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  1. #101
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udalric View Post
    Please check Silver Fire spell 200% sure it's broken. Description says about 100-160 dmg base - we are getting 50% less. I would also like to ask why only Druids have new divine spells and why Avenging light was nerfed by 50% in u14.1?
    Wait really? The one thing I just loved about the FvS destiny was a half decent offensive sla for my evoker cleric...
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  2. #102
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Well, you would think so.

    Divine caster: Hey barb, you want heals?

    Barbarian: Why would you even ask that when you know the answer?

    The real agenda here is pretty straight forward. A lot of melee want divine casters nerfed so they have no choice but to follow the melee around and be their "healer". A powerful Heal and Mass Heal? The divine caster will just run around killing undead, wasting spell points that could be used to heal melee.

    The social dynamic in this game has regressed to that reality, and it doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. It is hard to imagine that is a viable social dynamic for the long term health of the game, but the melee players screaming that Heal and Mass Heal can't be made too powerful apparently don't seem to care.
    There are no melee players screaming that heal and mass heal are too powerful. Alot of people in these threads who play melee AND divine AND arcane realized early on that this is not a nerf in effectiveness. There is no tinfoil hat hidden melee agenda.

    Ironic that youre picking on barbarians through multiple threads on this same topic, and then accuse others of having a specific agenda regarding divines, simply because they disagree with the overexagerated claims that divines are now somehow second class unplayable characters, when in fact, they are single handedly the classes who are soloing epic elite content the most.

    Sure there is a vocal minority (less than 1% of all forumites, who are less than 5% of the total game population) who cry for nerfs of everything that they dont play that has any sort of power, but those people dont relegate their nerf requests to divines, I assure you.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udalric View Post
    Please check Silver Fire spell 200% sure it's broken. Description says about 100-160 dmg base - we are getting 50% less. I would also like to ask why only Druids have new divine spells and why Avenging light was nerfed by 50% in u14.1?
    This. Avenging light is WAY down today, and Silver fire never even hits the low end of its stated damage range.

  4. #104
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    The real agenda here is pretty straight forward. A lot of melee want divine casters nerfed so they have no choice but to follow the melee around and be their "healer".
    You are mistaken. And this erroneous assumption is affecting all your feedback.

    the melee players screaming that Heal and Mass Heal can't be made too powerful apparently don't seem to care.
    Most melee players would love to see Heal and Mass Heal cure 1,500 points every time. If you took a poll, a majority of players would be for it, including most people on this thread.

    The devs are smarter than that; it's sad that only a few of us posters agree with their position.
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  5. #105
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    Thanks for being honest. Also, for explaining it to people. Did it two or three times, pretty much got ignored every time.

    Also while I like what you did mathematically, it REALLY takes away from the feel of D&D. The old system, with Roman numerals and language like "lesser-superior" just FELT more D&D. This feels more MMORPG. Which, I know, is what this is.

    Anyway, I know it's too late to go back to the old system, but I think there were easier ways to balance this. Like, for instance, simply not drop higher level epic spell damage loot. I know, I know, crazy! Stop the monty haul dynamics of the game instead of changing the entire rule set for the sake of balance.

    But anyway, it's cool you finally answered our plea for honesty!

  6. #106
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    If we see certain spells under-preforming or that are in need of help, we now have the ability to tweak them upwards as needed, in whatever incremental amounts work best to nudge them into place.
    Does this mean you (as in development team) will finally take a look at the abysmally bad performance of sonic spell damage?

  7. #107
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    double post
    Last edited by Razcar; 07-11-2012 at 03:35 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    The way it was before U14 is not some sort of holy point of reference that we should stick to forever. The heal and mass heal spell usually healed for more than necessary before U14. Making it heal a few percent less will not change that much. It's just a little tweak, and you can never have it be exactly the same as before in the current system. It all depends on gear setup... for some it will even be a bit stronger. Calling such a change 'wrong' sounds a bit strange to me though, as heal remains a killer healing spell, capable of topping off most people with the appropriate gear.
    Mob damage = way up. Players HP = way up. Heal = way up? No. In isolation, when standing in the town testing - while still illogical despite MF's post - no big deal. But in the new more dangerous content it matters. A Heal does not fill up a melee any longer, with the 1000-1200 HP they have now.

    This makes play more boring for many divines that does not healbot, i.e. do nothing but watch red bars while having a max Devotion staff equipped at all times. I think whack-the-redbar is quite boring, but mixing it up with DPS and instakills it's fun. Now I have to equip a devotion staff (your "appropriate gear") and spend more time healing the increased mob damage and filling up those increased PC redbars. That is IMO wrong, boring and pigeonholes divines. The devs do not want the Heal spell to scale with the new content, both PC content and quests.
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  9. #109
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    Default Could you answer this

    will heal and mass heal always be last if our hp goes past 2k and stuff like that? i would hope that you will boost the % so we can heal our toons hitting those insane hp ranges because before motu a heal or mass heal would nearly heal them.

    Now it barely touches 25% of their life meaning you need to spend more sp to heal someone back to full. So im just saying will we see a % increase if hp keeps going up because honestly 400hp wont cut it if their hp at 2k.

  10. #110
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    will heal and mass heal always be last if our hp goes past 2k and stuff like that? i would hope that you will boost the % so we can heal our toons hitting those insane hp ranges because before motu a heal or mass heal would nearly heal them.

    Now it barely touches 25% of their life meaning you need to spend more sp to heal someone back to full. So im just saying will we see a % increase if hp keeps going up because honestly 400hp wont cut it if their hp at 2k.
    Yeah seriously Devs what are you doing?

  11. #111
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    And everyone has SOME AC and PRR and dodge now...

    Tons of hit points with damage mitigation makes healing easier, not harder.

    And there's an easy-to-get +7 STR, +2 insight CON, 30% heal amp item that every new player (and most vets) are going to want to wear.

    A lot of variables have changed. It's just silly to say "My heal used to heal for 450, now it only heals for 400! I'm not playing my divines anymore until this is fixed!". There's more variables than that one number.
    Yup; effective mob damage (after taking ac and prr into consideration) has gone up (unfortunately, I have no test figures to demonstrate this other than anecdotal evidence). Mass heal has gone up. Heal has gone down, being the ONLY spell that is less effective now than it was before the expansion. It decidedly deserves some tweaking.
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  12. #112
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    I understand your reasoning, but I think you have overdone it.
    Maintaining your full healing power is already more difficult, as you now need to keep devotion slotted (in additional to radiance and impulse if you do any spell damage). With the reduced overall spell power my favoured soul is healing with the heal spell for about 10% less than she was before the update, and that's even after upgrading her equipment to include a high devotion item.

    Mass heal is fine, it got a buff anyway as previously there were very few devotion IX items, but the reducing in spell power to heal should not have been so drastic, particularly with the massively inflated hit point totals people are getting.

    Can't comment on the necro spells since I haven't been playing my palemaster, but the reducing in spell power to the archmage SLAs seems also a terrible decision. These SLAs are already vastly inferior to pretty much every other arcane SLA, as they do low damage, have long re-cast timers, and are frequently saved against. Giving these full spell power might bring them in line with the necro SLAs.
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  13. #113
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    The melees running around with 1200+ HP need to take some responsibility for that big red bar and start bumping up their Healing Amp. Curative spells are unique in that the target can ALSO increase the effectiveness of the spell being cast upon them. It does not rest SOLELY on the shoulders of the healer. If you want to be an HP monster, not a problem. But do it responsibly. If a melee's HP is so high that they cannot be "effectively" healed up to full without emptying a healer's blue bar, then the melee needs to take steps to improve their own healability. If you are JUST raising your HP with no effort at making it manageable for the person who is KEEPING it up, then you are just being a mana-sponge.

    Divine offensive spells are an entirely different matter. I will withhold comment on that until there is more reliable and verifiable data on it.

  14. #114
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chette View Post
    Can't comment on the necro spells since I haven't been playing my palemaster, but the reducing in spell power to the archmage SLAs seems also a terrible decision. These SLAs are already vastly inferior to pretty much every other arcane SLA, as they do low damage, have long re-cast timers, and are frequently saved against. Giving these full spell power might bring them in line with the necro SLAs.
    My PM's slas are, well, pretty random in damage.

    The same necrotic bolt can hit anywhere from 46 to 312.
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  15. #115
    Founder Krell's Avatar
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    Thanks for the detailed response. We might be the 5%, but we also pass on a lot of information in game and on guild sites. As for rune arms, can you detail the 50-80%?
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  16. #116
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    really long post
    Your long post is some fine theory craft, but it doesn't actually address the only question I've had the whole time, and instead raises new ones about how you guys are even approaching this subject.

    First, the relevant values. These need to come first so later its easy to see what I'm talking about. I've highlighted the main detail for those who want to ignore the math.

    Pre U14 (base spell x total potency x metamagics = total)
    Heal = 564/cast = 150 (caster level 15) x 2.15 (40% enhancements, 75% ardor click) x 1.75 (cleric empowered healing)
    Mass Heal = 731/cast = 220 (caster level 22) x 1.9 (40% enhancement, 50% alchemical) x 1.75 (cleric empowered healing)

    U14 (base spell x total spell power with enhancements halved = total)
    Heal = 547/cast = 150 (caster level 15) x 3.65 (40 enhancement, 90 item, 15 implement, 100 empowered healing, 20 ardor)
    Mass Heal = 803/cast = 220 (caster level 22) x 3.65 (40 enhancement, 90 item, 15 implement, 100 empowered healing, 20 ardor)

    U14.1 (base spell x total spell power with everything halved except empowered healing = total)
    Heal = 453/cast = 150 (caster level 15) x 3.025 ((half of 80 enhancement, 90 item, 15 implement 20 ardor)+(all of 100 empower healing))
    Mass Heal = 665/cast = 220 (caster level 22) x 3.025 ((half of 80 enhancement, 90 item, 15 implement 20 ardor)+(all of 100 empower healing))

    All of that data matches 100% what I observed in game on my cleric (so radiant servant 2 is boosting empowered healing, and in those examples using an alchemical healing weapon and a tod belt ardor clicky, which prior to u14 were the top mods available).

    U14.1 Extension (using a lv25 +6/+120 implement/devotion mod, and new trinket/raid item set, at level 25, with a mix of divine epics)
    Heal = 538/cast = 150 (caster level 15) x 3.59 ((half of 80 enhancement, 120 item, 18 implement, 20 ardor, 15 psionic, 65 epic)+(all of 100 empower healing))
    Mass Heal = 897/cast = 250 (caster level 25) x 3.59 ((half of 80 enhancement, 120 item, 18 implement, 20 ardor, 15 psionic, 65 epic)+(all of 100 empower healing))

    This last data set is simply an extension to show what a top setup might currently be, which is relevant for Turbine's decisions. As far as I can tell, the best item possible is a +6 implement (holy symbol of lolth, or an artificer enchanted weapon) combined with a +120 devotion item. If it is possible to generate a +6/+120 held item, then artificer enchant it, you could go 1.5% higher but those amounts can be overlooked for the purposes of this comparison. I've also used +65 spellpower from Epic Destinies. I'm sure someone will find a better combination but using the two divine options twisted together seemed the most reasonable and accessible combination, without using the entire tree and tons of fate points. Furthermore, I went ahead and assumed that the trinket/weapon item set could be fit in... despite the fact that those are the same two slots the other healing mods go in, just for the sake of argument here.

    Conclusion #1: The Heal spell is the weakest its ever been.

    Anyone can look at those numbers and see, Heal went down down down, only to go up a little bit after fully adapting to epic conditions.. and still falls short of where it was. I cannot offer any justification for the design decision, but I do question it. With the HP totals of players going up (and I'd say in most cases dramatically, but for now just that they went up is enough), why was there any concern that the only viable higher level single target heal went up? And I don't mean went up significantly... I mean went up at all. Because right now, it went down. Even after epic'ing up and re-itemizing, it still went down.

    Turbine, please offer me some example of an item I haven't seen, or some epic destiny I've overlooked, which shows this as wrong? I am happy to wade through some more technical details, if thats what it takes, but I'd like to think this wasn't the intended result...

    Conclusion #2: Mass Heal is alright; it suffers some double scaling issues, but it came out alright

    Again, plainly visible in the data. The behavior of Mass Heal does actually follow the logic of your Theory Craft post, Madfloyd. This is because both the Caster Level went up with the expansion, and also the change to Spell Power affected which effects worked on it. Thus, the attempt to modify it actually did result in the expected change. The downside? That between 20 and 25, and all the item/epic grind that goes with it, heals got weaker. This is probably compensated by the fact that other Mass Cure spells did increase, so it could be called a wash. But healers in those level ranges will probably spend more mana as a result. Overall I'd say this was an acceptable change, it achieved the desired top end without dropping the middle out too badly. Additionally, your target was clearly stated as 11-20, meaning that 21-25 wasn't yet at its desired balance, and some change is acceptable.

    This is directly different from the Heal spell, in that there are other alternative mass heal spells, and that the top values did justify a change. Heal has no alternatives, and the top values don't justify a change (at least, one of this amount).

    Conclusion #3: Empower Healing is moving towards a Feat Tax, if you use Heal and Mass Heal

    The examples above are for a Cleric, with Radiant Servant. That means 1) Empower Healing is taken, and 2) It contributes for 100 instead of 75. Now, if you're a FvS, consider that... your numbers will likely be exactly 150 or 250 (respectively) lower than the ones above. And even if you did take the feat, they will still be down 37 and 62 (respectively).

    Without this feat, even the 'Turbine' data set only heals for 388 on a Heal, and 647 on a Mass Heal. That's going to be painful to use... very, very painful, if its even usable at all. This feat is almost mandatory for anyone intending to heal using these two spells.

    All of which leads me, finally, to Question #1: What about the future end game made you feel this was necessary?

    With HP totals easily nearing or clearing the 1k mark, even on non tanks, what was the incentive to keep Heals down so much? Do not misunderstand me, it is clear from my above work that some sort of coefficient was required. Without them (or with all the other changes, depending on how you look at it) it is quite possible that Heal and Mass Heal would've gone too high. I am not saying that I think the current situation is ideal (in case that wasn't plain either, 50% on Heal is too low, and the emphasis on Empower Healing is way overdone). But, I can recognize that some change was needed.

    However, why was one this severe chosen? You plainly state:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack
    Looking at the above, no, it wasn't. The numbers changed a lot. That, or your in-house versions of what was "level appropriate" varies considerably from the norm (at least on Sarlona). And also includes things like universally taking and using Empowered Healing on any Clr/FvS, which isn't too accurate. Etc etc. Obviously, I am mostly focused on the Heal spell here, getting foci for Mass Heal prior to U14 was questionable, and the spell came out alright. But Heal is another matter.

    Point being, can you offer some benchmark examples or values of what you used to reach your conclusions? Can we offer some insight/input into whats a more real situation? What, exactly, are you expecting average to be? What is your vision on how things should look at 25? Are you intending it to take 3 casts of Heal to top someone off? Is it intentional that Empower Healing be essentially required in Epic content? Is the goal to shift everyone onto spamming Mass Cures and ignore Heal and Mass Heal? Was the intention to limit the effectiveness of higher HP totals (since once lost the first time, you only have as many hp as you're healed anyhow)?

    In short, can you offer some specific combinations/builds/scenarios which support your new numbers... or maybe change the new numbers to ones which fit better?

    And also, from the new non-heal related changes, Question #2: What was the change in design direction for the other stuff?

    Rather than redo the above post for everything on the list, I'll just throw one quote here to show what I'm talking about and then move on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Spell Power also applies to spell-like abilities that do not accept metamagics. (Pale Masters, for instance, should find their necrotic SLA's significantly more effective.)
    Okay, so now the idea is that "Pale Masters should find their necrotic SLAs exactly the same" because "Spell Power is reduced on abilities that do not accept metamagics". Um, okay, thats a bit totally opposite of the original intent.

    I hope my thoughts on the matter are useful, I really would like to know exactly whats going on, and why precisely it was thought these values would work, when they only partially do. And that math wasn't some crazy mystery voodoo, whoever is in charge of things over there should have been able to easily do the same thing. So, whats up? With all that? And thanks for the chance to ask. Cheers.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    Which is all kinds of dumb when you think that: they need us but we don't need them.

    You'd think they'd want their healers happy, alas they seem to think: "healer = caster, caster nerf good for melee!".
    When you step back from the day to day churn in this game and look at the underlying issues, it is clear the the social dynamic is just broken, and it is not hard to see why.

    Everyone does DPS, which is what one would expect in an MMO. Divine casters contribute heals and buffs. Arcanes contribute buffs. Melee? Um.....

    Sorry, melee just aren't kicking back something to the party in a way that makes casters want to run with them. In an MMO with a properly functioning social dynamic, that would not be the case.

    Unfortunately, instead of fixing the base problem, we are currently stuck in a cycle where we are nerfing/capping divine caster damage while grossly inflating melee damage, in an attempt to coerce casters, and especially divine casters, to run with melee. That kind of tactic might work at a job where someone gets paid, but it simply won't fly in something meant as entertainment.

    Well, what would make casters want to run with melee? What do casters always want more of? Spell points. If melee contributed back to casters by a tax on their melee damage that ticked away filling a caster's blue bar, you can be sure casters would be lining up to run with melee toons.

    I actually suggested this back in January, in one of the Let's Talk threads if I recall correctly. After no one responded, I reposted it and asked what people thought. They told me they ignored it, because I had to be joking.

    That is the current state of the game. A melee contribution back to casters, that would actually make casters want to run with them, is considered so ludricous that it has to be a joke. Melee players want to build only for DPS and HPs, and then game the system to get divine casters to run after them, tossing heals at whatever pace is required.

    Sorry, the current system is just broken, and its time to put a more realistic one in place.

  18. #118
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    EDIT: Never mind, didn't see the whole cleric thing, sorry for that.
    Last edited by DarkForte; 07-11-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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  19. #119
    Community Member Sgt_Hart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubyprime View Post
    Thanks for the explanation MF. I've been waiting for a real post on this.

    I understand the reasoning and the concern.

    However I spent the time and effort to grind out a Superior Devotion IX item.....

    TLDR:
    I am in the 1% that was nerfed.
    Adding implement bonus and slightly increasing the Spell power of alchemical items would balance this.
    I'm in that 1% as well, and the Less Spellpower Augmented coupled with the Welcome to U14, there are better caster sticks in the trash, is what really get's to me. Thanks and +1 for putting it well, and without the /rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    I suspect the latter. I've seen no evidence that any divine offensive spells other than the one named in the original post of this thread (Summon Archon) gains reduced benefit from Spell Power. All my testing has shown they're all spot on for the 100% that we have them set to.

    I think this is just a case of the one person who tried to test it actually used Summon Archon to do so, then the "light spells are getting half also" word just spread around, despite being inaccurate.
    Yanno, considering the predator-cannon Is effected by No meta-magic's.. I really wonder about the half efficiency there..

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Your numbers are off. Empower Healing Spell is 50%, not 75%.
    Empower healing tool tip reports it at +75 Spellpower.
    Last edited by Sgt_Hart; 07-11-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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  20. #120
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt_Hart View Post
    Empower healing tool tip reports it at +75 Spellpower.
    I know. I was talking about the old values. I just forgot radiant servant II used to make empower heal go for 75% instead of 50%. My mistake.
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