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  1. #1
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Default Healing/Spell Power questions & answers

    I did not make it through the entire thread, but here are some answers for now:

    1. Is it difficult to put the actual percentage that an effect is reduced/increased by Spell Power? One of my reasons for asking this is due to how you stated Rune Arms have a variable reduction based on what type of Rune Arm, but we have no way of knowing which Rune Arms have which degree of reduced Spell Power gains. Is Force Shot 50%, 65%, 80%? Is Exploding Cannonball Shot 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%? And the other Rune Arm shots? Actually giving the percentage would be helpful in the tooltip noting that the effect has reduced/increased Spell Power gains.

    No this isn’t that difficult and we will pursue it.


    2. So many have been noting that divine light spells are only getting .5 as well, is this a bug?

    The only light damage spell that is getting half spell power is Summon Archon, which is on the list we provided in the forum post.


    3. It feels like, as a Cleric, we are being pushed into one roll or another, which I despise. I don't like weapon swapping, especially when it means a quarterstaff, to get the same result as I used to

    You may want to find another item slot where you can get Devotion in that case. You can easily find rings or helmets with Devotion, and named items that fill other body slots have Devotion as well.


    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.


    5. Is it true that we need 100 devotion item to break even? Here’s some math:
    Take the Heal spell.

    For a character with the max life magic line (life magic IV), and no metas. I also exclude healing amp since it applies equally to both cases.

    Old system, with superior potency or superior devotion:

    150 x (1+.4+.5) + 150*1.9 = 285

    New system, with the SAME equipment (sup potency VI converted, so assume sp 48 with an implement bonus of 9)
    SP = 100 + (40+48+9)/2 = 168.5. Times 150 = 252, a 12% loss.

    Now, we'd all agree that equipment is gimp, so let's toss it out, and use better at-level equipment. Say a devotion 72 item, with a 15 implement bonus. That is STILL

    SP = 100 + (40+72+15)/2 = 183, times 150 = 274, a 4% loss.

    In fact, in order to get back to your old level for heal, you would need a 100 devotion item just to break even, and get back to the old level (since half of 100 is 50, the old bonus you got in the old system, and the enhancement bonus of 40 remains the same).

    100 devotion is very high level in this new system, certainly > level 20. And that's just to get back to the old, pre-expansion level.

    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).

    6. Wasn’t on the list, but:
    1) Positive Energy Burst: I'm hitting for significantly less. My cleric was 12 before the patch and is 12 now as he is apart of a static group. Nothing on him has changed, why the difference?

    2) Positive Energy Aura: Same as above, I've lost 5-9 points of heal per tick. Nothing has changed.

    We would need more info to comment on this, namely level and equipment being used.

    7. My belief is that the current heal multiplier is too low, and that it is reducing the power of a lot of people's Heal spell, especially those that relied on empower healing. I do not believe this was your intention, and would suggest some tweaking.

    Mass heal has been boosted for pretty much everyone not decked out in T3 alchemicals. This is a good thing(TM) for pretty much everyone but the most obstinate grinders out there, who should be the ones most compensated for their effort.

    Moreover, Heal is worse for a lot of level 20s too, as I will show in a minute. I'd like to note that, to break even with the new system, if you have empower healing, it's very hard, because the empower healing multiplier has itself been reduced.

    The previous multiplier for Heal (and mass heal if you had an alchemical weapon) was 1.9 (superior devotion gear and life magic enhancements) * 1.5 (empower healing) = 2.85, which is the equivalent of 185 spell power. Discounting empower healing and enhancements: 185 - 75 - 80/2 = 70 effective spell power. This means you would need 140 devotion spell power in your gear to compensate for it, that is, a +120 devotion, +21 implement bonus staff just so you can break even. This is ridiculously harsh, especially since this does not exist in level 20 gear, and makes it even worse for clerics/souls that want to swing melee weapons.

    I'd seriously suggest this 50% multiplier is raised a bit, so that a level 20 character with 90 devotion (appropriate gear for a level 20 character) slotted gets the same benefit as before.

    90 * x + 80 * x + 75 = 185
    x ~ 0.65 ~ 65%.

    If this base 50% multiplier were raised to 65%, people with level appropriate gear and empower healing would get the same benefit as before, and people without empower healing but with level appropriate gear would see a greater boost due to the way empower healing works, which I believe to be more in line with your original intent.

    We’d prefer to boost cure spells as mentioned in the response to question 5.



    8. I went to all the time and effort to make my Alchemical Dev IX shields because of the increasing level cap, hp, and damage I knew was coming in U14. So, what now? What do we do to compensate for the loss of healing?

    How has it actually affected gameplay? How much of a healing loss have you experienced? Either healing is not difficult (in which little further change is needed) or some adjustments on our part is necessary.


    9. With the massive hp inflation from expansion, heal (not mass heal) is relatively less powerful (hp incrased by 20-50% while heal is the same as before). While you could before refill someone in one cast, it is no longer possible. To compensate people need to slot more healing amp... But we know that some people already don't carry some needed items (such as fortification), is it really wise to add a new must have?

    Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.

    10. Does the Light Monk Healing Finisher get full Spell Power from Devotion items?

    Yes.


    11. Please check Silver Fire spell 200% sure it's broken. Description says about 100-160 dmg base - we are getting 50% less. I would also like to ask why only Druids have new divine spells and why Avenging light was nerfed by 50% in u14.1?

    Silver Fire is not a player spell. It’s ‘Searing Light’. The description was accidentally overwritten by the NPC ability “Silver Fire”. Searing Light is dealing the proper amount of damage and the description will be back to normal as of patch 2.

    12. Will heal and mass heal always be last if our hp goes past 2k and stuff like that? i would hope that you will boost the % so we can heal our toons hitting those insane hp ranges because before motu a heal or mass heal would nearly heal them.

    Now it barely touches 25% of their life meaning you need to spend more sp to heal someone back to full. So im just saying will we see a % increase if hp keeps going up because honestly 400hp wont cut it if their hp at 2k.

    See answer to #9.


    13. Why you decided to make wizard PrE slas reduced spell power, instead of using 1d3 damage per level and full spell power? Could you just half the damage/heal of the original spell/SLA and leave spell power alone?

    Spell damage dice are not very granular, so any adjustment is a large change, while spell power coefficients can be set to any percentage we need. It’s a much simpler and more effective tool for balancing spell effects.
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  2. #2
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Spellpower+wands/scrolls: WAI? If so, I could actually see those finally being a decent(ish) platsink for the general population aside from heal-scrolls.

  3. #3
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    thanks for boosting cure spells.

    Any thoughts of removing the .5 penalty for using empower healing metafeat with heals? It is a feat spent after all

  4. #4
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    Does this apply to just the single target versions, or the mass versions as well?

    My Warchanter would definitely appreciate a boost to her Mass Cure Moderates.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Oh mah gawd, a dev actually read what I posted. Makes it feel worth the trouble to keep posting in here. I actually like the idea behind your solution: boosting the single-cures feels kind of right. I'll have to wait until it goes live and see how that plays out before saying any more though.

    Also, prepare to see a number of raging WF arcanes.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    I would personally argue that Heal, Mass Heal and Reconstruct should gain the full benefits of Spellpower for various reasons:

    1) Heal/Heal, Mass are meant to Beneft from Empower Healing, The reason given for why Spellpower was doubled was to compensate for the weakening of the metamagic feats, this should obviously include Empower Healing and everything it effected and were meant to get a slight improvement. Currently Heal is effectively getting the same benefit from Spellpower as it used to get from the enhancements, but it's also getting less benefit from Empower Healing (old +50%, new +37%) which itself was altered in respect to healing provided.
    Old +40% enhancements, +60% from Potency = +100% (available at level 14)
    150 +100% = 300
    Empower Healing = +50%
    300 + 50% = 450

    Current +80 Spellpower From enhancements + 90 Spellpower from Devotion Item = 170 Spellpower (available at level 20)
    Halved = 85 Increase
    +75 Spellpower from Empower healing
    = 160% Increase
    150 + 160% = 390(Overall -60 Healing)

    Suggested +80 Spellpower From enhancements + 90 Spellpower from Devotion Item +75 Spellpower from Empower healing = 245 Spellpower
    150 + 245% = 517 (Overall +67 Healing)
    2) Reconstruct and Repair spells are intrinsically weaker than their counterpart Heal/Cure spells as they don't remove the debuffs that Heal does, they can't benefit from Empower healing and they are limited to a much smaller percentage of the playerbase, a playerbase that can not get the full benefits of Heal, thus it needs the extra boost to compensate.

    3) It's counter-intuitive having some effects not gain the full benefits of Spellpower;. Knowing that 1 Spellpower is 1% extra damage/healing is simple and makes a lot of sense.
    However 1 Spellpower normally being 1% extra damage/healing, but sometimes 0.5% better or maybe 1.15% better is very confusing. It might make it easier for the Dev's to balance effects but it makes it a lot harder for players to work out what things do and how much benefit they provide. I would rather see Heal dropped down to 5 healing Per caster level and the level cap on the healing removed and for it to gain the full benefit from Spellpower, than for it to gain half the benefit of spellpower.

    4) Warforged keep getting shafted please stop it. Like seriously, Stop it!
    Last edited by Ebondevil; 07-20-2012 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Updated Figures to correct a mistake

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    *snip*
    Madfloyd, with all due respect, I think you guys are way overthinking the whole spellpower thing. I feel it might be prudent to remind you of K.I.S.S.

    Keep it Simple, Stupid.


    The more special cases you have for spell power, the more complicated it's going to get.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I did not make it through the entire thread, but here are some answers for now:
    3. It feels like, as a Cleric, we are being pushed into one roll or another, which I despise. I don't like weapon swapping, especially when it means a quarterstaff, to get the same result as I used to

    You may want to find another item slot where you can get Devotion in that case. You can easily find rings or helmets with Devotion, and named items that fill other body slots have Devotion as well.


    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    Thanks for answering my questions! I would love to see some named devotion items (other than weapons and the Epic Mask of Comedy) with greater than +60.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MadFloyd;4594061][I]

    9. With the massive hp inflation from expansion, heal (not mass heal) is relatively less powerful (hp incrased by 20-50% while heal is the same as before). While you could before refill someone in one cast, it is no longer possible. To compensate people need to slot more healing amp... But we know that some people already don't carry some needed items (such as fortification), is it really wise to add a new must have?

    Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.

    I had 3 high ac toons that took very little damage before the update, now i'm taking a beating in the 3 pre raid quests. My pally ac can reach 108 which is higher than it used to be although not close to the 139 that i'm being told is the point where it's worthwhile. This has been discussed, but running epic hard the mobs are 5-6 lvl's above us probably negates a lot of the defensive percentage. it was much better before. The only benefit appears to be physical resistance and I do see some dodges once in a great while. Giving us dodge bonus to ac back would help and make dodge items worth wearing and not game breaking since it's capped by armor. I'm not swapping out something for a just a 1 or 2% dodge bonus.
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  10. #10
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    I realize you stated you didn't make it through the whole thread. But there are a few new comments in light of the responses you've made so far. Also, I'd like to point to my post here for further details, and because of that will use short versions here. I've taken the liberty of shortening your reply as well, using the question numbers you provided, to try and cut down the post size too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    1.No this isn’t that difficult and we will pursue it.
    This would be very useful, and in fact if it wasn't done I would have been very disappointed. Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?
    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    This change will only put Reconstruct in an even worse position than Heal is in now. Detailed in my post with specifics, that position is "really horrible". Under ideal conditions it would land for around 388 at level 25, which is just not anywhere near appropriate for the only large repair spell in game. It needs to be left off the list, or (preferably) both it and Heal need a better than 0.5 coefficient. Frankly, as rightful as I think the above notation for Rune Arms is, I feel wrongful about this change.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    5. While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).
    This might benefit Paladins and Rangers, who were horribly hit by the changes to Devotion itemization, but its not going to matter one whit to anyone used to casting Heal and Mass Heal on a regular basis, unless it is extended to affect the Mass Cure versions. As Mass Cures are the one thing which was arguably made better by all the previous changes, I see little reason to add even more now. Bottom line, this change is good, and useful to some classes... but it has absolutely nothing to do with assisting the Heal and Mass Heal users, whose position is being used as justification for the change. In other words, saying this is a fix on behalf of Heal is foolish, but that doesn't mean its not a useful fix on behalf of Hybrid classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    7.We’d prefer to boost cure spells as mentioned in the response to question 5.
    This line is what I mean in the above comment on #5... preference has little to do with it... a tweak to CLW isn't going to replace heal, and I'll be honest even feels slightly insulting to suggest. Even CCW won't come close to Heal, although it may result in essentially having two timers for weaker spells, which combine into something similar to the pre-change version. That is, obviously, still a much weaker setup for a player to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    8.How has it actually affected gameplay? How much of a healing loss have you experienced? Either healing is not difficult (in which little further change is needed) or some adjustments on our part is necessary.
    Again, as detailed in my linked post, there are two main effects:
    1) Anyone relying on Heal and Mass Heal as staple spells is essentially forced to take Empowered Healing to maintain their returns. This has a very large halo effect with the importance of feats increasing due to epic feat prereqs, to say nothing of any punitive effect on builds which could previously reach those values without it.
    2) With player HP seemingly at 600-1500 at lv25 across almost all classes/races/builds, and the value of Heal being dropped from ~570 to ~380-540, it can easily take 2-3 times the casts for the same effect. In other words, previously the general HP range was 400-1000, meaning 1-2 casts to heal anyone; now its more like 2-4 casts to heal anyone. Twice the casts out of combat means only more mana, but in combat it means twice the real time, and half the efficiency. Obviously the intention was to put more weight on Mass Cures, so I won't go into further detail here, but I firmly believe you may have over-reacted on that... proportionally lowering the in-combat effects on the main healing spell by essentially holding or reducing its effects, while everything else scaled up, is something I hope to find was unintentional... at least on this scale (slightly worse is ok, twice as bad is rough, etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    9.Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.
    Again, after referencing both my linked post, and the previous answer to #8, it comes across very poorly saying "we know Heal is worse, but everyone should have AC now so you don't need to heal as much". Um, that's not really how it plays out...

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    13.Spell damage dice are not very granular, so any adjustment is a large change, while spell power coefficients can be set to any percentage we need. It’s a much simpler and more effective tool for balancing spell effects.
    I don't think the dice should have been changed at all (ie, I agree with your response, redoing the dice is not helpful), but it relates to something I asked specifically in my linked post so I'll ask again... why the complete turnaround on this stance? Eladrin specifically said PMs would see an increase, now we are being specifically told its intentional there is little/no increase. Is there some overall design direction we should be aware of... changes happen but not usually a full 180 degrees.

    Thanks for taking the time, I know I'm being tough but it is very difficult to see everything else go up with work, parallel to needing to work to get back to where you were (if its even possible, fitting Empowered Healing can be rough on some builds), on what is already one of the most stressful things in game. Coupled with the drastic design changes (here and elsewhere, I just haven't had time to make that post yet, but as one example so many of the new things disallow saves, which was the whole point of several other changes like Poison... they don't make sense alongside each other) which stress my belief these have been thought all the way through. I understand, and even support, the whole "spells need coefficients" concept... I just do not think that Heal and PM SLAs, were necessarily good targets of one as severe as 50%. Cheers.
    Last edited by bbqzor; 07-17-2012 at 08:16 PM. Reason: browser error, fixed now

  11. #11
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    I had 3 high ac toons that took very little damage before the update, now i'm taking a beating in the 3 pre raid quests. My pally ac can reach 108 which is higher than it used to be although not close to the 139 that i'm being told is the point where it's worthwhile. This has been discussed, but running epic hard the mobs are 5-6 lvl's above us probably negates a lot of the defensive percentage. it was much better before. The only benefit appears to be physical resistance and I do see some dodges once in a great while. Giving us dodge bonus to ac back would help and make dodge items worth wearing and not game breaking since it's capped by armor. I'm not swapping out something for a just a 1 or 2% dodge bonus.
    That is something worth mentioning, our character sheet talks about 'defence chance Vs things of the same level, which is almost always useless because enemy CRs are all over the place. You expect us to take less hits, thats fine, but at the same time you bumped up the amount of damage taken per hit (especially on Elite) while not allowing our main healing spells (heal and mass heal) to scale at a similar rate.

    I also agree with what someone said earlier, it seems like this whole spellpower system was put in to make things easier to understand, then you implement a million exceptions to the rule of 1sp = 1% damage, and THEN you decide that it's not important to have this number actually listed anywhere. It's been this way for a long time with stuff like spell penetration, where I need to go over my gear, feats and enhancements to add up what my spell pen is for a certain spell. It's getting getting really silly, nearly any other game (online or standalone RPG) has *all* that kind of information available at the press of a button if required.

  12. #12
    Community Member goblean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Madfloyd, with all due respect, I think you guys are way overthinking the whole spellpower thing. I feel it might be prudent to remind you of K.I.S.S.

    Keep it Simple, Stupid.

    The more special cases you have for spell power, the more complicated it's going to get.
    this /signed

    One of the reasons for this change was to simplify all the sources of how spell damage may stack. Now we get all sorts of various little stacking bonuses that need to be managed, and exceptions to rules that keep changing and increasing in number. We now have this overly complicated system, that I would have no desire explaining to a new player. One of the things I always think of is how do you explain this to a person with no understanding of the current system. And no just saying get the highest spell power item you can, doesn't cut it.

  13. #13
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.
    AC is not scaling well from Epic Normal to Epic Elite.

    A just-dinged-20 in random lootgen gear (target audience for EN) on a defensively specced toon might have 90 AC and be missed 60% of the time by the CR 21 mobs in EN quests.

    OTOH, a 23 in nearly best-in-slot gear and a level 5 Destiny with one or two defensive twists (target audience for EE) on a defensively specced toon might have 130 AC and be missed 25% of the time by the CR 48 mobs in EE quests.

    CR bloat on EE and the massive To-Hit bloat that goes with it make AC unreliable at best in EE. PRR does scale well with difficulty setting but it doesn't scale with gear at all.


    My suggestion on healing and spellpower is simple: Change Healing Amplification from a "Heals hit you for X% more" to "Heals hit you for an additional X points". That latter would make Cure potions worth something at high level, keep Heal in check, and would be easier to understand too. Plus you could then add higher Healing Amp items without breaking the game. You would need to have a lower healing amp coefficient on Radiant Servant Auras and Druid HoTs possibly (getting hit for 125 a tick by an Aura might be silly), but that could be worked out on Lamannia.
    Last edited by sirgog; 07-17-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    My suggestion on healing and spellpower is simple: Change Healing Amplification from a "Heals hit you for X% more" to "Heals hit you for an additional X points". That latter would make Cure potions worth something at high level, keep Heal in check, and would be easier to understand too. Plus you could then add higher Healing Amp items without breaking the game. You would need to have a lower healing amp coefficient on Radiant Servant Auras and Druid HoTs possibly (getting hit for 125 a tick by an Aura might be silly), but that could be worked out on Lamannia.
    It would also help with the weird and confusing stacking with regard to healing amp (especially when something like the fleshmakers necklace is involved)

    To be honest, you would almost be better off playing around with the numbers given by the spells themselves to make it give the numbers you want and leave spell power at 100% for all spells.

  15. #15
    Community Member nivarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    9. With the massive hp inflation from expansion, heal (not mass heal) is relatively less powerful (hp incrased by 20-50% while heal is the same as before). While you could before refill someone in one cast, it is no longer possible. To compensate people need to slot more healing amp... But we know that some people already don't carry some needed items (such as fortification), is it really wise to add a new must have?

    Heal still increases as you get into the expansion pack and get better gear. Keep in mind that it’s not all about what tools the healer has but what tools the players taking damage have. With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously.
    > With the AC changes we expect players in the highest level/difficulty content to take fewer hits than they did previously

    Your answer ignores the fact that heal is not the usual healing spell you use in an epic elite run. In an EE quest the main sources of healing are heal scrolls, FvS capstone and renewal (unless you want to blow pots) and mass heal from time to time.
    Heal is an emergency heal and as such it needs to be able to be big enough to absorb the next damage spike. And when you are in need of an emergency heal, it usually means that your AC, PRR and Saves are not sufficient to reduce incoming damage to manageable values (otherwise you would be healed by a free heal).

    But maybe the issue is that since heal is already a cheap HP per SP spell that doesn't have a long cooldown you don't want it to be used as an emergency heal. That's fine, but just give us another tool for emergencies then (no not unyielding sovereignty, 5 minutes cooldown is way too long). Until we have that, heal has to be powerful enough to be the only emergency healing spell in the divine arsenal.

    Note: Three examples of what emergency heal spells could look like... This is not very D&D like but with the game moving away from core D&D it may be time to borrow some new mechanisms from others MMO.
    Power word Heal: Automatically quickened, 100SP, 30 second cooldown. Heal 10HP per caster level. If target is below 50% HP, heals an additional 10HP per caster level. If target is below 25% HP heal an extra 10HP per caster level.
    Devout sacrifice: Automatically quickened, 10 SP, 15 seconds cooldown. Caster loses 50% of his current HP. For each HP lost, target is healed 2HP. This spell generates increased threat.
    Unyielding protection: 75 SP, 30 seconds cooldown. Target is healed for 10 HP per caster level. If target is below 50% HP, it gains a shield that will absorb the next 300 damage from any source. The shield dissipated after 3 seconds if it hasn't absorbed all damage.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3. It feels like, as a Cleric, we are being pushed into one roll or another, which I despise. I don't like weapon swapping, especially when it means a quarterstaff, to get the same result as I used to

    You may want to find another item slot where you can get Devotion in that case. You can easily find rings or helmets with Devotion, and named items that fill other body slots have Devotion as well.
    Why, oh why, is there no named item with devotion in the expansion?
    With the change to spell power you knew this would be a needed item for a lot of divines, yet we have to rely on the random generator to get some crappy devotion helm; or to use old named who end up with subpar values of devotion.

    Please, I dunno if I must beg, but for next update add a new devotion named item, this will make all divines happy.
    Last edited by nivarch; 07-18-2012 at 06:28 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member ShadowFlash's Avatar
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    Simply Stating that melee cleric's will have to slot devotion somewhere else sounds really nice...except..

    Pre-U14: Base*(1+meta)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with RSII empower healing, clickies, and Life IV: 150*1.75*(.75+.4+1) = 564.375

    U14: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (100), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    150 + 150 + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*150 = 465

    So, based off this, RSII Heal hits for 18% or so less. The problem is, even this gear (120 sp staff) is not available to anyone level 20 or below resulting in a grind to re-reach mediocrity. Worse, the Pre-U14 numbers were attainable at LEVEL 14! what this means, for a melee cleric to reach comprable "heal spell" capabilities, at LEAST 7 levels are needed to be able to equip any reasonably close gear, just to break even(ish).

    You're not going to change this....I get it...these are not the droids you're looking for...smoke and mirrors...everything is fine, it's your gear...moving on...

    Let's address the RS burst next...
    Level 17 Cleric (leaving 3 to represent common melee splashing)=CL19
    1-8+1 per CL = 4.5+19 = 23.5 base
    All Meta's (which even melee cleric usually take)

    Pre-U14: Base*(1+meta's)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with RSII empower healing, clickies, and Life IV: 23.5*3.25*(.75+.4+1) = 164.2

    U14: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    23.5 + (23.5 x 3.5) + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*23.5 = 131.6

    So, based off this, RSII Burst hits for 20% or so less. This is another huge one for leveling, as it practically makes the burst useless using highest available devotion gear ML's while leveling 14-23ish, and even 23+ will be underpowered, and again, not possible to even reach a net zero without the higher sp bonuses found on staffs, further restricting melee clerics to weapon swapping

    Coincidentely, the Unyielding Sentinel T4 "light the dark" is so much better than the RS burst, further marginalizing a core PrE ability. I certainly feel light the dark is great as-is, and the burst should be improved.

    All formula's used have been tested as accurate with varying spell power item/clickie combinations.

    ShadowFlash
    Last edited by ShadowFlash; 07-17-2012 at 10:19 PM.
    All the math your brain can handle concerning Divine Punishment
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344769

  17. #17
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    4. Why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    This was missed and will be in Update 15.
    OK so its an oversight that will be corrected -- fair enough.

    Quid Pro Quo: Since you stripped WF of their Pois/Dis immunities (and have confirmed that we are NOT going to keep the extra heals from Recon as a balancing effect), then the top-tier Repair-line spell (Recon) should include some "extra" benefits like the top-tier Cure-line spell (Heal). In particular, Remove Disease, Poison, and Curse. Get rid of that silly buff it gives (which is useless, especially given the fact that the spell is almost always cast by a player that can ALSO cast Haste), and replace it with one that wipes the Rust Monster stun and gives a temporary immunity to it (similar to the current Remove Poison timer).

    And no, giving WF "sort of" immunities and bonuses to saves is NOT the same as actually BEING immune.

    Also, you should consider upping the LVL cap on Heal to match M.Heal. This would give most divines the bone they are looking for -- the ability to raise those red bars a bit more, using something other than just M.Heal. In raids and hard 6-man content, M.Heal is the go-to spell anyway, so giving Heal this buff would be a nice token.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, Mad.

  18. #18
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post


    2. So many have been noting that divine light spells are only getting .5 as well, is this a bug?

    The only light damage spell that is getting half spell power is Summon Archon, which is on the list we provided in the forum post.

    This is not correct. I have THE best gear possible and my numbers are substantially smaller post update. Please check again.
    GROAN-1 (Melee/Casting Horc FVS)

  19. #19
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    13. Why you decided to make wizard PrE slas reduced spell power, instead of using 1d3 damage per level and full spell power? Could you just half the damage/heal of the original spell/SLA and leave spell power alone?

    Spell damage dice are not very granular, so any adjustment is a large change, while spell power coefficients can be set to any percentage we need. It’s a much simpler and more effective tool for balancing spell effects.
    One thing I will request, purely as a selfish thing, so no real skin off my nose if not: auto-heighten the slas. No metas with half spellpower on save-for-halfs with no heighten means you'll see a lot of low-ball numbers until you've got hefty DC overkill.

  20. #20
    Community Member Theolin's Avatar
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    How does the new spell power interact with the Arti infusion healing spells, it seems to have really borked them badly. I do wish my memory was better but this is what I remember.

    Have a 13/6 cleric/arti - same gear & same enhancements, using the level 1,2,&3 arti healing infusion spells:

    Before: with a 75% pot running & empower healing & RS2 I was getting about 40,70,100
    Now: with just the sora kell set(I know I need better) which I believe is 40 spell power & empower healing & RS2 they are hitting for 25,35,55

    Which seems about right by the numbers if healing is 50% spell power added

    Which if I can do the math correctly & understand how it works & remember the old numbers
    Old: 1.75[75% clickie]*1.75[RS2]*(pot healing) = 3.2*(pot)
    New: with a outrageous guess at best gear[100 devotion item]
    New: 100[given]+100[RS2]+(100[Gear]/2)*(pot) = 2.5*(pot)

    so (3.2-2.5)/3.2 = ~ 22% reduction in healing,
    but more likely to be worse due to only being able to find about 80 spell power non hand items

    (The reason for harping on the NON hand items is for raids I was doing rune arm + scrolls + arti infusions, so I have no place to put an item there), & this Character is now parked as it does not work at all due to the changes.

    So I do believe the numbers are correct that it is spitting out, it is just a huge decrease in healing, even if I had a piece of awesome gear that probably does not even exist for 100 spell power I would still be nerfed by 22% or so ....

    Now as a side note I did notice a large increase in the healing of the cleric mass cure spells.


    TLDR: Check the nerf to arti infusion healing spells, was this intentional?
    Last edited by Theolin; 07-17-2012 at 11:24 PM.

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