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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    ...For most players, Heal and Mass Heal are functioning approximately the same as they did before the expansion pack, and characters who use level appropriate gear have also seen small increases in the power of those spells. That small increase would have been a large one if we had done nothing, and we made the decision to maintain the current balance of the Heal and Mass Heal spells.

    If we observe that Heal and Mass Heal are not performing sufficiently in Menace of the Underdark, we’ll address that....
    Sure, making that decision is fine as an initial point, but the elephant in the room that no one is mentioning is that this decision throws the baby out with the bathwater since "maintain the current balance of the Heal and Mass Heal spells" unfortunately means SLAs and divine caster offensive spells are under the same 50% nerf....which means players on divine casters forfeit *half* their contribution to the quest completion, meaning that players' contribution is devalued by *half*.

    I want my 100% contribution back. We lost 50% in the U14 nerf, and I want that back.

    "Healing the group" is like like paying the rent, its the ante up, the buy-in, *nothing more than that*; it is the *offensive* spells and SLAs that make the kills *happen*, and *that* is what separates divine casters from "gold seal hirelings". There is nothing special about "healing the group"--what makes a divine caster is the ability to up that kill count.

    I am 100% sincere when I say this.

    Reverse the nerf on divine casters asap if you please.
    Restore full divine casting contribution with prejudice.
    Thanks.

    P.S. thank you very much for posting this madfloyd

  2. #42
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Asking the devs.

    Please devs, I'd really like to know. Why do you want everyone to be sorcs?
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Why these spells?
    These spells are not affected either by Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or both, and never have been.
    I think that's all you need. It looks like nothing affected by Maximize or Empower should get 1/2 power, and sorc SLAs are affected by those metamagics. Plus, they are SLAs of an actual spell, so I think the Sorc and Archmage SLAs that are actual spells were unaffected to make them identical (with the exception of SP cost, cooldown and for Archmage metamagic settings).

  3. #43
    Community Member RavenStormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    I noticed that my Artificers Rune Arm was doing way too little damage. So much for spell power increasing effectiveness.
    Did you happen to change equipment.. I only ask becauxse my greater acid rune arm (ddo store i've been terribly unlucky with drops) was hitting for 90-120 per shot x 4 of course before the update and is still doing the same damage after the update.

  4. #44
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    Thank you very much for the detailed and well-reasoned response. I have a happy cleric.
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  5. #45
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    First of all thanks for giving an explantion, it took a lot of guts to say anything official on the forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total. This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.
    Okay, so everyone gets a buff from the spell power formula but divines, everyone has more hp and melees can easily reach 1000+ hp but Heal and Mass Heal HAS to be kept at pre U14 levels? You don't see a problem with that?

    Also, why are slas for wizards nerfed but sorc ones are left as is? Double standard much?

    Could we know which runearms where randomly chosen to be OP and have the -80% so we can avoid them pls?
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  6. #46
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Crystal Clear!

    Thanks for the clarification/explanation....

    It' very refreshing.

  7. #47
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    Also, why are slas for wizards nerfed but sorc ones are left as is? Double standard much?
    Aw, but they're free*

    *disclaimer: Must have a torc, or be warforged scroll-reconstructing/chug healing pots out of form, or be reliant on the healer just as a supreme-cleaving barb is to not spend SP getting your HP back. If OPnes persists for more than 3 mods, consult your local clonk.
    Last edited by Scraap; 07-12-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  8. #48
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Default OP or slight nerf, lesser healing spells?

    Very informative MF. Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I know we werent entitled to this information but you all provided it anyways.

    I read through the entire thread.... and please correct me if I'm wrong. I played a divine for a life well before U14, and haven't played divine since.

    It seems that Turbine was faced with a choice: Either let heal/mass heal (and others listed) receive the full benefits from SP and be MUCH more powerful than before U14, or nerf them some. It doesn't seem that there was a viable way, with SP implemented for them to just "stay the same". They were going to change somehow... and increasing the effectiveness of these spells by that much was the greater of two evils.

    Which leads me to the question: as a divine, for healing purposes, are other forms of healing (cure X wounds/mass cure x wounds) more viable as your go to healing spells? I know for things like shroud where you would have to fire off several masses back to back (usually alternating between mass csw, mass ccw, mass heal in harder difficulties).

    Are these other healing spells able to pick up the slack where heal/mass heal have fallen a bit short now? Just wondering, because it seems like this should be the case... and that you should be just as capable as a healer, when using the appropriate gear/metamagics with these "lesser" healing spells.

    And I apologize if I'm demonstrating my ignorance here, not having played divine post U14 again yet... just trying to find out if the sky really is falling for divines, or if there are alternative means to cope just as well.

    Thoughts?
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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I'm not an arti expert at all... but I have to wonder. Given what running does to a rune arm charge, the time it takes to actually charge up, the speed reduction when charging, the complete utter LACK of hard/soft targeting and even mouse targeting doesn't work well, shots missed due to terrain and pattern of the shot....

    (I mean hell, I'm not a mouse targeter, but I have NEVER gotten more than 2 hits on the ship dummy target, with a fully charged up "The Turmoil Within", perfectly lined up, several feet back, on equal elevation. It should register 4 hits.)

    Did they really need to be nerfed so much?
    Don’t forget: Got shafted on Implement bonuses. Runearms don’t get implement bonuses, and there are no red/colorless slot potency effects. Also, Artificers actually need to use a damaging weapon in their main hand.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  10. #50
    The Hatchery Roland_D'Arabel's Avatar
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    Firstly, as everyone else has stated, thanks for the info. But...

    Was it really so hard to put this information together for the players? This is exactly the sort of detailed explanation that should be put forth when major changes to the game mechanics are introduced. Not just when things don't seem to work, not just when there is a huge out cry on the forums, but every time.

    The mechanics of this game get more and more confusing as the game grows and ages. If Turbine wants to grow it's player base and increase player retention (which seems a logical assumption to make) the game has to be more user friendly. I don't mean easier, just easier to understand with information readily available from the source. We, as players, should not have figure things out for ourselves every single time... game mechanic changes should not be "vast and mysterious".

    Please, please seriously consider what I am saying and use this event as a learning experience going forward. Players don't and won't always like changes, but understanding the changes to prevent the perception of "stealth nerfs" is pretty important don't you think?
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  11. #51
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Firstly, I'd like to thank MadFloyd for coming up with this sincerely thought-out post. This kind of communication will sure pay off for you guys in the future.

    I'd like to second justagame's feelings here that you guys have overshot the reduction though.

    My belief is that the current heal multiplier is too low, and that it is reducing the power of a lot of people's Heal spell, especially those that relied on empower healing. I do not believe this was your intention, and would suggest some tweaking.

    Mass heal has been boosted for pretty much everyone not decked out in T3 alchemicals. This is a good thing(TM) for pretty much everyone but the most obstinate grinders out there, who should be the ones most compensated for their effort.

    Moreover, Heal is worse for a lot of level 20s too, as I will show in a minute. I'd like to note that, to break even with the new system, if you have empower healing, it's very hard, because the empower healing multiplier has itself been reduced.

    The previous multiplier for Heal (and mass heal if you had an alchemical weapon) was 1.9 (superior devotion gear and life magic enhancements) * 1.5 (empower healing) = 2.85, which is the equivalent of 185 spell power. Discounting empower healing and enhancements: 185 - 75 - 80/2 = 70 effective spell power. This means you would need 140 devotion spell power in your gear to compensate for it, that is, a +120 devotion, +21 implement bonus staff just so you can break even. This is ridiculously harsh, especially since this does not exist in level 20 gear, and makes it even worse for clerics/souls that want to swing melee weapons.

    I'd seriously suggest this 50% multiplier is raised a bit, so that a level 20 character with 90 devotion (appropriate gear for a level 20 character) slotted gets the same benefit as before.

    90 * x + 80 * x + 75 = 185
    x ~ 0.65 ~ 65%.

    If this base 50% multiplier were raised to 65%, people with level appropriate gear and empower healing would get the same benefit as before, and people without empower healing but with level appropriate gear would see a greater boost due to the way empower healing works, which I believe to be more in line with your original intent.
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  12. #52
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Thank you for taking time to explain your line of thinking. I don't agree with it, but at least now I understand.
    To those complaining about PMs and Artificer Rune Arms...


    Be a little more supportive when nerfs come around next time. Nobody likes being nerfed, even if it is by proxy.
    Last edited by Fefnir_2011; 07-11-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  13. #53
    Founder Osharan_Tregarth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scraap View Post
    Saved me a bug report. Thanks. Definitely explains why slapping Impulse 60 on Lucid Dreams (as high as you can fit) wasn't seeing a very measurable difference when it came to how much it chopped off a mobs red-bar.

    Clarification on Spell Power itemization for scrolling, and the intended state of crafted spell-power shards once there's time to implement that?
    Keep alert for things that just don't do anything at all.

    I've only tested two characters so far (haven't had a lot of time to play since the expansion hit), and on both of them their wearable equipment bonus effects weren't doing anything that I could tell.

    Specifically, on my wf sorc with the epic shaman's set, the elemental spell line bonuses didn't do anything. (+72, I think?)

    On my human FVS with blue dragon armor (old set, not upgraded) I wasn't seeing any change in my heal spell effect either with or without wearing the armor.

    I'm going to do some more testing tonight when I get into game, and then send out a couple of more bug reports.
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  14. #54
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    <snip>
    If this base 50% multiplier were raised to 65%, people with level appropriate gear and empower healing would get the same benefit as before, and people without empower healing but with level appropriate gear would see a greater boost due to the way empower healing works, which I believe to be more in line with your original intent.
    If this is really a problem, I would second that. 50% seems suspiciously like an arbitrary number.

    Obviously some adjustment had to be made, vice making it too overpowered, so was it chosen after testing the numbers and deemed 50% was a good reduction, or was it just set to 50% arbitrarily to see how it behaved in a live environment?

    Perhaps some gentle up-tweaking, while still making sure it's balanced, if the player outcry is really more an echo of these spells not being quite effective enough even with optimal gear?
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  15. #55
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    What Justagame said, really. Heal -was- nerfed, and to get even close to what it was before we need level 20ish stuff. Does level 11-20 really need to be nerfed like this?
    It's definitely an N-word.

  16. #56
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    Thank you for taking time to explain your line of thinking. I don't agree with it, but at least now I understand.
    To those complaining about PMs and Artificer Rune Arms...

    First they came for the melees,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a melee.

    Then they came for the wizards,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a wizard.

    Then they came for the divines,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a divine.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.


    Be a little more supportive when nerfs come around next time. Nobody likes being nerfed, even if it is by proxy.
    I spoke against every nerf I found unreasonable, even when I had no dog in the fight like when they nerfed Shad... I mean barb's Supreme Cleave.

    The problem in this case thou, healing, impacts everyone and everyone should speak against it.
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  17. #57
    Community Member Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fefnir_2011 View Post
    First they came for the melees,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a melee.

    Then they came for the wizards,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a wizard.

    Then they came for the divines,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a divine.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.


    Be a little more supportive when nerfs come around next time. Nobody likes being nerfed, even if it is by proxy.
    A good analogy? yes... appropriate? maybe not, but made me think so +1
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  18. #58
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Thank you very much, for the explanation MadFloyd:

    However this I agree with 100%:
    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    The problem I see and am experiencing with these changes:

    1. Light spells/Light sla are not scaling with level increases. So, at level 25, you are still doing the damage at a set value of a much lower level. Typically, the archon on my FvS is hitting for 36 damage per tic with the full smiting line. The light SLA is using charisma for dc and does not scale with level increase. It's hitting harder than my blade barrier with 400 or so on a lucky crit - but typically around 120-200 per cast.

    2. Blade barrier caps at level 15 with a static value for increase. With the changes to maximize/empower, it's now typical for me to see 260-290 on crit results. Before xpac, my crit result was typically 700-850.

    3. Gear consolidation does not appear to be there. It's required now to have potency/radiance/devotion/greater necro focus/greater evocation/benevolence. There are not enough gear slots available on a character to slot these items. So constant gear swapping is a requirement. The lowered values on casts coupled with higher mob hp/saves/damage output/resistances is problematic.

    Suffice to say, my grievance is such that an epic level FvS/Cleric does significantly less spell damage. This is a big part of what I've been trying to get addressed since these changes were listed in closed beta.

    Compare the damage please to the Sorc/Wizard/Druid. The differences are disparaging. And they appear to support the notion that a divine caster has no place in a party save healing others....

    A nerf is a nerf no matter how you sugar coat it, either I become a sub-par healer, or I gimp myself by giving up something like toughness or heavy fort or some other stat item that if not required is at least highly desirable, or I become a healbot, or I get to gear swap for every spell I want to cast. Sorry no thank you, I am very uninterested in any of those options even with your explanation, so my FvS stays solo and out of pugs.
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  19. #59
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    A good analogy? yes... appropriate? maybe not, but made me think so +1
    I thought better of it afterwards, but thank you for getting the point.

    Just because you *think* something doesn't affect you, or you're upset because you feel someone else is getting more than their fair due, doesn't mean you should sit by quietly. Divines are the people down the street, whether you realize that or not, and you should be arguing for anything that makes healing an easier task. I used to love PUGing, but a combination of endless blind tells and the mistreatment by others made me quit. So don't look at the numbers, so much as at the healers just starting out who get frustrated and don't know why, and quit.
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  20. #60
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QNecron View Post
    Though not list but;

    1) Positive Energy Burst: I'm hitting for significantly less. My cleric was 12 before the patch and is 12 now as he is apart of a static group. Nothing on him has changed, why the difference?

    2) Positive Energy Aura: Same as above, I've lost 5-9 points of heal per tick. Nothing has changed.


    I read over some reports that Sora-Kell is bugged atm but I never seen a confirmation on this so I'm assuming it is working correctly. If it is not working correctly, disregard post
    It seems like spell power items that are not weapons randomly turn off/on (kinda like fortification is doing but more often). I observed very weird fluctuation in my aura and burst results. Also my pale master necrotic blast damage range was all over the place: should be 29d6 (in theory no mention of a cap on caster lv) with 210 spell power (18 implements nullification 102, PMIII) so average of 208 damage (sp only boosting by 105%) and crit for 416. That's not even close to what I'm seeing, I'm seeing once in a blue moon some crits above 400, but I'm seeing damage as low as 60 and most damage seems to be 120.

    Note that the DC on that SLA should be 10+5+3(magister)+3(major focus)+2(greater focus)+18 (int)= 41 so on EN shouldn't be much enemy save. So might be that not all necro DC are applying correctly on top of that problem.
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