum level requirements for combustion bonuses, or that a sorc/wiz doesn't need different gear to make that spell more effective? How about chain lightning at level 15? Superior whatever doesn't just click for 75% bonus anymore either.

    I see all these posts going on and on about the heal spell when the reality is the heal spell heals a specific amount per level with a level cap of 15 so the effectiveness is eventually going to become less prominent in higher levels. The fact that most bonuses were doubled before the 50% spell power coefficient does put heal close to where it was with some differences based on level requirements for devotion and empower healing stacking changes, and potency reductions. There is nothing in those lower levels that heal can't cover because of the huge base per level compared to everything else in this game.

    There's just too much doom threading going on for something that still works and is better aligned with other spells but still a significantly better spell.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bugs floating around, but if new higher level content is harder at first during the adjustment period for many that's something I would consider normal.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1. Is it difficult to put the actual percentage that an effect is reduced/increased by Spell Power?

    No this isn’t that difficult and we will pursue it.
    Fantastic, me likes!

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    2. So many have been noting that divine light spells are only getting .5 as well, is this a bug?

    The only light damage spell that is getting half spell power is Summon Archon, which is on the list we provided in the forum post.
    Thanks for the info.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3. It feels like, as a Cleric, we are being pushed into one role or another, which I despise. I don't like weapon swapping, especially when it means a quarterstaff, to get the same result as I used to

    You may want to find another item slot where you can get Devotion in that case. You can easily find rings or helmets with Devotion, and named items that fill other body slots have Devotion as well.
    Kk then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    So, Reconstruct was too OP and needed to be nerfed, too? Or how should I understand this?


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    5. Is it true that we need 100 devotion item to break even? Here’s some math:
    Take the Heal spell.

    For a character with the max life magic line (life magic IV), and no metas. I also exclude healing amp since it applies equally to both cases.

    In fact, in order to get back to your old level for heal, you would need a 100 devotion item just to break even, and get back to the old level (since half of 100 is 50, the old bonus you got in the old system, and the enhancement bonus of 40 remains the same).

    100 devotion is very high level in this new system, certainly > level 20. And that's just to get back to the old, pre-expansion level.

    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    Umm. OK? So, Heal is nerfed... but you're further buffing cures?

    So, the previous post about spells being balanced to their former levels in the new system was, well, misinformed? (or a lie, depending on how you want to say it)

    The object of this exercise is to nerf heal, then? Yes? Just so we know where we stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    6. Wasn’t on the list, but:
    1) Positive Energy Burst: I'm hitting for significantly less. My cleric was 12 before the patch and is 12 now as he is apart of a static group. Nothing on him has changed, why the difference?

    2) Positive Energy Aura: Same as above, I've lost 5-9 points of heal per tick. Nothing has changed.

    We would need more info to comment on this, namely level and equipment being used.
    Good thing my cleric is semiretired, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    My belief is that the current heal multiplier is too low, and that it is reducing the power of a lot of people's Heal spell, especially those that relied on empower healing. I do not believe this was your intention, and would suggest some tweaking.

    We’d prefer to boost cure spells as mentioned in the response to question 5.
    Ah, so the object of the exercise WAS to nerf Heal. Check. For the future, as we've said time and time again, coming out and saying it instead of stealthnerfing stuff is a better approach. Can we say you've learnd this lesson... this time?



    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    8. I went to all the time and effort to make my Alchemical Dev IX shields because of the increasing level cap, hp, and damage I knew was coming in U14. So, what now? What do we do to compensate for the loss of healing?

    How has it actually affected gameplay? How much of a healing loss have you experienced? Either healing is not difficult (in which little further change is needed) or some adjustments on our part is necessary.
    Good thing I didn't bother grinding for one of those.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    9. With the massive hp inflation from expansion, heal (not mass heal) is relatively less powerful (hp increased by 20-50% while heal is the same as before). While you could before refill someone in one cast, it is no longer possible. To compensate people need to slot more healing amp... But we know that some people already don't carry some needed items (such as fortification), is it really wise to add a new must have?

    Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.
    Oh.

    Point 1: The increase from better gear is fairly small, nothing like the increase in HP at all.

    Point 2: Really? So, nerfing mid level healers is a good thing?

    Point 3: Really? So healers now should depend on playing only with geared players and definitely only with people with EDs? Is this really a good development?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    10. Does the Light Monk Healing Finisher get full Spell Power from Devotion items?

    Yes.
    Cool.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    11. Please check Silver Fire spell 200% sure it's broken. Description says about 100-160 dmg base - we are getting 50% less. I would also like to ask why only Druids have new divine spells and why Avenging light was nerfed by 50% in u14.1?

    Silver Fire is not a player spell. It’s ‘Searing Light’. The description was accidentally overwritten by the NPC ability “Silver Fire”. Searing Light is dealing the proper amount of damage and the description will be back to normal as of patch 2.
    Fairy nuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    12. Will heal and mass heal always be last if our hp goes past 2k and stuff like that? i would hope that you will boost the % so we can heal our toons hitting those insane hp ranges because before motu a heal or mass heal would nearly heal them.

    Now it barely touches 25% of their life meaning you need to spend more sp to heal someone back to full. So im just saying will we see a % increase if hp keeps going up because honestly 400hp wont cut it if their hp at 2k.

    See answer to #9.
    Point 4: Not all damage is physical, and not all classes/builds will get better defense against physical than before. With the Displacement nerf, a fair amount of (especially newer) players will actually get hit more.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    13. Why you decided to make wizard PrE slas reduced spell power, instead of using 1d3 damage per level and full spell power? Could you just half the damage/heal of the original spell/SLA and leave spell power alone?

    Spell damage dice are not very granular, so any adjustment is a large change, while spell power coefficients can be set to any percentage we need. It’s a much simpler and more effective tool for balancing spell effects.
    But at the cost of making the new system even less obvious and simple than the old one? Seems silly to me, but what do I know.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #129
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    You're getting a lot of flack for this, but these changes seem pretty reasonable. Regardless of the 'nerf', favored souls are still top of the heap and my cleric feels more powerful than ever. It was my bard that was getting left behind, particularly in the healing department.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    Woot! Bard buff!

  10. #130
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    Default Please reconsider Reconstruct and Spell Power

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?
    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    MadFloyd, Feather, and other devs,

    Adjusting the Reconstruct mechanic in this way doesn't make sense in the same way that you have adjusted Heal and Mass Heal (both of which I understand).

    As others have mentioned, Reconstruct has the following disadvantages to the Heal spells:

    1) There is no Empower Reconstruction feat (not that I'm recommending it, as it would not be taken by most), eliminating a key way to get power on your reconstruction feat.

    2) There is no repair amplification.

    3) While there are various ways in Epic Destinies to help your healing power, there is nothing available to help with repair power (unless I'm forgetting something).

    Adjusting the amount reconstruct hits for based on spell power would be an unnecessary adjustment to the spell; please reconsider adding it to the list of spells that get reduced effects from spell power.

  11. #131
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Default "healing changes" are half baked ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    If this is true, not only should single target Cure spells be done, but also Inflict, Repair, and Damage(whatever that is now.) As these all follow the same suit of healing/hurting.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?
    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    You know that is REALLY going to hurt Arti's that took Construct Essence.

    They already only get half "healing" due to the feat, but now are going to cut it again by half. They don't even get the benefit of haste from Reconstruct.

    So what now? It has been shown that issues from before are starting to follow again because you are trying to make special cases. The question you designers must now do is ask yourselves just how special like the English language rules of grammar do you really intend to make spell casting in the game??? Quite honestly it was easier to follow before, now we have a basic with rules and exceptions to those rules.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 07-22-2012 at 05:56 PM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    So what now? It has been shown that issues from before are starting to follow again because you are trying to make special cases. The question you designers must now do is ask yourselves just how special like the English language rules of grammar do you really intend to make spell casting in the game??? Quite honestly it was easier to follow before, now we have a basic with rules and exceptions to those rules.
    Pretty much. When you've got to houserule your houseruling on your houserule, time to revisit the original departure point, and see just why it is the math is falling apart.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Your definition of "the fullest extent possible" looks pretty open to interpretation and you don't have the first hand knowledge to back up a general statement like "people are compensating". I'm not having trouble with healing and I'm a people too.

    I regeared and use more mass cures, and I'll use a cure to top of a heal better on single targets too. Cure serious is hitting for 90ish and it does help.

    As far as heal being less potent in the same content and divine characters are changing gear every other caster is also dealing with this. Do you really think a maximized empowered fireball has the same impact at level 10 after we look at the new meta stacking and minimum level requirements for combustion bonuses, or that a sorc/wiz doesn't need different gear to make that spell more effective? How about chain lightning at level 15? Superior whatever doesn't just click for 75% bonus anymore either.

    I see all these posts going on and on about the heal spell when the reality is the heal spell heals a specific amount per level with a level cap of 15 so the effectiveness is eventually going to become less prominent in higher levels. The fact that most bonuses were doubled before the 50% spell power coefficient does put heal close to where it was with some differences based on level requirements for devotion and empower healing stacking changes, and potency reductions. There is nothing in those lower levels that heal can't cover because of the huge base per level compared to everything else in this game.

    There's just too much doom threading going on for something that still works and is better aligned with other spells but still a significantly better spell.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there are some bugs floating around, but if new higher level content is harder at first during the adjustment period for many that's something I would consider normal.
    First, I want to make sure you recognize that I AM a primary healer, and I do not like these changes in the least. Throwing a maxed/empowered/emp healed/quickened CCW out to get the moderately same effect as a quickened/emp healed Heal spell out is not practical, but it seems that's the thrust the Devs are going to. What's being lost is that Heal is supposed to be the end-all healing spell, just as mass heal is. In 3.0 D&D, it healed all but 1d4 hp. It removed all the negative conditions it does now. It was THAT spell. And it's supposed to be that spell.

    To those who think that clerics can just plow their way through quests and just self heal, show me the last time any divine did 3-4k damage with ANY epic ability like arcanes can (I've had a guildmate say he capped at 9k damage with his arcane blast). And that's with the gear they had on pre-u14. We are having to turn ourselves into walking band-aid boxes just to keep up, and it's getting harder to do so. I know you seem to think that it's okay that we throw more spells at the red bars, but when you have to throw 2-3 spells to have the same relative effect as you used to be able to do with one spell prior to U14, there's a significant problem.

    So let's recap what was done "for" divines in this update:
    - We've had our relative healing diminished, meaning we have to cast more
    - We've had our DPS diminish on two fronts: Our BB does less (one of our primary spells), and we have to spend more time throwing healing spells, meaning less time for other offensive spells
    - We've gotten the glorious task of having to retrofit our entire gear arrangement just to try to keep up with the changes, while every other class gets to keep what they have and bash away.
    - And we get told that we just have to take all these changes and like them, because clearly Divines are so OP in their ability to heal people that they needed to be reigned in.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carkolda View Post
    First, I want to make sure you recognize that I AM a primary healer, and I do not like these changes in the least. Throwing a maxed/empowered/emp healed/quickened CCW out to get the moderately same effect as a quickened/emp healed Heal spell out is not practical, but it seems that's the thrust the Devs are going to. What's being lost is that Heal is supposed to be the end-all healing spell, just as mass heal is. In 3.0 D&D, it healed all but 1d4 hp. It removed all the negative conditions it does now. It was THAT spell. And it's supposed to be that spell.

    To those who think that clerics can just plow their way through quests and just self heal, show me the last time any divine did 3-4k damage with ANY epic ability like arcanes can (I've had a guildmate say he capped at 9k damage with his arcane blast). And that's with the gear they had on pre-u14. We are having to turn ourselves into walking band-aid boxes just to keep up, and it's getting harder to do so. I know you seem to think that it's okay that we throw more spells at the red bars, but when you have to throw 2-3 spells to have the same relative effect as you used to be able to do with one spell prior to U14, there's a significant problem.

    So let's recap what was done "for" divines in this update:
    - We've had our relative healing diminished, meaning we have to cast more
    - We've had our DPS diminish on two fronts: Our BB does less (one of our primary spells), and we have to spend more time throwing healing spells, meaning less time for other offensive spells
    - We've gotten the glorious task of having to retrofit our entire gear arrangement just to try to keep up with the changes, while every other class gets to keep what they have and bash away.
    - And we get told that we just have to take all these changes and like them, because clearly Divines are so OP in their ability to heal people that they needed to be reigned in.
    I don't recall 3.0 heal spell spell specifically, but 3.5 (which I thought was the same as 3.0 as far as that spell) is definitely 10 hp / level capped and level 15. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm

    The way meta's changed still impacted every other class so if you bring up arcanes in epics doing a lot you need to put that in perspective. Swapping conversation between non-epic heal changes to compare to epic arcane damage doesn't make sense. Non-epic arcane damage suffers issues too, for the same reason divine spells suffer less damage. Epic divine classes do have some epic healing ability just like arcane classes have epic abilities that follow their class counterparts.

    Astral vibrance, ascendance, renewal, reborn in light are in the exalted angel destiny. Mass Heal still scales up to caster level 25. A person should not list epic arcane benefits and ignore epic divine benefits.

    I know a lot of divine players might not like this next comment, but it stands: If a person wants to do the damage of an arcane caster that person should be making an arcane caster. If a person doesn't want to do the damage of an arcane caster then pointing out how much damage an arcane caster does is pretty much irrelevant.

    Do you think it's okay for other classes to need to regear but healing classes should be treated differently?

    I would also like to point out players are still healing on their bards. They are doing this without the heal spell, which indicates the more powerful heal spell should still be able to get the job done better. Not using empower or maximize on those cures is useful; they provide a smaller benefit than before so hitting a second healing spell is more cost effective than maximizing a single healing spell.

    Even if a lot of the comments are that cures can't compare to heals even with the changes that doesn't mean heals would need to be improved; that would mean cures need to be improved to be more effective yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I don't recall 3.0 heal spell spell specifically, but 3.5 (which I thought was the same as 3.0 as far as that spell) is definitely 10 hp / level capped and level 15. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm

    The way meta's changed still impacted every other class so if you bring up arcanes in epics doing a lot you need to put that in perspective. Swapping conversation between non-epic heal changes to compare to epic arcane damage doesn't make sense. Non-epic arcane damage suffers issues too, for the same reason divine spells suffer less damage. Epic divine classes do have some epic healing ability just like arcane classes have epic abilities that follow their class counterparts.

    Astral vibrance, ascendance, renewal, reborn in light are in the exalted angel destiny. Mass Heal still scales up to caster level 25. A person should not list epic arcane benefits and ignore epic divine benefits.

    I know a lot of divine players might not like this next comment, but it stands: If a person wants to do the damage of an arcane caster that person should be making an arcane caster. If a person doesn't want to do the damage of an arcane caster then pointing out how much damage an arcane caster does is pretty much irrelevant.

    Do you think it's okay for other classes to need to regear but healing classes should be treated differently?

    I would also like to point out players are still healing on their bards. They are doing this without the heal spell, which indicates the more powerful heal spell should still be able to get the job done better. Not using empower or maximize on those cures is useful; they provide a smaller benefit than before so hitting a second healing spell is more cost effective than maximizing a single healing spell.

    Even if a lot of the comments are that cures can't compare to heals even with the changes that doesn't mean heals would need to be improved; that would mean cures need to be improved to be more effective yet.
    Did you even read my post? I was specifically responding to the comment that indicated divines can waltz through a quest because they can heal themselves to full. The problem is Divines frequently lack DPS on orders of magnitude when compared to arcane.

    As it specifically pertains to epic abilities, there isn't a divine ability that heals for anywhere near the same potency as arcanes do DPS. On top of that, our one ability that could be uber... sucks. Reborn in light will never go off, because every time you shrine it resets your charges. Our divine wrath requires us to charge up using light spells, and that's also bugged, and heals for... a mass heal amount, and the aim and speed are slower than mass heal. But, in a raid, we will be too busy firing off heal and mass heal to really have divine wrath charged.

    The point I was trying to make with the epics is that arcanes got a LOT of love for epic destinies, but divines got significantly less, especially when you consider the +30 healing power you get is really +15 for all intents and purposes. But yet Divines are the ones getting nerfed because they are somehow mysteriously OP, but Arcanes are just hunky dory. I take exception to that.

    Gear... No one LOST power in this update except Divines. A barbarian's axe-swing still bashed people's heads in for 200 points of damage. Arcane spells still doled out a lot of power. Backstab was still +xd6. Paralyzers still ... paralyzed. The list goes on. But Divines saw their ability to heal diminished, all because the devs believed their heal and mass heal to be OP. So they nerfed it. So now we have to re-gear, per the dev's specific comments about finding better gear, just to stay where we were.

    For me, it's an issue of principle. I don't want to bring the other classes down. I want them to re-institute divines where they were prior to u14. I want divines to be able to heal as powerfully as arcanes dole out damage. Otherwise, we do nothing but heal, and that makes it less fun for us (I would love to dot Harry with DP, hit him with a few avenging lights and searing lights, and then divine wrath to pop a heal).

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    Is there any chance you can change this decision, given there is no repair amp like there is heal amp?

  17. #137
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    All this talk still being perpetuated about healing being tougher than it was in the past is a myth. One spell (heal) is SLIGHTLY less effective than it was from levels 11 to ~21 or so. Another spell (mass heal) got a slight buff, and cures got a decent buff.

    I am not seeing healers who re-geared (like the rest of us had to) having an issue keeping people alive -AS WELL AS- being able to DOT kite, blade barrier, and melee DPS if built for it. I also do not see this mass shelving of divine classes the forumites speak of, nor do I see this "we can only play babysitter roles" being held to in game either.

    Divines are still soloing and short manning E and EE content, and are still near the top/on the top of the power ladder as far as what can be accomplished with them -vs- other classes on a quest by quest basis. Peoples knee jerk negative reactions were proven incorrect on this issue over time, and now instead of admitting it was an incorrect knee jerk negative reaction, they are claiming they are not in support of the changes "in principle" after they were proven wrong in practice. Actions speak louder than words here. And peoples words regarding the situation of playing divines are not being upheld by the actions of people who play divines in game.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #138
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    All this talk still being perpetuated about healing being tougher than it was in the past is a myth. One spell (heal) is SLIGHTLY less effective than it was from levels 11 to ~21 or so. Another spell (mass heal) got a slight buff, and cures got a decent buff.

    I am not seeing healers who re-geared (like the rest of us had to) having an issue keeping people alive -AS WELL AS- being able to DOT kite, blade barrier, and melee DPS if built for it. I also do not see this mass shelving of divine classes the forumites speak of, nor do I see this "we can only play babysitter roles" being held to in game either.

    Divines are still soloing and short manning E and EE content, and are still near the top/on the top of the power ladder as far as what can be accomplished with them -vs- other classes on a quest by quest basis. Peoples knee jerk negative reactions were proven incorrect on this issue over time, and now instead of admitting it was an incorrect knee jerk negative reaction, they are claiming they are not in support of the changes "in principle" after they were proven wrong in practice. Actions speak louder than words here. And peoples words regarding the situation of playing divines are not being upheld by the actions of people who play divines in game.
    That might be because divine casters are no longer healing pugs/raids. Whereas healing only builds are okay with double healing duty and no time or opportunity to use spells that are 40% as effective as their casting peers.

    ETA: After a cursory glance at sla damage compared between my FvS and my level 16 heroic level sorc - much much less than the previous 40% mark... yay.
    Last edited by taurean430; 07-24-2012 at 01:13 AM.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
    And an army of gimp experiments!

  19. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carkolda View Post
    Did you even read my post? I was specifically responding to the comment that indicated divines can waltz through a quest because they can heal themselves to full. The problem is Divines frequently lack DPS on orders of magnitude when compared to arcane.

    As it specifically pertains to epic abilities, there isn't a divine ability that heals for anywhere near the same potency as arcanes do DPS. On top of that, our one ability that could be uber... sucks. Reborn in light will never go off, because every time you shrine it resets your charges. Our divine wrath requires us to charge up using light spells, and that's also bugged, and heals for... a mass heal amount, and the aim and speed are slower than mass heal. But, in a raid, we will be too busy firing off heal and mass heal to really have divine wrath charged.

    The point I was trying to make with the epics is that arcanes got a LOT of love for epic destinies, but divines got significantly less, especially when you consider the +30 healing power you get is really +15 for all intents and purposes. But yet Divines are the ones getting nerfed because they are somehow mysteriously OP, but Arcanes are just hunky dory. I take exception to that.

    Gear... No one LOST power in this update except Divines. A barbarian's axe-swing still bashed people's heads in for 200 points of damage. Arcane spells still doled out a lot of power. Backstab was still +xd6. Paralyzers still ... paralyzed. The list goes on. But Divines saw their ability to heal diminished, all because the devs believed their heal and mass heal to be OP. So they nerfed it. So now we have to re-gear, per the dev's specific comments about finding better gear, just to stay where we were.

    For me, it's an issue of principle. I don't want to bring the other classes down. I want them to re-institute divines where they were prior to u14. I want divines to be able to heal as powerfully as arcanes dole out damage. Otherwise, we do nothing but heal, and that makes it less fun for us (I would love to dot Harry with DP, hit him with a few avenging lights and searing lights, and then divine wrath to pop a heal).
    Arcane casters need to do a lot more damage than healing heals because the enemies have a heckuva lot more hit points than the players do. It does not make one bit of sense to expect healing to do as much healing as arcane damage does to enemies.

    Everyone who was using maximize and empower took a hit in offense that needed to be covered with gear changes. Everyone who was using potency and clickies needed target specific gear. This includes the arcane casters you keep mentioning. Everyone should be looking at AC gear. Melee need to consider their attack bonuses better and should be hitting less often based on the new attack formula. These changes definitely went to other classes; no multiplicative metas for arcane casters, no 95% miss rate on high AC tanks, no autohit on a 2 vs ACs previously capable of it, changes to get dodge, rounding on attack bonuses, etc... Claiming other classes do not need to regear or lost things is not correct.

  20. #140
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Arcane casters need to do a lot more damage than healing heals because the enemies have a heckuva lot more hit points than the players do. It does not make one bit of sense to expect healing to do as much healing as arcane damage does to enemies.
    So enemy hp went up...player arcane damage does up....ok...

    Enemy hp goes up...player melee damage goes up...ok...

    Player hp goes up...divine healing goes...down?

    And that makes sense to you?

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