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  1. #1
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    Default Ranged ki weapons should also generate ki

    I know a lot of people have gotten used to the problem however I still feel ranged ki weapons should generate ki on hit. Not just bows if you have the feat but also ninja stars (unless they already do). The fact that they become ki weapons should not just mean you don't lose ki holding them and stay centered when if you don't get ki by using them then you lose game mechanics like 10k stars and other ki based abilities.

    I feel origionally they didn't include ranged weapons to generate ki on hit because of problems with ranged some how but I could be mistaken. However it has been quite a while and I still feel its a problem and I play this character a lot. Its time I raised the issue again and point this out.

    Would it make all monk ranged (throwing stars or bows) over powered to allow them to generate ki? I feel it would just improve the feel of making a ranged based character that uses this mechanic and thats about it.

    It may be that we are a minority so I understand in that case if it hasn't gotten a lot of attention but I would like it to be considered.

    With all the ranged to hit problems reciently I hope they might consider giving us a small incentive.

    what problems some might ask
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4588855


    --------------
    Edit:
    On 2nd thought an incentive that bennefited everyone equally impacted would be better in general but I still hope for a fix to the ki based system as well.
    Last edited by DustTheWind; 07-15-2012 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Ravoc-DDO's Avatar
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    Imo, 10k stars should be reverted back to shurikens only and see those boosted instead. Or it should at least be put on the same cooldown as manyshot.

    You ranged monkeys have gotten quite spoiled as is already. Stop destroying rangers.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Imo, 10k stars should be reverted back to shurikens only and see those boosted instead. Or it should at least be put on the same cooldown as manyshot.

    You ranged monkeys have gotten quite spoiled as is already. Stop destroying rangers.
    Multi shot is not just limited to rangers. 10k stars may be limited to monks. But even then almost anyone can splash monk but they don't have to splash ranger for multishot. If you splash monk you then you give up multiple abilities in return such as self healing or a capstone ect. Which is part of the decision making about if it is worth it to you or not to splash and give up other abilities. If you want to change how it works I would suggest you make your own thread about it. However multi shot is not the subject as it dosn't use ki. One could also argue that multishot should be ble to be active 24/7 as in D&D but I won't go there.

    About the statement that monks shouldn't use bows. The feat about being centered with a bow is not for clerics only. You may not be familiar with the D&D version of a Zen Archer. Hence the name for the Zen Archery Feat.
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_(3.5e_Class)
    In other words you are saying you don't think Zen Archers should exist in the game. While that may be your opinion I am sure I could find others who would disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

    But what really matters here is a broken aspect of being a zenn archer. While it relies on ki for Zenn archery to work by using Zenn Archery you gain no ki. See the konundrum. Only untill very late levels when you have high levels of water stance can you then hope to have some form of passive ki while using zenn archery. Thats kind of a problem in my opinion.
    Last edited by DustTheWind; 07-15-2012 at 10:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Ravoc-DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DustTheWind View Post
    Multi shot is not just limited to rangers. 10k stars may be limited to monks. But even then almost anyone can splash monk but they don't have to splash ranger for multishot. If you splash monk you then you give up multiple abilities in return such as self healing or a capstone ect. Which is part of the decision making about if it is worth it to you or not to splash and give up other abilities. If you want to change how it works I would suggest you make your own thread about it. However multi shot is not the subject as it dosn't use ki. One could also argue that multishot should be ble to be active 24/7 as in D&D but I won't go there.
    My problem is that Zen Archer monks are - noobs aside - about the only (capable) archers left, which clearly indicates an imbalance favoring monks. At present day, the ranger class effectively stops at L6, and the Zen Archer builds have significantly contributed to that.
    10k Stars should not be available alongside Manyshot. Monks get it cheaply at L6, just like rangers get Manyshot at L6. If you disagree because Manyshot can be taken by anyone, then for the sake of balance, a more symmetrical solution would be to make 10k stars available to everyone non-monk, as well as make it work based on DEX.

    Quote Originally Posted by DustTheWind View Post
    About the statement that monks shouldn't use bows. The feat about being centered with a bow is not for clerics only. You may not be familiar with the D&D version of a Zen Archer. Hence the name for the Zen Archery Feat.
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_(3.5e_Class)
    In other words you are saying you don't think Zen Archers should exist in the game. While that may be your opinion I am sure I could find others who would disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.
    You are twisting words.
    I am well aware that Zen Archer exists in PnP, but that doesn't mean that 10k stars should be bow compatible. This is also not PnP but DDO, and being an MMO balance should come first imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by DustTheWind View Post
    But what really matters here is a broken aspect of being a zenn archer. While it relies on ki for Zenn archery to work by using Zenn Archery you gain no ki. See the konundrum. Only untill very late levels when you have high levels of water stance can you then hope to have some form of passive ki while using zenn archery. Thats kind of a problem in my opinion.
    As for your conundrum, gaining ki on ranged attacks would mean that, under ideal circumstances and taking into account Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot and 10k Stars, you would be at max ki at all times; basically allowing you to gain ki to do things like throwing an occasional ToD and whatnot without even working for it with - you know - your fists. Gaining ki on ranged attacks would be an insult to the monk class.

  5. #5
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    The grandmaster of flowers ED has an ability that (as of u14.1) gives you 50-125ki every 3 min. This has been sufficient for most of my monkcher friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DustTheWind View Post
    I know a lot of people have gotten used to the problem however I still feel ranged ki weapons should generate ki on hit. Not just bows if you have the feat but also ninja stars (unless they already do). The fact that they become ki weapons should not just mean you don't lose ki holding them and stay centered when if you don't get ki by using them then you lose game mechanics like 10k stars and other ki based abilities.

    I feel origionally they didn't include ranged weapons to generate ki on hit because of problems with ranged some how but I could be mistaken. However it has been quite a while and I still feel its a problem and I play this character a lot. Its time I raised the issue again and point this out.

    Would it make all monk ranged (throwing stars or bows) over powered to allow them to generate ki? I feel it would just improve the feel of making a ranged based character that uses this mechanic and thats about it.

    It may be that we are a minority so I understand in that case if it hasn't gotten a lot of attention but I would like it to be considered.

    With all the ranged to hit problems reciently I hope they might consider giving us a small incentive.

    what problems some might ask
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4588855


    --------------
    Edit:
    On 2nd thought an incentive that bennefited everyone equally impacted would be better in general but I still hope for a fix to the ki based system as well.
    +1
    /signed

  7. #7
    Community Member Arovin's Avatar
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    I would like to agree with this but only after other forms of range combat see a buff. I would say hold off until we see how the new enhancement system will help all ranged character be effective. The devs have stated that ranged is getting a buff with the new enhancement system, we just don't know how yet.

    Once ranged combat in general has been balanced, then make it so ranged attacks generate ki.

  8. #8
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    Well I see where Ravoc and Arovin are coming from now. There is sort of an imballance in ranged such that the feats are so tight that it limits who can be ranged and to what degree. Not to mention what types of ranged are effective. Standard crossbows or throwing stars for example. We were lucky to get the addition of Artificers which helped offset that imballance a bit. It's amazing how effective casters are at ranged when they get to level but again they have sp limits.

    It would would be nice however for there to be a passive ki regen that didn't depend on your to hit with the bow. Maybe as an enhancement or stance or something (not sure how that would work). but at early levels not level 25 or 16 and would come when you pick up the enhancement. But then again I do wonder what kind of big changes might be coming down the line soon.
    Last edited by DustTheWind; 07-18-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    /not signed.

    As pointed out, 10k star archers are good enough as is in theory.

    Instead, fix the things that aren't working properly such as
    • Archers Focus (deactivates on manyshot)
    • Proficiency: Longbow and Shortbow (no +20% hit bonus)
    • Shiradi Champion abilities not being effected by spell power when firing a bow (apparently they'd like them to be which can only be a buff if everything else is left as is)
    • Alacrity effects not granting their full bonus (usually 2/3 instead except haste which is typed as +22% for ranged which ends up granting +15% after applying the 2/3)
    • Not being able to create bow+arrow weapon sets
    • Not being able to equip arrows out a quiver
    • Arrows filling up your inventory when swapping between different types


    Did I miss anything?

    With Epic Destinies you can play a full time ranged character (using +2 passive Ki regen from twisted Enlightenment) with 450-500+ DPS (according to recent calcs linked in my build thread), what more do you want?

    Regarding build variety, there is still plenty, I'm playing a 12 rogue/7 monk/1 artificer Arcane Archer at the moment and loving it besides the proficiency issue, still elite streaking at level 17 (all vale completed on elite) and keeping up just fine.
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    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Did I miss anything?
    yes,
    any mention of the crossbows combat
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  11. #11
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Imo, 10k stars should be reverted back to shurikens only and see those boosted instead. Or it should at least be put on the same cooldown as manyshot.

    You ranged monkeys have gotten quite spoiled as is already. Stop destroying rangers.
    Uh, NO.

    Ten Thousand Stars is the one saving grace right now for folks that would like to be playing full-time archers. The problem isn't that 10K Stars is too good, it's that there aren't any other options!

    I've said in another thread on the same topic that I'd like to see more tools come out for archers that result in something along the lines of:

    • Monk/Zen Archer-based: Highest rate of fire with bows, non-archery related utility (Fast Movement, Abundant Step, etc...). I'd like to see ranged weapons work like any other monk weapon (generate Ki, use any strikes and finishers that are not unarmed-only).
    • Rangers: Ranged utility (AA arrows), big bursts (Slayer arrows), easy access, and should have some spell-based special effects, like an AoE archer shot, Shiradi Champion-like archer CC (Pin Down should really be a Ranger spell). Deepwood Sniper could be the ranged version of the Assassin PrE with instakill ability perhaps, though I'd like to see it differentiated, and for Assassin Rogues to be able to go ranged.
    • Fighter: Tactical archer. They should have higher damage per shot than rangers and monks, but a slower attack speed when not boosting, but their defining feature should be access to ranged tactics abilities like Stunning Blow, Trip, Sunder.
    • Barbarian: Should have the highest damage/shot, but limited access to archery feats.Essentially just bludgeoning enemies to death from further away than they do now.
    • Rogues: Somewhere in the middle of that, with high damage/shot, but dependent upon distance and aggro management.

    The problem isn't that 10K Stars is too good, it's that none of the other archery playstyles/versions has received any support.



    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    /not signed.

    As pointed out, 10k star archers are good enough as is in theory.

    Instead, fix the things that aren't working properly such as
    • Archers Focus (deactivates on manyshot) I though this had been stated by a dev as being intentional back in development. Other issues here are that when you activate 10K Stars, this goes on cooldown, so you have to turn this on before activating 10K to get them to work together. Could really be more forgiving on movement.
    • Proficiency: Longbow and Shortbow (no +20% hit bonus)
    • Shiradi Champion abilities not being effected by spell power when firing a bow (apparently they'd like them to be which can only be a buff if everything else is left as is) I think this is fairly minor, and if it works the way it is for casters, it creates new problems, as archers then have to find places to stick Spell Power items.
    • Alacrity effects not granting their full bonus (usually 2/3 instead except haste which is typed as +22% for ranged which ends up granting +15% after applying the 2/3) This is part of the entire problem that is ranged rate of fire, in my opinion. The whole system needs an overhaul.
    • Not being able to create bow+arrow weapon sets Agreed.
    • Not being able to equip arrows out a quiver Agreed.
    • Arrows filling up your inventory when swapping between different types Agreed.

    Did I miss anything?
    • Bows not working with Grandmaster's +.5/1/1.5[W] when centered.
    • Bows (and shurikens) really should be generating Ki and should be able to use monk strikes and finishers.
    • Shots just disappearing and not registering entirely.
    • Archery DPS when not running Manyshot or 10K Stars is too low. Yes, your DPS can average out to being respectable, but during those down periods, you feel like a burden (many people swap to melee, but spending basically all of your feats on one combat style shouldn't still leave you feeling forced to swap so often).
    • Lots of effects don't work with ranged weapons.
    • [quuote]

    With Epic Destinies you can play a full time ranged character (using +2 passive Ki regen from twisted Enlightenment) [/quote] Ok...I'm not seeing this. When I look at Grandmaster, I'm seeing +Ki and Concentration/+Ki and Concentration/+Ki, Concentration, and +1 passive for tiers 1, 2 and 3 respectively. In testing, while in Water III stance at zero Ki and with that ability ranked up, I have +2 passive Ki gen, which is 1 from Water and 1 from Enlightenment. GMoF also gives +1 passive at rank 4 or 5 I think, but that isn't twistable.
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  12. #12
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    yes,
    any mention of the crossbows combat
    The problems here is that repeaters are better than any other ranged weapon (except during Manyshot) and other crossbows are garbage, and that even with repeaters being pretty solid, they just aren't strong enough on their own. Artificers and Mechanics make fairly good use of them, though. I wouldn't say they need a big boost in that regard, though it would be nice if other characters could make use of them.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Ki/Chi/Qi is generated via touch. So a bow cant generate chi because the arrow it shoots isnt connected to the user when it hits the enemy.

    "Hikari datte, yami datte, kitto"

    Into light, into darkness, surely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    being an MMO balance should come first imo.
    I think that ship has long sailed.

    Ranged ki generation? Sure, why not? Personally I think the entire ki system used for monks was a bad idea, but heck, as long as we're stuck with it, might as well extend it to "ranged ki weapons".

  15. #15
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    The problems here is that repeaters are better than any other ranged weapon (except during Manyshot) and other crossbows are garbage, and that even with repeaters being pretty solid, they just aren't strong enough on their own. Artificers and Mechanics make fairly good use of them, though. I wouldn't say they need a big boost in that regard, though it would be nice if other characters could make use of them.
    Other characters can make use of them just not at high levels. Realistically, crossbows are mechanical weapons designed to turn any peasant into a threat. A screaming heavy repeating crossbow of bleed with holy arrows makes carnifex look like a club of the silver flame in the ease with which you can blast through the low levels.

    Enlightenment grants +1 passive at tier 2 and an additional +1 Passive at tier 3 according to all sources. Do you only have tier 2?

    In quests the downtimes don't matter much in most cases if you can time to be running between encounters during those downtimes (possibly dragging mobs with you), in raids you have archers focus. If neither applies then it's melee or subpar pewpew time but doesn't seem that big a deal to me.

    Archers Focus deactivates when you manyshot but continues to swirl so before you can use it again you have to turn it off and on again, this makes it close to unusable.

    I don't think Ki is needed from ranged attacks. At the very least right now it would completely invalidate any non-centered bow user so at least put it off the table until a ranged overhaul to balance archery more generally.
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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Enlightenment grants +1 passive at tier 2 and an additional +1 Passive at tier 3 according to all sources. Do you only have tier 2?
    Have you looked at ranks 2 and 3 in-game? No mention of +1 passive at rank 2, and like I said, at rank 3, I only have a passive Ki of +2 while in Water III.


    Note in the picture: I have tier 3 of Enlightenment, it shows only +1 passive Ki in the description, and with 3 of 310 Ki, and no Water stance, I have only +1 Ki regeneration.

    While I'm in GMoF, I've dropped Water III and am in Earth III full-time, leaning on Inner Focus to keep the Ki flowing. When I finish up here, I'm probably going to have to spec back into Water, at the very least running around in Water between fights if I can manage that, in order to keep enough Ki up to run 10K Stars whenever it is off cooldown. Right now I've also been using Shadow Fade often, but will probably have to leave off using it much. GMoF definitely feels like it is probably going to be the strongest option for a zerging 12 monk/6 ranger/2 arti build, as you won't have enough Ki otherwise.
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 07-19-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Luis_Velderve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    • Bows not working with Grandmaster's +.5/1/1.5[W] when centered.
    HEY!The text is clear! Zen archery turn bows in Ki weapons. BTW I have a Ranger-Monk and 10kstars is priceless. If anyone wants to stay pure ranger is his choice ,stop complaining about ranger-monk, monk-ranger builds
    Quote Originally Posted by justagame View Post
    I assume you're joking.

    (But just in case you're not, posts like this don't help, don't pretend to speak for others.)

  18. #18
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Have you looked at ranks 2 and 3 in-game? No mention of +1 passive at rank 2, and like I said, at rank 3, I only have a passive Ki of +2 while in Water III.


    Note in the picture: I have tier 3 of Enlightenment, it shows only +1 passive Ki in the description, and with 3 of 310 Ki, and no Water stance, I have only +1 Ki regeneration.

    While I'm in GMoF, I've dropped Water III and am in Earth III full-time, leaning on Inner Focus to keep the Ki flowing. When I finish up here, I'm probably going to have to spec back into Water, at the very least running around in Water between fights if I can manage that, in order to keep enough Ki up to run 10K Stars whenever it is off cooldown. Right now I've also been using Shadow Fade often, but will probably have to leave off using it much. GMoF definitely feels like it is probably going to be the strongest option for a zerging 12 monk/6 ranger/2 arti build, as you won't have enough Ki otherwise.
    Thanks for the information, usually people are quicker to jump on opportunities to tell me I'm wrong :P unfortunately I have to wait until U15 to get EDs so haven't seen in game, only release note/ddowiki stuff. The DDOwiki seems to have changed since last I looked or maybe I'm just crazy.

    With a decent concentration score (say, 70) and +1 passive from Enlightenment you can still use 10k stars for 10 minutes before having to melee/meditate/go into water III. I think this will be fine for raids when you don't need to use much else and in quests can just melee a bit.
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    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luis_Velderve View Post
    HEY!The text is clear! Zen archery turn bows in Ki weapons. BTW I have a Ranger-Monk and 10kstars is priceless. If anyone wants to stay pure ranger is his choice ,stop complaining about ranger-monk, monk-ranger builds
    From what I've read, even with Zen Archery, this isn't working.

    As for your other comment, I have no idea what your point is trying to be.
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  20. #20
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Thanks for the information, usually people are quicker to jump on opportunities to tell me I'm wrong :P unfortunately I have to wait until U15 to get EDs so haven't seen in game, only release note/ddowiki stuff. The DDOwiki seems to have changed since last I looked or maybe I'm just crazy.

    With a decent concentration score (say, 70) and +1 passive from Enlightenment you can still use 10k stars for 10 minutes before having to melee/meditate/go into water III. I think this will be fine for raids when you don't need to use much else and in quests can just melee a bit.
    Well, I kept hoping you were right.

    70 Concentration? I have 23 ranks +2 epic skill points (so far) +8 Con (not figuring in ship buffs, Madstone or Yugo) +6 Enlightenment = 39. Still trying to find a way to get +15 Concentration onto my character (Shintao Cord would be good...hopefully I'll pick that up when I finally get around to ToD flagging), but that's a 54. A Shroud triple Good or Earth HP item (not my first choices for materials) would add 6 to that, for 60. GH doesn't count, because it comes in after the fact. Good Luck could fit, at least for zoning into a quest and resting via the Head of Good Fortune for another +2. +2 Insightful Con could stand to go somewhere, but I'm not seeing how you're hitting that 70.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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