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  1. #1
    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Default VIP Player interested in PD

    I am a VIP player, considering making a PD character for 4-10 hours a week of playing.
    1. Timezone - GMT+6
    2. Language - English
    3. Preferred Class - Reasonably Open


    I do not care what server I am on, but I do care about the guild rules. Specifically...
    1. I want a guild where I can adventure with other people, otherwise what is the point?
    2. I do not want to be considered 'dead' when I lose connection. If I can be trusted to play PD (and the myriad systems of rules attached) then I can be trusted not to BS if I go LD.


    If you have an active PD guild that meets these requirements, let me know by PM or post here.

    EDIT: To clarify on lost connection / death issues - internet connectivity in the part of the world I am in is horrible. It drops from time to time, and sometimes will drop and be down for hours. It happens a couple times a month for a few hours each time, and randomly a couple times a week for as little as a few seconds. Nothing I can do about that, so I just live with it (and occasionally die with it as well).

    Thanks
    Last edited by Joseph; 07-12-2012 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Clarification on connectivity...
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

  2. #2
    Community Member Magnyr_Delorn's Avatar
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    Not to toot our own horn in direct contrast with what I posted the other day in another thread, but if you're looking for a guild that doesn't punish you for disconnecting, the only guild I know of that does that is Extreme Explorers.

    www.extremeexplorers.guildportal.com

    A list of all the PD guilds and links to their websites

  3. #3
    Community Member Gandalfs_Ghost's Avatar
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    Contradictory horn tooting!
    /points


    Just to be clear, no pd guild declares you automatically dead for discoing. BUT if you get killed while discoing and you cannot be raised (too low level, soloing, everyone else is dead too, etc) then yeah, most PD guilds will require a reroll.

    Its not to be mean, not because we like seeing people reroll for no good reason, its simply because any death can be blamed on lag. So this was deemed the simplest solution by pretty much everyone running PD guilds, with the obvious exception above.

    good luck in your quest!

  4. #4
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnyr_Delorn View Post
    Not to toot our own horn in direct contrast with what I posted the other day in another thread, but if you're looking for a guild that doesn't punish you for disconnecting, the only guild I know of that does that is Extreme Explorers.

    www.extremeexplorers.guildportal.com

    A list of all the PD guilds and links to their websites
    Your so elitist and you are splitting the PD community! Wait, I need more exclamation points!!!!

    Hah! Heaven forbid you direct a prospective player toward a guild suited to him...

    With your play times you might find groups in MV, but you won't get forgiveness for lag deaths. Lag deaths are very uncommon anyway...
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  5. #5
    Community Member Magnyr_Delorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Lag deaths are very uncommon anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post

    EDIT: To clarify on lost connection / death issues - internet connectivity in the part of the world I am in is horrible. It drops from time to time, and sometimes will drop and be down for hours. It happens a couple times a month for a few hours each time, and randomly a couple times a week for as little as a few seconds. Nothing I can do about that, so I just live with it (and occasionally die with it as well).

    Thanks
    Considering it used to happen to me ALL the time a few years back, and then I upgraded my router and ISP and still have the issue every once in a while.... yeah, not everyone can afford top of the line quality. My character's life shouldn't be in the hands of how much money I have in real life.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    I do not want to be considered 'dead' when I lose connection. If I can be trusted to play PD (and the myriad systems of rules attached) then I can be trusted not to BS if I go LD.
    This.

  6. #6
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnyr_Delorn View Post
    Considering it used to happen to me ALL the time a few years back, and then I upgraded my router and ISP and still have the issue every once in a while.... yeah, not everyone can afford top of the line quality. My character's life shouldn't be in the hands of how much money I have in real life.

    Also:



    This.
    I've seen hundreds, if not thougsands of DCs. I've seen less than a handful result in character death. I completely agree that it sucks when it happens, but to me making it a subjective call has never seemed more fair than applying the same rule across the board.

    BTW, when MV was young, I lost the first "high" level rogue in our guild when Windows update activated about a milisecond after I dived under water. Game locked up and I couldn't get back in time. It sucked but it wasn't lag and in fact was completely under my control. I could (and since did) simply turn off Windows update.

    BTW II, my modem resets almost every night within the same one hour window. It's not predictable enough to know when. Sometimes I completely DC and sometimes I can get back in game without restarting. Yet, with a DC almost every session, (and I play almost every night for the last six years), I've only lost two or three characters to it.

    What if the healer lags out and another character dies from lack of healing? Do you forgive that? What if you are in the middle of a really tough fight with unsure outcome and you lag a little but don't DC and you lose the fight? Do you forgive that? What if your kid decides to download the latest Anoying Orange video to his iPad on the same connection you are using while negotiating a trap and you lag just enough for the trap to hit you twice instead of the planned once? Do you forgive that? What if your computer always lags a bit when there are a lot of enemies on screen? Do you forgive any death where there were a lot of enemies on screen? What if the party wipes except for the raiser but there are still lots of enemies around, the raiser DCs and can't get back in game? Do you rule that everyone gets a free pass? What if you are in a tough fight you can't hope to win and trying to escape via Greater Teleport, yet your arcane is being hit and fails concentration, then on the second attempt lags just enough that the spell doesn't go off and the party wipes? Do you call that a lag death?

    I understand your point that losing a character to lag sucks, but if you are taking on serious challenges you are going to lose characters one way or the other and trying to decide which ones are related to or caused by lag just never seemed fair at all to me. Call it a death, reroll and get on with it.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Magnyr_Delorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I understand your point that losing a character to lag sucks, but if you are taking on serious challenges you are going to lose characters one way or the other and trying to decide which ones are related to or caused by lag just never seemed fair at all to me. Call it a death, reroll and get on with it.
    You can play your way, we'll play our way, and we can both continue about our merry way.

  8. #8
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    Your so elitist and you are splitting the PD community! Wait, I need more exclamation points!!!!

    Hah! Heaven forbid you direct a prospective player toward a guild suited to him...

    With your play times you might find groups in MV, but you won't get forgiveness for lag deaths. Lag deaths are very uncommon anyway...
    Roflmao!!!

    Obviously you didn't read the "Prospective Players PD request", most important to him is that "Lag Deaths dont count", because of the internet connections where the "Prospective Player" is located. In this case your inflexible rule of all lag deaths count makes it a very simple choice of not recommending your guild!

    Further to the point Magnyr, did exactly the right thing by pointing the "Prospective Player" towards a list of PD guilds that include their websites and rulesets, again there is no need to see yourself as the President of Permadeath and deciding who should play where, people will make their on educated choices!
    Guild: PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda Level 63, Website: http://valhallans.proboards.com/
    Casualnarc Epic TR 2nd Life Level 9, Repentnarc 16, Gatlingnarc 15, Snipernarc 14, Banknarc 13, Airnarc 12, Braverynarc 11, Lednarc 11, Tempestnarc 11, Holynarc 9, Repeatnarc 6, Ebuttonnarc 6 <-ALL WITH ZERO DEATHS

  9. #9
    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Thanks all for the responses.

    Parvo summed up exactly what I do not want, in a word - if I go link dead while swimming, and log back in dead and have to roll a new character - that would not be acceptable to me.

    All I can really say is, if I wanted to cheat, why on earth would I play PD when I could play any other way or style I chose (or just duo with the wife and a couple hirelings at level on Normal)?

    Basically an entire community has founded their rules on the predication that anyone who dies and uses the justification of 'lag death' is potentially a liar and a cheater, and therefore any and all deaths are final because there is a slim chance someone might be cheating. On the other hand, these same players are trusted not to 'cheat' in terms of auction houses and similar things.

    Anyone here know about Catch 22? It is written all over this policy Just saying...

    So thanks to those who posted here, and thanks to those who sent me PMs. I will get back to you

    Oh yes - I do agree that lag death will almost never happen. Usually you lag out and log back in no problem. That is 'usually' what happens to me. There have been other occasions (particularly in other open world games) where I have lost connection, and logged back in dead. I don't want to gamble my time and investment into a PD character only to have it lost to an issue beyond my control.
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

  10. #10
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    Thanks all for the responses.

    Parvo summed up exactly what I do not want, in a word - if I go link dead while swimming, and log back in dead and have to roll a new character - that would not be acceptable to me.

    All I can really say is, if I wanted to cheat, why on earth would I play PD when I could play any other way or style I chose (or just duo with the wife and a couple hirelings at level on Normal)?

    Basically an entire community has founded their rules on the predication that anyone who dies and uses the justification of 'lag death' is potentially a liar and a cheater, and therefore any and all deaths are final because there is a slim chance someone might be cheating. On the other hand, these same players are trusted not to 'cheat' in terms of auction houses and similar things.

    Anyone here know about Catch 22? It is written all over this policy Just saying...

    So thanks to those who posted here, and thanks to those who sent me PMs. I will get back to you

    Oh yes - I do agree that lag death will almost never happen. Usually you lag out and log back in no problem. That is 'usually' what happens to me. There have been other occasions (particularly in other open world games) where I have lost connection, and logged back in dead. I don't want to gamble my time and investment into a PD character only to have it lost to an issue beyond my control.
    It has nothing to do with cheating. It has everything to do with fairness. Read some of my examples and answer to yourself what is fair and what is not. BTW, a PD character is not work, it is not investment, it is not a possession. PD is an experience. My goal is that you fondly remember your adventures for years to come. Whether your character reaches your personal pinacle or not, live or die, I hope you feel it is time well spent. (OK...as well spent as can be for a game...)
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  11. #11
    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    It has nothing to do with cheating. It has everything to do with fairness. Read some of my examples and answer to yourself what is fair and what is not. BTW, a PD character is not work, it is not investment, it is not a possession. PD is an experience. My goal is that you fondly remember your adventures for years to come. Whether your character reaches your personal pinacle or not, live or die, I hope you feel it is time well spent. (OK...as well spent as can be for a game...)
    But in the interests of being 'fair' and not 'cheating' wouldn't players police themselves?

    There are, as I will illustrate in my next post, occasions that warrant consideration - hence my choice to choose a guild that allows me that freedom.

    You mention a child downloading something and causing lag in DDO. What if that same child is severely hurt? Should I take time to type out a message so you all know I had an emergency, or do I just run and take care of the emergency - letting my character die? Obviously DDO is just a game, and family comes first (for me at least) - but the prevalent stance on PD seems to be DDO first, everything else second (also summed up as, you die, you are dead, irrespective of circumstance).

    I mean, suppose my over excitable but oh so smoking hot wife yells in pain from the other room? Do I rush to her aid, or do I take time to tell everyone to wait, because my wife might have just dropped a knife in her foot? Every time I am going to run to my wife. Me doing that just caused 5 other people to prematurely 'end' their PD experience. And come to find out my wife just yelled because she saw a bug or something equally trivial. Have fun re-rolling and running back through Korthos/Harbor...

    For me that eliminates the 'tabletop' feel of what PD is supposed to allow. How does this sound for an advertisement?

    Experience dungeons as never before... take risks no other players in DDO are brave enough to take... engage in the most epic and challenging battles, with your life as the prize for victory...**

    **note - Play experience subject to random death due to persistent server lag bug, elite traps not scaled properly, and of course the ever present internet disconnects - but - you die, you die. That is how we roll in Stormreach.


    I'm not knocking the PD community - rather, I am saying that simply applying the 'all deaths are final' rule is taking the easy way out, and also taking some of the reward out of the adventure for some players. To be honest, had I known there was PD guild that called the shots on certain 'death' instances, I would have joined them ages ago for the fun factor. As it was, the main stumbling block for me has been the lack of consideration for real life in the community.

    Now that I know there are somewhat like minded folks out there as me, that changes things a bit
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

  12. #12
    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Default To answer your original thread (Parvo)...

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I've seen hundreds, if not thougsands of DCs. I've seen less than a handful result in character death. I completely agree that it sucks when it happens, but to me making it a subjective call has never seemed more fair than applying the same rule across the board.
    If there were a game server that was hard core, and all deaths counted no matter what, I would accept that - and consider whether or not I wanted to play on that server. The way PD is currently implemented, I would expect it to be more forgiving of real world circumstance.

    I agree that very few disconnects result in death (see below), but I disagree that it is a fair call to make it across the board that any death, irrespective of circumstance, is a permanent death as per the rules (subject to res, etc., etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    BTW, when MV was young, I lost the first "high" level rogue in our guild when Windows update activated about a milisecond after I dived under water. Game locked up and I couldn't get back in time. It sucked but it wasn't lag and in fact was completely under my control. I could (and since did) simply turn off Windows update.
    This is a perfect example of the type of lag death I am referring to. More often than not it would be this sort of thing I would die from. In your case you wrote it off as your fault. Were I in your shoes, I would not have considered a random windows update my 'fault'. Simply put, I was immersed in the game, windows popped up and killed me while I was in water. Simple for me - no death. In your case - death. Just a difference of perspective / viewpoint. You're modifying your real world environment to accommodate the game. Sadly I do not often have that luxury, and am forced to modify the game to suit the reality of my environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    BTW II, my modem resets almost every night within the same one hour window. It's not predictable enough to know when. Sometimes I completely DC and sometimes I can get back in game without restarting. Yet, with a DC almost every session, (and I play almost every night for the last six years), I've only lost two or three characters to it.
    First, you should update your firmware or get a new modem.

    Second - I agree with you. Lag deaths are the exception, not the rule, but losing those two or three characters to a factor that is essentially beyond my control is not an acceptable loss to me. My time is money - plain and simple. My free time is more valuable to me than any time I spend working, because it is the only time I get to choose what I do with - so it is in essence worth more than money I might otherwise make.

    If I am choosing to play a hard core (PD) set of rules, then I have chosen to, as an example, invest my money in a high risk stock with a great return as compared to the mundane casual mode with a hireling stocks.

    In this scenario, I know all of the factors going in, and I can make my own decisions based on my skill level and that of my companions. That results in enjoyment for me.

    In your scenario, some local idiot at the 1990 style ISP here bumps the main feed and disconnects the whole country for a few minutes to an hour, and I potentially have to start from zero on my character because of it.

    In my scenario, the same idiot bumps the main feed, I get disconnected, drown in the water while the party laughs and says, "Ah, that Joe disconnected again. Poor bastard." Then I log back in (assuming the idiot at the ISP figured out what he did and has fixed it), and that death is not counted.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if the healer lags out and another character dies from lack of healing? Do you forgive that?
    Depending on the circumstances. How about comparing these two scenarios...
    1. You enter a dungeon with me healing your party. I disconnect at the boss fight and the party wipes. I log back in and apologize.
    2. You enter a dungeon with me healing your party. I intentionally stop healing your party at the boss fight and you all wipe. I laugh and say I was role playing an evil character, and loot your stuff.


    Both scenarios are a form of grief. One by the ISP, one by a player. What is the difference? In my world a work around is put in place by the humans playing the game that accounts for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if you are in the middle of a really tough fight with unsure outcome and you lag a little but don't DC and you lose the fight? Do you forgive that?
    This is perhaps where we agree. Any lag related issue that is not a disconnect and results in death is considered a death.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if your kid decides to download the latest Anoying Orange video to his iPad on the same connection you are using while negotiating a trap and you lag just enough for the trap to hit you twice instead of the planned once? Do you forgive that?
    Spare the rod, spoil the child, I always say. Therefore I would also hit the kid twice (just as the trap hit me), and then apply the same lag rule I mentioned above.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if your computer always lags a bit when there are a lot of enemies on screen? Do you forgive any death where there were a lot of enemies on screen?
    Any lag related issue that is not a disconnect and results in death is considered a death.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if the party wipes except for the raiser but there are still lots of enemies around, the raiser DCs and can't get back in game? Do you rule that everyone gets a free pass?
    This is another example involving a disconnect.

    Two possible outcomes:
    1. If the party died because of lack of healing due to that person disconnecting, then restart at a later date, restart at a checkpoint, whichever.
    2. If the party died even with the healing, then sorry, but in most cases the whole party is dead. Examples are... the end of Water Works - quite possible that the res person could manage to get some people back up. At the end of Delera's Tomb - with 5 extra wraiths - quite unlikely the res person could get people back up - so likely all deaths.


    This is what makes some dungeons so scary. If you die in Delera's, at the end, you are most likely screwed. If you survive, wow, badge of honor. More on this at the end...

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    What if you are in a tough fight you can't hope to win and trying to escape via Greater Teleport, yet your arcane is being hit and fails concentration, then on the second attempt lags just enough that the spell doesn't go off and the party wipes? Do you call that a lag death?
    Any lag related issue that is not a disconnect and results in death is considered a death.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    I understand your point that losing a character to lag sucks, but if you are taking on serious challenges you are going to lose characters one way or the other and trying to decide which ones are related to or caused by lag just never seemed fair at all to me. Call it a death, reroll and get on with it.
    My view is quite different than yours, but then I have spent the last 6+ years in countries where the local average wage is from $50 a month in a poor country to $400 a month in a good country. Utilities are nothing if not equal to the area where you live. You router goes off once a day. My internet goes off once a day (at least), and my power goes off regularly, as well as water regularly not working - so I don't have the luxury of shaping my world around a game experience. In that regard I envy you.

    From where I stand, any disconnect = an act of god, beyond your control, and should be measured on a case by case basis. If I disconnect and the party completes the dungeon with me disconnected, we assume I got teleported god knows where, and I don't get xp or loot for that run (if I log back in early enough to get xp, but after the fight is done, the I will leave the next similar run completion before xp is granted).

    There are obvious exceptions, like the end of Delera's, where with 5 people down it is just a wipe, and end of story, because wherever you got 'teleported/disconnected' to does not matter, because everyone who knew about it is dead, meaning you are effectively out of the game. This also serves to make Delera's as scary as it rightfully should be.

    With that in mind, lag = you got a bee in your armor, you slipped on a dead slime, you have a bad itch from the ladies of the night - whatever - you got distracted (as happens in real life), and the DM basically said, give me a wisdom/dexterity/strength check - and you failed - possibly resulting in death, possibly not. In this case you live with the consequences.

    Of course, in extenuating circumstances, like server wide lag, people call it as they see it.

    That was, I always thought, the whole reason of playing PD. Basically, we are all in it together, as a team, win or lose - but win or lose on our terms - not on the oops no internet / server lag terms. If the lag is individual (as happens), and you elect to keep playing, then you get what you signed up for. If there is no lag, but you disconnect - you had no way of knowing or expecting that.

    Anyway, at the end of the day we all enjoy the game in our own ways. We can agree to disagree, and each find the parts of the game that appeal to us, enjoying the game for what it is.
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

  13. #13
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Just so you know Joseph, our guild has a private review section on our forums for any disconnect/lag deaths that a player may want to contest. This review is done by several long standing members of the guild and is done on a case by case basis, whilst the review is taking place your toon must be shelved for the review. In total we have had only 3 reviews(one of which was determined as a bug death), the other two were allowed as non-deaths. There have been a few other deaths that guildies didnt contest, they were all on elite setting and involved big hitting mobs, we general have a rule of 3 options;

    1) Do you think it would be impossible to be killed in the situation without lag(in this case which we have had 2 reviews, you would be determined as alive and no death)
    2) Do you think the mobs could cast instant kill spells that would make you subject to death regardless of lag, some items would prevent instant death, so case by case is used to determine this judgement call by the review board)
    3) And lastly would you be taking constant hard hitting damage if you were standing still in the situation (these cases have never been reviewed because our guildies would just accept them as deaths)

    *** in regards to option 3 most of our guildies dont let guildies run high challenge quests alone, also because most guildies are looking for company for these type of quests(For example: Partycrashers on Elite we like to have 4 players in order to go after the optional demon)
    Guild: PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda Level 63, Website: http://valhallans.proboards.com/
    Casualnarc Epic TR 2nd Life Level 9, Repentnarc 16, Gatlingnarc 15, Snipernarc 14, Banknarc 13, Airnarc 12, Braverynarc 11, Lednarc 11, Tempestnarc 11, Holynarc 9, Repeatnarc 6, Ebuttonnarc 6 <-ALL WITH ZERO DEATHS

  14. #14
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
    But in the interests of being 'fair' and not 'cheating' wouldn't players police themselves?

    There are, as I will illustrate in my next post, occasions that warrant consideration - hence my choice to choose a guild that allows me that freedom.

    You mention a child downloading something and causing lag in DDO. What if that same child is severely hurt? Should I take time to type out a message so you all know I had an emergency, or do I just run and take care of the emergency - letting my character die? Obviously DDO is just a game, and family comes first (for me at least) - but the prevalent stance on PD seems to be DDO first, everything else second (also summed up as, you die, you are dead, irrespective of circumstance).

    I mean, suppose my over excitable but oh so smoking hot wife yells in pain from the other room? Do I rush to her aid, or do I take time to tell everyone to wait, because my wife might have just dropped a knife in her foot? Every time I am going to run to my wife. Me doing that just caused 5 other people to prematurely 'end' their PD experience. And come to find out my wife just yelled because she saw a bug or something equally trivial. Have fun re-rolling and running back through Korthos/Harbor...

    For me that eliminates the 'tabletop' feel of what PD is supposed to allow. How does this sound for an advertisement?

    Experience dungeons as never before... take risks no other players in DDO are brave enough to take... engage in the most epic and challenging battles, with your life as the prize for victory...**

    **note - Play experience subject to random death due to persistent server lag bug, elite traps not scaled properly, and of course the ever present internet disconnects - but - you die, you die. That is how we roll in Stormreach.

    I'm not knocking the PD community - rather, I am saying that simply applying the 'all deaths are final' rule is taking the easy way out, and also taking some of the reward out of the adventure for some players. To be honest, had I known there was PD guild that called the shots on certain 'death' instances, I would have joined them ages ago for the fun factor. As it was, the main stumbling block for me has been the lack of consideration for real life in the community.

    Now that I know there are somewhat like minded folks out there as me, that changes things a bit
    If your child is injured in a way that seconds matter, who cares about your DDO character? You should provide a safe environment for your child and should not be playing if they are in danger. Ruling your stupid DDO character dead is a blessing.

    If your wife is prone to calling you away from the computer and you don't have time to let the party know you are AFK, you need to get some scene control. Play only when the house is settled etc...
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  15. #15
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    In any case, I'm glad you found a place to play PD.
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  16. #16
    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Default Again...

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    If your child is injured in a way that seconds matter, who cares about your DDO character? You should provide a safe environment for your child and should not be playing if they are in danger. Ruling your stupid DDO character dead is a blessing.
    You have an interesting way with assumptions... Let's just leave it at the fact of I would take care of my family, and you would rule that my character had died as a result of my absence, therefore you and I won't be playing together. You'll keep playing your way (and supporting a game I like), and I will keep playing my way (and supporting a game you like). End of story, and best of luck to me while I attempt to navigate my stupid DDO character through the hazards of Stormreach while encouraging my children to play in traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    If your wife is prone to calling you away from the computer and you don't have time to let the party know you are AFK, you need to get some scene control. Play only when the house is settled etc...
    My wife will be here long after DDO, so whatever her reasons for calling me away from DDO, they are always more important. Since she also plays, she respects my play area. Of course, I could always ask her to go play in traffic with our children, which would solve every problem except for who would get me a drink...
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

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    Founder Joseph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    In any case, I'm glad you found a place to play PD.
    I'm trial running with a few groups in the coming weeks to see how it goes. Several like minded groups have made themselves known, so hopefully everything will work out fine and I'll find a home with one of them.

    Thanks for the well wishes.
    The only difference between a weed and a flower is survival skill - Joseph

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