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  1. #161
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    My question is based on the fact that these spells that get only 50% spell power from items and enhancements, are spells that do not work with Maximize or Empower. I am asking from a purely curious place as to why Reconstruct is not on this list.

    Unless I am wrong about the similarities between Reconstruct and the other spells on this list, I believe it to be a valid question. That belief has been confirmed to me by others asking the same question.
    Heal and mass heal get effected by empower healing - but not empower or maximise.
    No meatamagcis other than quicken apply to reconstruct.

    Thus reconstruct has always yeilded a lower base amount of healing. infact a fully repair specced forge casting reconstruct on another forge would do less 'healing' than a radiant servant casting heal - even if the warforge had only 'healers freind 1' and no heal amp slotted at all.

    Additionaly heal cures all sorts of nasty status effects, recon only gives a speed boost - which is minor and importantly doesnt stack with haste.

    The way to balance them out would be to allow empower to effect reconstruct, drop the speed boost thing and apply heals status removal effects. at the minute they are not balanced.
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  2. #162
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    Heal and mass heal get effected by empower healing - but not empower or maximise.
    No meatamagcis other than quicken apply to reconstruct.

    Thus reconstruct has always yeilded a lower base amount of healing. infact a fully repair specced forge casting reconstruct on another forge would do less 'healing' than a radiant servant casting heal - even if the warforge had only 'healers freind 1' and no heal amp slotted at all.

    Additionaly heal cures all sorts of nasty status effects, recon only gives a speed boost - which is minor and importantly doesnt stack with haste.

    The way to balance them out would be to allow empower to effect reconstruct, drop the speed boost thing and apply heals status removal effects. at the minute they are not balanced.
    I could be wrong here, and again, I don't play wf, so I probably am, but won't the enhancements that can be taken by a wf caster more than make up for Empower Healing? If so, then I wouldn't see that as a valid argument, but again, I'm no expert!
    When asked, "What are we going to do tonight?" the only acceptable answer is, "The same thing we do every night...Try to take over the world!"
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  3. #163
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
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  4. #164
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
    Thanks for the update, appreciate the heads-up.
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    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  5. #165
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
    Cool, thanks for letting us know!
    When asked, "What are we going to do tonight?" the only acceptable answer is, "The same thing we do every night...Try to take over the world!"
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  6. #166
    Community Member Ninety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
    I hope caught in the web and madstone's get in patch 2.

  7. #167
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    I could be wrong here, and again, I don't play wf, so I probably am, but won't the enhancements that can be taken by a wf caster more than make up for Empower Healing? If so, then I wouldn't see that as a valid argument, but again, I'm no expert!
    Warforged, along with elves, gain some measure of arcane casting penalty reduction while wearing higher tier armors/bodies.
    Warforged gain healer's friend, which increases their 50% benefit from healing spells to up to 75% of base benefit.
    Warforged gain no other casting-related benefits.
    The full list of their enhancements can be found here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Warforged_enhancements
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  8. #168
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    I could be wrong here, and again, I don't play wf, so I probably am, but won't the enhancements that can be taken by a wf caster more than make up for Empower Healing? If so, then I wouldn't see that as a valid argument, but again, I'm no expert!
    na your wrong... sorta.

    Technicaly a fully repair specced forge is repairing for more than they were, up from 300 to 360 ish.

    compared to a fully heal speced cleric down from 450 ish to 375 ish.

    assuming comparable gear both before and after udate and gear that we were wearing, typicaly a sup pot 6.

    With ml 20 gear (typicaly element dedicated 90 point)

    your looking at recon landing for just over 400 and heal landing for just over 400. The coments about forge repairing them selves for 700 to 800 is a crit.

    What actualy occured here is recon is now balanced vs heal (assuming the divine has emowered healing - which most do)

    I will confess that recon is effectively 5 to 10 points cheaper to cast - as its not empowerable.

    On the flip side tho heal fixes all those nasty stat effects and recon only fixes base hp (and a useless buff that doesnt stack with haste)

    also remeber the prevalence of heal amp and total lack of repair amp.

    To my mind these are now nicely balanced in comparison to each other. With the partial advantage to mele oriented clerics that spell power from items is less effecitve and thus choosing to slot consolidate by wearing a potency item is not going to hurt them too much relative to those clerics wielding 2 scepters or a stave.

    The more i understand this change the more i agree with it, not just for recon but for heal too.

    all that being said tho..

    im not sure healing 400 hps is sufficient for either heal or repair considering we have tanks heading for the 2k hp mark!
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  9. #169
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    I could be wrong here, and again, I don't play wf, so I probably am, but won't the enhancements that can be taken by a wf caster more than make up for Empower Healing? If so, then I wouldn't see that as a valid argument, but again, I'm no expert!
    EDIT: I just realized i merged two lines of thought and part of my post is worded incorrectly. Fixed it to be accurate.

    Recon does not benefit from Metas. In addition, all repair-line spells cannot be boosted by "Repair Amp" (it does not exist). They can ONLY be further boosted by items and enhancements. And they can ONLY be used on WF -- unlike curative spells, which can be used on any toon that isnt immune (IE: PMs and WF/Arties with certain builds, etc.) -- toons that specifically choose to be immune to it.

    Repair spells have a very specific, limited use, and they come with no other side benefits like various curative spells do. As such, they NEED to be better than their counterparts. Not to mention, the classes that carry these spells (mainly Sorc and Wizard) do not get a free heal-slot like clerics and are not "healer classes", so they have to give up an offensive or buff spell-slot in order to take repairs -- which means they are already giving up something else that is used in their party role. In exchange they get the ability to self-heal (assuming they are WF) -- provided they also invest in enhancements that also do not serve any other purpose for their class's typical role in a party.

    I will say this again as I have in other threads: folks who are disgruntled over the the 50% sPOW for heal spells need to stop trying to browbeat Turbine into stomping on arcanes (or anyone else for that matter) out of spite while hiding behind a guise of "fairness" or "balance". That kind of silliness only hurts your case as you end up rallying those other players against you. And in any case, its NOT fair or balancing to try and nerf repair spells. They already come with limitations that balance out the fact they "heal" for as much as they do -- on very specific targets. Based on what i have seen and read, once players accept that they need to do some re-gearing to use the new system, rather than trying to get the same mileage out of their pre-u14 gear (which does NOT perform the same under the new system), they will realize that the 50% sPOW to heal and M.Heal are NOT nerfs, but simply a balancing act based on what toons SHOULD now be using.

    Incidentally, I have never seen a recon hit for 1000+ even on a crit, but its not uncommon to see several positive-energy-based spells and abilities do so -- especially on toons with high heal Amp. Kindly stop trying to get them to make an unnecessary nerf to repairs just to make yourselves feel better about your own spells. Instead, lets focus on the reports of reduced sPOW application to divine offensive spells, since -- if the reports are accurate -- it would seem to indicate that something is NOT WAI with them.

  10. #170
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    Warforged, along with elves, gain some measure of arcane casting penalty reduction while wearing higher tier armors/bodies.
    Warforged gain healer's friend, which increases their 50% benefit from healing spells to up to 75% of base benefit.
    Warforged gain no other casting-related benefits.
    The full list of their enhancements can be found here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Warforged_enhancements
    Those are wf enhancements, not caster enhancements

    Wizard here and Sorcerer here

    Note that above I said enhancements that can be taken by a wf caster.
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  11. #171
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
    Bleh... I feel for ya. Ok, In waiting mode for my question to be answered then.

  12. #172
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Repair-line spells do not benefit from Metas, they cannot be boosted by "Repair Amp" (it does not exist). They can ONLY be boosted by items and enhancements. And they can ONLY be used on WF -- unlike curative spells, which can be used on any toon that isnt immune (IE: PMs and WF/Arties with certain builds, etc.) -- toons that specifically choose to be immune to it.

    Repair spells have a very specific, limited use, and they come with no other side benefits like various curative spells do. As such, they NEED to be better than their counterparts. Not to mention, the classes that carry these spells (mainly Sorc and Wizard) do not get a free heal-slot like clerics and are not "healer classes", so they have to give up an offensive or buff spell-slot in order to take repairs -- which means they are already giving up something else that is used in their party role. In exchange they get the ability to self-heal (assuming they are WF) -- provided they also invest in enhancements that also do not serve any other purpose for their class's typical role in a party.

    I will say this again as I have in other threads: folks who are disgruntled over the the 50% sPOW for heal spells need to stop trying to browbeat Turbine into stomping on arcanes (or anyone else for that matter) out of spite while hiding behind a guise of "fairness" or "balance". That kind of silliness only hurts your case as you end up rallying those other players against you. And in any case, its NOT fair or balancing to try and nerf repair spells. They already come with limitations that balance out the fact they "heal" for as much as they do -- on very specific targets. Based on what i have seen and read, once players accept that they need to do some re-gearing to use the new system, rather than trying to get the same mileage out of their pre-u14 gear (which does NOT perform the same under the new system), they will realize that the 50% sPOW to heal and M.Heal are NOT nerfs, but simply a balancing act based on what toons SHOULD now be using.

    Incidentally, I have never seen a recon hit for 1000+ even on a crit, but its not uncommon to see several positive-energy-based spells and abilities do so -- especially on toons with high heal Amp. Kindly stop trying to get them to make an unnecessary nerf to repairs just to make yourselves feel better about your own spells. Instead, lets focus on the reports of reduced sPOW application to divine offensive spells, since -- if the reports are accurate -- it would seem to indicate that something is NOT WAI with them.
    I am not brow beating anyone. I am not sure where all of the anger in this post comes from. I am just asking a question. If you're answer is that Reconstruct doesn't need a nerf, I don't think that is answering the question. I thought the question was obvious. Hopefully Madfloyd will touch on this when he gets to this thread on Monday or Tuesday.

    Also, I do understand the balancing act. I wish they would simply change actual spells, but I have no game-changing problem with them doing it this way.
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  13. #173
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    I am not brow beating anyone. I am not sure where all of the anger in this post comes from. I am just asking a question. If you're answer is that Reconstruct doesn't need a nerf, I don't think that is answering the question. I thought the question was obvious. Hopefully Madfloyd will touch on this when he gets to this thread on Monday or Tuesday.

    Also, I do understand the balancing act. I wish they would simply change actual spells, but I have no game-changing problem with them doing it this way.
    You obviously did not read my post then. I DID explain why repair-line spells do not need a nerf AND why they are already balanced against curative spells. In addition, the OP already explains why they did not change the spells themselves and the reasoning behind the sPOW reduction on a few spells/SLAs. I also broke it down in a different way for anyone who didnt quite follow what was said. I will link the post in a minute....

    Here it is: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=64

    Hope that helps to clarify it a bit

  14. #174
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    You obviously did not read my post then. I DID explain why repair-line spells do not need a nerf AND why they are already balanced against curative spells. In addition, the OP already explains why they did not change the spells themselves and the reasoning behind the sPOW reduction on a few spells/SLAs. I also broke it down in a different way for anyone who didnt quite follow what was said. I will link the post in a minute....

    Here it is: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=64

    Hope that helps to clarify it a bit
    Ummm, I was talking about Reconstruct, not the Repair line.
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  15. #175
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    Ummm, I was talking about Reconstruct, not the Repair line.
    You DO realize that Recon is the top of the repair line, right?

  16. #176
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    You DO realize that Recon is the top of the repair line, right?
    Unless I am mistaken (as I said, I do not play a wf caster and I have only researched a little on the wiki) the Repair line, like the Cure line are affected by Maximize and Empower. Reconstruct and Heal are not. That is why I and others in this thread have asked why Reconstruct is being treated differently than Heal.

    No brow beating. No hostility. Just purely curious.
    When asked, "What are we going to do tonight?" the only acceptable answer is, "The same thing we do every night...Try to take over the world!"
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  17. #177
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    Unless I am mistaken (as I said, I do not play a wf caster and I have only researched a little on the wiki) the Repair line, like the Cure line are affected by Maximize and Empower. Reconstruct and Heal are not. That is why I and others in this thread have asked why Reconstruct is being treated differently than Heal.

    No brow beating. No hostility. Just purely curious.
    Well there is a big difference between the Cure line and Heal, an it is in what you get additional. Cure may restore some spell points but Heal as well eliminates conditions like: Ability damage, Blinded, Dazed, Exhausted, Poisoned etc.

    While WF was previously totally immune to poison and disease those additional curative effects weren't added to Reconstruct, but instead granting an increase in attack speed and I guess a temporary healing/repair amplification if I am not mistaken.

    Those things make those two spell superior to the regular cure/repair spells.


    TLDR Version: (Quick Summary)
    • Some spells gain reduced benefit from Spell Power.
    • This is because they are not affected by one or more metamagics.
    • This keeps them approximately the same or a little better than they were before the expansion.
    • This maintains the preexisting balance between those spells and other spells.
    • If you want your spells to be as strong as possible, use an item that boosts that specific type of Spell Power.
    PS: Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!
    Last edited by SisAmethyst; 07-12-2012 at 05:51 PM.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  18. #178

    Default long post, I apologize

    Some general responses and opinions....


    The problem with reconstruction is that it is very subpar healing compared to heal. Like mentioned there is no empowered repairing feat and no repair amp, and it doesn't remove the status effects, and it can only target one race.

    I could see half spell power as an effect if we were only looking at WF arcane casters because self healing is a bit carried away in that case, IMO, but tbh those casters don't have over the top hp in the first place and the players who can make use of the reconstruct healing benefits would be WF melees, who can stand the bit of help, IMO. The ability to jump cast does more for those casters than full spell power to reconstruct.

    I can see a case for reconstruct as the exception to the reduced spell power rule.

    The reason heal and mass heal take reduced spell power is because the base healing spells outside of meta's were all improved in the new spell power system while meta's were nerfed. Those spells that didn't use the meta's in the first place would have received a much larger benefit from the changes because of that. Even for those who farmed superior devotion IX because +50% much less than +105% from 90 devotion and 15 implement (both easy to get at those levels), and even after half spell power 52% is still more than 50%.

    The assumption wasn't that the same gear would be as effective, the assumption was that players who regeared appropriately would be effective. Continuing to rely on potency is not effective, although I think potency could stand to be higher than it is.




    Regarding the continued comments on silver fire:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    "Silver Fire" isn't a player spell. It's an NPC ability that, when created, accidentally overwrote the description of an existing spell (Searing Light, I believe).
    You're still casting the exact same Searing Light you always have. The description issue is fixed internally, and will go live in a future patch.
    Silver fire is a description error. Searing light caps on 5 dice of damage at level 10. It's doing standard damage for searing light as expected and getting full spell power when I test it out on my cleric. I have yet to see any discrepancies in offensive spells based on spell power changes on my cleric. I do see a reduction in the benefits of maximize and empower on several characters.




    Clerics and favored souls who are complaining about the nerfs to offensive spells from meta stacking (this isn't everyone and I recognize this ) are simply in the same boat as every other class, and the comments about reduced spell power for some class SLA's like archmage or palemaster over sorc are not taking into consideration that those sorc SLA's were already nerfed with the meta changes. If a player thinks he or she has found a spell that is not getting the expected spell power then bug report it; it's easy enough to calculate what the spell power should be and then spam it enough for a good sample to measure min, max, and mean damage values.

    Anyone who think clerics and favored souls should get some benefit that doesn't exist for other classes also impacted by meta changes might want to think the reasoning through for that. It deserve bigger numbers because I want to be an offensive caster doesn't really cut it when all offensive casters hit that nerf.

    I would highly recommend adding active spell power to the mouse over on the hotbars, similar to the current DC values.




    As far as "I'm being pigeon-holed into a healer" comments.....

    First, these classes are healers. They are able to heal other players, among other things.

    Second, that doesn't mean that is all they can or should do. It's silly to spam a heal if greater command prevents more damage than a person would have to heal.

    Third, the players who continue to post about healing with a continued focus on the heal spell and mass heal spell are pigeon-holing themselves by continuing to perpetuate a perceived need to have these spells in order to heal the parties in the first place. Asking for more spell power for these spells creates that pigeon-holing effect. It would be far more productive to request reduced damage output in epic elite so these spells are not required while boosting the effectiveness of other healing spells in order to move away from the healbot approach as well as promoting more damage mitigation.

    Fourth, it is not necessary for healing to fill up the red bars; it never has been. Healing is about the ability to keep the party alive which mean above the risk lines and faster than damage is coming in without blowing wads of SP in the process.

    That means when I'm looking at healing I'm not waiting for the party to be at 50 hitpoints before hitting a heal, nor am I making sure every red bar is full. Those 1100 hp characters will still be fine if they are at 800 hp like the rest of the group if that is not at a dangerous level of hp. If that is a dangerous amount of hp for one of those characters but not another that isn't an issue with healing ability but an issue with that particular character for whatever reason.

    Honestly, I can remember when 2 casts of cure moderate wounds would fill up a red bar. Just because the hit points went up doesn't mean I should still be able to do that, and that's what some of the comments about the heal spell boil down to. The expectation to continue to have the same spell do more healing just because the hit point totals went up is an unrealistic expection, IMO.

    Those are some of my opinions and observations, in response to comments in this thread an others but directed at no one specifically.




    Here is the short version of feedback to help the devs:

    1) it's fine to give reconstruct full spellpower
    2) I haven't seen any discrepancies in expected spellpower on my cleric
    3) I would like to see my current spellpower for any given spell with a simple mouse over
    4) potency is incredibly unattractive being so far behind specific bonuses and the universal spellpower should be increased
    5) I disagree with some of the sentiment that heal and mass heal need more than 50% spellpower


    Long post, my apologies
    Aash

  19. #179
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    1. Why would you want to keep HEALS the same, when mob damage, player hp is way up? You never say WHY it is so important to keep heal and mass heal down, just that it is a goal.

    2. Sorc damage is WAY up, melee damage is WAY up, heals, blade barriers and light damage are ALL down a significant amount, EVEN with beating your head against a wall trying to slot devotion/impulse/radiance AND spell implement item AND keeping clickies up. That doesn't seem right or fair.

    3. Why pick these spells to nerf? What do you have against divines? Again and again you swing the nerf bat against them, or just overlook them. No divines pugging=dead ddo. Dead ddo=you have no job. It is a very subtle thing and a very slippery slope. I'll keep playing my divines but many will not if they have bad experiences healing.

    4. Reconstruct gets a massive buff, and heal gets nerfed...because it removes stat damage/harmful effects? That is B.S., are you playing the same game? 90% of the time I am tossing a heal when on my fvs/clr it is to heal damage, big damage, and now it can't even really do that. It ALREADY costs 60 sp when quickened and empower heal going, MORE than 45sp quickened reconstruct.

    5. Nerfing archmage SLAs....REALLY? Less nerfing, more fixing! Really, the amount of POINTLESS (ask yourself devs, ARE evocation archmages overpowered? Are they?) nerfs while bugs run around ruining the game is shocking. It has never been this bad.

    6. Because empower/maximize don't work on an ability is NO reason to nerf that ability when everything else is getting buffed.


    Thank you for the response thread devs. I know you didn't HAVE to do this. Please handle this better next time. It is really frustrating playing the guessing game of what is WAI or a bug; what going to be nerfed or changed...if it is your character that is broken or the system.

    It is pretty much along the lines of what I expected in terms of explanations for this nerf-that these spells didn't need it, that groups were doing fine without those spells being buffed. This was before you broke healers friend, before elite epic mobs hit harder than normal horoth, before players were knocking on 2k hp.

    The game is changing, let heal change with it. You CLEARLY did not bother keeping top melee dps at the 400-500dps level. You clearly didn't keep sorc dps in check. Nor mob damage, nor player damage mitigation...the list goes on and on...

    Why did you feel the need to only keep heal spell the same (or lower), and nothing else?

  20. #180
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auralana7214 View Post
    Unless I am mistaken (as I said, I do not play a wf caster and I have only researched a little on the wiki) the Repair line, like the Cure line are affected by Maximize and Empower. Reconstruct and Heal are not. That is why I and others in this thread have asked why Reconstruct is being treated differently than Heal.

    No brow beating. No hostility. Just purely curious.
    Fixed an error in my post regarding repairs and Recons.

    It has already been explained (by multiple posters) why Heal and Recon are treated differently. If you just want Turbine to put the official stamp on the same answer, ok -- but it will be the same answer: Repair-line spells are ONLY usable on WF (well...and Self-Forged Arties and their dogs), and Recon does not come with all the other bells and whistles that Heal (and M.Heal) does; Repairs also cannot be augmented by the target's Healing Amp.

    Heal affects more targets, has more benefits, and can be augmented by more things. Heal is also a staple spell on any healer-divine. Recon is almost exclusively carried ONLY by arcanes who are WF. Oh yes -- and Recon cannot be used offensively, whereas Heal can.

    The two spells are apples and oranges.

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