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  1. #1
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    Default TWF damage vs THF damage

    I've long debated between the efficacy of TWF vs THF. In PnP there was no contest, THF did as much or more damage for less feats and did better at breaking DR. I have heard that in DDO TWF is king of DPS, but I don't know if people consider all factors (cleave, splash, # of opponents, etc), so I'd like to run a little math and put it out there for discussion.

    For our purposes lets take a HOrc Kensai III build, 42 str, all damage related enhancements and feats (greater weapon specialization, Fighter Specified Weapon Specialization II, Kensei Specified Weapon Mastery III, imp crit, etc), good but not uber gear. We'll give 1 build 2 Lit II Khopesh and the other a Lit II Falchion

    So, TWF we have base damage as follows (per weapon):
    16 from str
    4 from Weap Spec
    4 from enhancements
    5 from power attack
    6.5 base weapon (1d8*1.5)
    5 enchantment
    +40.5 base avg
    *proc*
    12 (lightning strike averaged in)
    7 holy
    3.5 shock
    +22.5 = 63 per weapon per swing not counting crits

    On 20 swings we have 5 crits which change base damage to (40.5 + 4 {kensei})*3 and adds 4d10 proc damage (shocking burst and blast) for 133.5 + 44.5 proc for 178 damage/weapon/swing. This gives us 14 regular hits, 5 crits and a miss for 1772 damage *1.8 (off-hand proc) = grand total 3189.6

    For Falchion build we have:
    24 from str (THF gets bonus)
    4 from Weap Spec
    8 from enhancements (THF gets bonus)
    10 from power attack (THF gets bonus)
    7.5 base weapon (2d4*1.5)
    5 enchantment
    +58.5 base avg
    *proc*
    12 (lightning strike averaged in)
    7 holy
    3.5 shock
    +22.5 = 81 per swing not counting crits
    +29 splash (all adjacent including primary target) = 100/swing to primary target

    On 20 swings we have 7 crits which change base damage to (58.5 + 8 {kensei})*2 and adds 2d10 proc damage (shocking burst and blast) for 133 + 33.5 proc + 66.5 splash for 233 damage/swing. This gives us 12 regular hits, 7 crits and a miss for 2831, and I almost forgot to add 15% proc damage on all splash for 64.125 = grand total 2895.125.

    So single target the THF is 295 damage behind the TWF, or roughly 91%.
    - This is a less dramatic difference than I think most people would assume

    That's single target, so what happens with multiple targets + cleave + great cleave + splash? I can't answer this because I do know that dual wielders can cleave and great cleave, but I don't know if they proc both weapons on cleave and great cleave (i.e. I great cleave 5 targets and attack 4 of them twice). I don't have time to run the theoretical #'s both ways, but I suspect if off hand procs then the contest skew slightly toward TWF, and if off hand doesn't proc then THF takes the lead.

    I realize many THF builds will use greataxe or greatsword, but I chose falchion because I thought it would compare best since we are testing ESoS or Antique Greataxe for this comparison.

    I also realize most TWF builds aren't fighter primary (although many splash), many are ranger or rogue, but fighter is as good at it as any, and again, it made a more apples to apples comparison.

    Thoughts? Anything I'm missing?

    **edited to remove a math error, where I added khopesh crit proc damage onto falchion in addition to the falchion crit proc damage**
    Last edited by Inouk; 07-15-2012 at 06:57 PM.

  2. #2

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    These comparisons are always difficult, because different classes / races benefit each style differently. At a quick glance, it looks like you are not taking the power attack racial enhancements. Nor are you including any sneak attack gear (up to +13 a strike, iirc). Plus, unless you plan on having aggro, helf gives more damage for twf (rogue dilly is +10.5 sneak) over horc's +4 str, +3 PA. Sneak damage raises the fort question, and so on.

  3. #3
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    As someone who has done plenty of dps math over the years, I can tell you that at this point in the game the outcome of this kind of math has been made mostly irrelevant for the base dps classes (fighter/barb), due to the lack of a proper TWF epic desitny. THF is king now, not because of calculated dps numbers (which may point either way), but because of the forced playstyle and specific benefits of given by fury of the wild and legendary dreadnought. (oh no, I sound like Shade ). Fury was specifically designed to give added benefit to THF, and dreadnought's main dps abilities (momentum swing/lay waste) don't proc offhands and require the constant spamming of cleaves, even on single targets making it heavily THF biased as well. Until a new ED is released for TWF (or an existing one fixed to benefit TWF equally) TWFs are going to fall behind in epic levesl, even when their calculated heroic level dps is higher.
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  4. #4
    Community Member EustaceTrevelyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    These comparisons are always difficult, because different classes / races benefit each style differently. At a quick glance, it looks like you are not taking the power attack racial enhancements. Nor are you including any sneak attack gear (up to +13 a strike, iirc). Plus, unless you plan on having aggro, helf gives more damage for twf (rogue dilly is +10.5 sneak) over horc's +4 str, +3 PA. Sneak damage raises the fort question, and so on.
    Yeah, this. Of course, the aggro thing, there's a lot more ways someone can tank now that they've buffed stalwart/defender, so you'd have to do say, half-orc THF (since they have str, PA and THF enh) vs say helf TWF vs some other uber TWF. But assuming you're geared for reducing aggro, for sneak attack the most important thing imho is fort, which can also be reduced, depending on gear and feats.

    I agree we need a new overhaul of DPS comparisons now that the dust has more or less settled on the new stuff.

  5. #5
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    pie charts/bar graphs have shown that when the dust settles between various build styles using 2 handed and 2 weapon fighting, their really ain't to much gain or loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodspeed View Post
    pie charts/bar graphs have shown that when the dust settles between various build styles using 2 handed and 2 weapon fighting, their really ain't to much gain or loss.
    Can you point me to one of these with a link? I'd be interested.

    I'm tentatively planning a 12 ranger 8 fighter TWF build next life for my fighter. Before I blow the mats on building 8 GS weapons I thought I would run some numbers. I may do it either way just to do something new, but I will be sorely disappointed if I min/max a TWF build on a TR and blow about a years worth of Shroud mats on weapons if I can't noticeably out damage my previous build 1 on 1.

  7. #7
    Community Member xveganrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    I'm tentatively planning a 12 ranger 8 fighter TWF build next life for my fighter. Before I blow the mats on building 8 GS weapons I thought I would run some numbers. I may do it either way just to do something new, but I will be sorely disappointed if I min/max a TWF build on a TR and blow about a years worth of Shroud mats on weapons if I can't noticeably out damage my previous build 1 on 1.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Legendary_Dreadnought
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Fury_of_the_Wild

    Legendary Dreadnought and Fury of the Wild are the two melee-oriented DPS destinies, and they both heavily favor THF. Legendary Dreadnought is build on Cleave/Momentum Swing, which don't proc off-hand attacks, and Fury is built on Adrenaline, which doesn't proc off-hand attacks. There will likely be more epic destinies, but currently THF is favored at end-game over TWF.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    So, TWF we have base damage as follows (per weapon):
    16 from str
    4 from Weap Spec
    4 from enhancements
    5 from power attack
    6.5 base weapon (1d8*1.5)
    5 enchantment
    +40.5 base avg
    *proc*
    12 (lightning strike averaged in)
    7 holy
    3.5 shock
    +22.5 = 63 per weapon per swing not counting crits

    On 20 swings we have 5 crits which change base damage to (40.5 + 4 {kensei})*3 and adds 4d10 proc damage (shocking burst and blast) for 133.5 + 44.5 proc for 178 damage/weapon/swing. This gives us 14 regular hits, 5 crits and a miss for 1772 damage *1.8 (off-hand proc) = grand total 3189.6
    Off-hand is only half strength bonus - you'll have to recalculate.

    I haven't done this for a while but, so may be some errors:

    Assume well geared HO 20 Fighter.

    Code:
    Strength
    20 Base
    05 Levels
    03 Tome
    07 Item
    01 Excpt/compence
    02 Excpt/insight
    03 Fighter Strenght III
    02 Orcish Strength II
    02 Rage spell
    02 Yugoloth potion
    03 Profane
    =50
    02 ship
    04 madstone
    08 kensei 
    =64
    So:
    27 Main-Hand
    13 Off-Hand
    
    Epic Level Buffs:
    
    01 +8 Item or +3 Insight 
    01 Level 24
    =66
    +6 Drow Khopesh 3[1d8] 18-20/x3
    Code:
    Base:
    13.5 Drow Khopesh Base Damage
    06.0 Weapon Enchantment
    27.0 Main-Hand Strength
    05.0 Power Attack
    03.0 Orcish Power Attack III
    04.0 Khopesh Weapon Specialist/Feat
    02.0 Khopesh Weapon Mastery II TWF/AP
    02.0 Khopesh Weapon Specialization II/Kensi
    09.0 Bard Song
    04.0 Claw Set
    02.0 Kyosho
    =77.5 Main Hand
    -14
    =63.5 Off Hand
    
    Procs:
    01.0 Force Ritual
    07.0 Ravager Ring (2d6 dot)
    
    
    Non-Crit (2-13) (with IC)
    85.5 Main-Hand
    71.5 Off-Hand
    
    Crit (14-19) 
    77.5 Base Main-Hand
    10.0 Seeker
    04.0 Kensei II
    =91.5
    x3
    =274.5 
    
    77.5 Base Main-Hand
    10.0 Seeker
    04.0 Kensei II
    =91.5
    x3
    =274.5
    +8 Procs
    =282.5 Main-Hand
    =240.5 Off-Hand
    
    Vorpal (20)
    =282.5 Main-Hand
    =240.5 Off-Hand
    
    
     TWF swings per minute (BAB 20) is 86.66 * (100% + 1.1965 * sum of each boost%)
     Haste = 15% and Haste Boost IV = 25% gives Total = 40%
    
     86.66 * 1.4786 = 128.14 swings/min main-hand
     128.12 * 80%   = 102.50 swings/min off-hand
    
    
    70% Non-Crit
    35% Crit
    10% Main-Hand Double Strike
    
    M-Hand: ( 77.5 * 70% + 282.5 * 35% ) * 128.14 * 110% = 153.125 * 128.14 * 110%
    =21,583.58
    O-Hand: ( 63.5 * 70% + 240.5 * 35% ) * 102.50 = 128.625 * 102.50
    =13,184.0625
    Total: 
    =34767.64 => 579.46 dps
    +10 eSOS 1[5d6] 18-20/x3
    Code:
    17.5 eSOS Base Damage
    10.0 Weapon Enchantment
    40.5 Main-Hand Strength
    10.0 Power Attack
    06.0 Orcish Power Attack III
    04.0 Khopesh Weapon Specialist/Feat
    02.0 Khopesh Weapon Mastery II THF/AP
    04.0 Khopesh Weapon Specialization II/Kensi
    09.0 Bard Song
    04.0 Claw Set
    02.0 Kyosho
    04.0 Half-Orc Melee Damage II
    =113
    
    Procs:
    01.0 Force Ritual
    07.0 Ravager Ring (2d6 dot)
    
    Non-Crit (2-13) (with IC)
    113.0 Base
    008.0 Procs
    =121
    
    Glancing:
    121.0
    x50%
    =60.5
    01.0
    x19%
    07.0 Ravager
    =67.70
    x75%
    =50.775
    or
    x25%
    =16.925
    
    
    Crit (14-20) (with IC)
    113.0 Base
    010.0 Seeker
    008.0 Kensei II
    =131
    x3
    =393
    008.0 Procs
    =401
    
    
    
    * Fast THF (greataxe, quarterstaff) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 86.50 * (100% + 1.0327 * sum of each boost%)
    * Slow THF (greatsword) swings per minute (BAB 20) is 86.63 * (100% + 0.9615 * sum of each boost%)
    * Fast THF twitch swings per minute (BAB 20) is 99.49 * (100% + 1.2763 * sum of each boost%)
    * Slow THF twitch swings per minute (BAB 20) is 102.22 * (100% + 1.1302 * sum of each boost%)
    
     Haste = 15% and Haste Boost IV = 25% gives Total = 40%
    
     102.22 * (100% + 1.1302 * 40%) = 148.4316 swings/min (twich)
      86.63 * (100% + 0.9615 * 40%) = 119.9479 swings/min (auto-attack)
    
    
    70% Non-Crit
    35% Crit
    10% Main-Hand Double Strike
    75% Attacks per swing if GTHF auto-attack
    
    BASE: ( 121 * 70%  + 401 * 35% ) * 110 % =  247.555 
    
    AA: 247.555 + 50.775 = 298.33 * 119.9470 = 35783.79 / 60 = 596.40 dps (auto-attack)
    TW: 247.555 + 16.925 = 264.48 * 148.4316 = 39257.19 / 60 = 654.27 dps
    Note: I assume that the Glancing Blow rate when twitching is 25%. First swing, but I may be wrong. Also not sure what the new AC system is going to do to twitching.

    Notes:
    Code:
    +10 Seeker
    
    +3 Orcish Power Attack III TWF
    +6 Orcish Power Attack III THF
    +2 Orcish Melee Damage II THF
    
    
    Glancing:
    9% GTHF
    6% THF Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III
    2% Kensai Specified Weapon Mastery I 
    2% Kensai Specified Weapon Mastery II
    =19%
    
    Double Strike
    10% Competence Capstone
    
    
    Feat/Greater Weapon Specialization: +4 Damage
    AP/Specified Weapon Specialization II: +2 dmg
    
    
    Kensei II: +2 action boost, +8 STR/60sec/action
    Kensei Weapon Mastery II THF: +2 tohit, +4dmg/crit-confirm, +8 crit dmg, 1AP
    Kensei Weapon Mastery II TWF: +2 tohit/dmg, +4 seeker, 1AP
    Kensei Weapon Mastery III: +1 Critical Threat Range
    
    Other Options
    02.0 Encrusted
    Reference:
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144 - Vanshilar's Attack Speed Index and Formulae
    Varz
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    Fury was specifically designed to give added benefit to THF, and dreadnought's main dps abilities (momentum swing/lay waste) don't proc offhands and require the constant spamming of cleaves, even on single targets making it heavily THF biased as well. Until a new ED is released for TWF (or an existing one fixed to benefit TWF equally) TWFs are going to fall behind in epic levesl, even when their calculated heroic level dps is higher.
    I agree mostly, but I think that TWF builds are going to focus more on tactics and proc effects. Purple damage numbers in the new content are going to benefit TWF.

    A Drow weapon/alchemical build with stunning blow and Earth/Air/Air is going to get an additional 6% double strike. The Acid/Shock purple procs and CC (+10 stunning, earthgrab) may tip the balance towards TWF.

    It is unfortunate that DDO doesn't have any content like SWTOR, where the raids a very finely tuned. In DDO the difference between 580 and 650 dps not going to wipe a raid. Where as in SWTOR Columi vs Denova requires a very finely tuned team. Enrage timers might be an interesting concept to explore for EE content.
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  10. #10

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    It's not just adrenaline; Fury of the Wild also can increase glancing blow chance and glancing blow procs, as in you get a chance for your glancing blows to apply your extra damage like holy, shock, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Note: I assume that the Glancing Blow rate when twitching is 25%. First swing, but I may be wrong. Also not sure what the new AC system is going to do to twitching.
    My understanding is that you get no glancing blows at all when twitching.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My understanding is that you get no glancing blows at all when twitching.
    You definitely lose the glancing blow on the 3rd (GTHF) and 4th animations. I'm not sure about the 1st animation.

    If not then:
    Code:
    TWF: 579.46 dps
    AA: 247.555 + 50.775 = 298.33 * 119.9470 = 35783.79 / 60 = 596.40 dps (auto-attack)
    TW: 247.555  * 148.4316 = 36744.98 / 60 = 612.42 dps
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  12. #12
    Community Member skullzz's Avatar
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    To the guy that had the question about cleave.
    Yes a twf can cleave. Both weapons hit everyone in front of you.
    I know because I have a 18/2 frenzy/ fighter.
    Also the Dps between twf and thf all depends how you are speced.
    Both end to be about the same Dps.
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    I have a SD3 S&B spec'd fighter that mainly uses 2 khopeshes now.
    I very rarely use a shield anymore. But keep one or two handy for situations that require them.
    Same for THF weapons. Occasionally I'll swap over to a great sword or axe. If I'm neck deep in trash mobs.

    But for the most part, even though that particular toon isn't spec'd for TWF, he more than holds his own.
    And now with the epic levels and destinies...whoa.

    He's becoming a veritable whirling dervish of death.

  14. #14
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    fury's adrenaline may not proc offhand attacks, but it will (once the destiny is leveled) get more of them (about 1.8 times as many, assuming all THF feats are taken). that's not insignificant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer View Post
    As someone who has done plenty of dps math over the years, I can tell you that at this point in the game the outcome of this kind of math has been made mostly irrelevant for the base dps classes (fighter/barb), due to the lack of a proper TWF epic desitny. THF is king now, not because of calculated dps numbers (which may point either way), but because of the forced playstyle and specific benefits of given by fury of the wild and legendary dreadnought. (oh no, I sound like Shade ). Fury was specifically designed to give added benefit to THF, and dreadnought's main dps abilities (momentum swing/lay waste) don't proc offhands and require the constant spamming of cleaves, even on single targets making it heavily THF biased as well. Until a new ED is released for TWF (or an existing one fixed to benefit TWF equally) TWFs are going to fall behind in epic levesl, even when their calculated heroic level dps is higher.
    ^ This...

    In practice everything comprised is pretty much it.
    A Baker's dozen in the Prophets of the New Republic and Fallen Heroes.
    Abaigeal(TrBd25), Ailiae(TrDrd2), Ambyre(Rgr25), Amilia(Pl20), Einin(TrRgr25), Emili(TrFgt25), Heathier(TrClc22), Kynah(TrMnk25), Meallach(Brb25), Misbehaven(TrArt22), Myara(Rog22), Rosewood(TrBd25) and Sgail(TrWiz20) little somethings with flavour 'n favour

  16. #16
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    Is there one attack roll for a cleave, or one attack roll for each target?

    If the later, then both Fury Eternal and Unbridled Fury are going to proc move often with cleave/greater cleave spam. Especially if Momentum Swing is twisted in as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    I agree mostly, but I think that TWF builds are going to focus more on tactics and proc effects. Purple damage numbers in the new content are going to benefit TWF.

    A Drow weapon/alchemical build with stunning blow and Earth/Air/Air is going to get an additional 6% double strike. The Acid/Shock purple procs and CC (+10 stunning, earthgrab) may tip the balance towards TWF.

    It is unfortunate that DDO doesn't have any content like SWTOR, where the raids a very finely tuned. In DDO the difference between 580 and 650 dps not going to wipe a raid. Where as in SWTOR Columi vs Denova requires a very finely tuned team. Enrage timers might be an interesting concept to explore for EE content.
    Might be for the better, when you "finely tune" you make the game more and more elitist until all the semi-casual players abandon the game and the game quickly fades into obscurity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skullzz View Post
    To the guy that had the question about cleave.
    Yes a twf can cleave. Both weapons hit everyone in front of you.
    I know because I have a 18/2 frenzy/ fighter.
    Also the Dps between twf and thf all depends how you are speced.
    Both end to be about the same Dps.
    Thanks, that helps. That really helps keep TWF close in numbers since I will certainly have cleave and great cleave, and will try to fit in whirlwind if I can since I am forced into most of the pre-reqs anyway.

    I'm going forward with the build, looking forward to some self healing, evasion, having bow being a viable alternative, etc. without really sacrificing DPS. If it was all about the DPS I'd go barb and call it good. I'm too casual a player to have ESOS and alot of ToD gear (especially since this isn't my primary), but I do pretty well.

    Thanks for the input all!

  19. #19
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    Can you point me to one of these with a link? I'd be interested.

    I'm tentatively planning a 12 ranger 8 fighter TWF build next life for my fighter. Before I blow the mats on building 8 GS weapons I thought I would run some numbers. I may do it either way just to do something new, but I will be sorely disappointed if I min/max a TWF build on a TR and blow about a years worth of Shroud mats on weapons if I can't noticeably out damage my previous build 1 on 1.
    I could search but I just don't want to lol. They're somewhere in the archives of this forum, im thinking prolly in the melee section as that's where the rage threads usually occurred when some barb would say hes better then a fighter and vice versa.

    They used some program, and everyone made just freaking tons and tons of charts of every shape and size to show diferances with pures be they barb or fighter or favored or rogue or splash mixes like the helves, with weapon stances and what type used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Off-hand is only half strength bonus - you'll have to recalculate.

    I haven't done this for a while but, so may be some errors:
    I did make some errors in my calculations. Here are some better comparisons: http://goo.gl/WB5KT and http://goo.gl/nyBEs.
    Varz
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