CLW 10 avg hp *3.2 = 32.0 hp for 6 sp or 5.333 hp/sp
CMW 21 avg hp *3.2 = 67.2 hp for 8 sp or 8.400 hp/sp
CSW 31 avg hp *3.2 = 99.2 hp for 12 sp or 8.267 hp/sp
CCW 42 avg hp *3.2 = 134.4 hp for 20sp or 6.720 hp/sp
Heal 150 hp *2.1 = 315 hp for 40sp or 7.875 hp/sp
MCLW 30 avg hp *3.2 = 96 hp for 25sp or 3.840 hp/sp/target
MCMW 36 avg hp *3.2 = 115.2 hp for 35 sp or 3.291 hp/sp/target
MCSW 41 avg hp *3.2 = 131.2 hp for 40 sp or 3.280 hp/sp/target
MCCW 47 avg hp *3.2 = 150.4 hp for 45 sp or 3.342 hp/sp/target
Mass Heal 250 hp *2.1 = 525 for 50 sp or 10.500 hp/sp/target
Heal is more SP efficient than mass cures even at 2 other characters healed and takes at least 3 party members on a mass cure to beat SP efficiency. While it's true that the low cost of CMW and CSW do place them at a better SP cost efficiency than heal that cost efficiency is close while the hp/sec efficiency of heal far outstrips either spell it more than makes that up.
Mass Heal still makes every other healing spell look gibbled in hp/sec or hp/sp even at half spell power.
I'll add in empower healing, with RS in brackets:
CLW 10 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 39.5 hp (42.0) for 16 sp or 2.469 hp/sp (2.625)
CMW 21 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 82.95 hp (88.25) for 18 sp or 4.608 hp/sp (4.900)
CSW 31 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 122.45 hp (130.2) for 22 sp or 5.566 hp/sp (5.918)
CCW 42 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 165.9 hp (176.4) for 30 sp or 5.530 hp/sp (5.880)
Heal 150 hp *2.85 (*3.1) = 427 hp (465) for 50 sp or 8.540 hp/sp (9.300)
MCLW 30 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 118.5 hp (126.0) for 35sp or 3.386 hp/sp/target (3.600)
MCMW 36 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 142.2 hp (151.2) for 45 sp or 3.160 hp/sp/target (3.360)
MCSW 41 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 161.95 hp (172.2) for 50 sp or 3.239 hp/sp/target (3.444)
MCCW 47 avg hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 185.65 hp (197.4) for 55 sp or 3.375 hp/sp/target (3.589)
Mass Heal 250 hp *2.85 (*3.1) = 712 hp (775) for 60 sp or 11.867 hp/sp/target (12.917)
Higher base cost with higher base healing increase efficiency while adding any more meta's simply cripples SP efficiency more while still failing to meet hp/sec efficiency.
This is what Heal and Mass Heal would look like with full spell power:
Heal 150 hp *3.2 = 480 hp for 40sp or 12.000 hp/sp
Heal 150 hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 592 hp (630) for 50 sp or 11.840 hp/sp (12.600) - EmpH
Mass Heal 250 hp *3.2 = 800 for 50 sp or 16.000 hp/sp/target
Mass Heal 250 hp *3.95 (*4.2) = 987 hp (1050) for 60 sp or 16.450 hp/sp/target (17.500) - EmpH
That is too much SP efficiency to go with hp/sec efficiency. The spells are far too high on the base numbers to apply full spell power without stripping the usefulness of other healing spells too much. Heal is highly efficient and mass heal really destroys other spells for efficiency, even at 50% spell power.
And there is no need to be able to hit 1 button for 1050 hp of healing before healing amp on any character. The fact that heal is less effective in the new content is fine because no other single target healing spell is adjusted to the new hp totals either; it caps at level 15 so the expectations on it's use in level 23 content might be high.
My ToD gear is **** now as it has no spell power
My Cleric set from SoS is **** +72 for 2 and +78 for 3 and Heal now receives a very noticeable reduced and benefit. So my grind for this highly sought after Lorriks set was all for naught?
All my superior Potency items are vender trash?
I'm sick, I'll have to delve inot this more after work.
Last edited by Jacoby; 07-14-2012 at 07:07 AM.
I do use Superior Healing Lore, so crits hit. They do. And I will never deny that I like seeing those big numbers. So do the melee. And the ranged. And the non-self healing arcanes. EVERYONE liked big heals. Except recently. I have been accused of over-healing. AFTER I got Superior Healing Lore. My definition of over healing is throwing more spells to heal less and wasting sp(like using CCWM for 88sp rather than Heal, Mass for 58) Their's seems to be getting hit with a heal that critted. Those same people proudly post their crits in party chat and on their bios. AND I AM NOT POINTING FINGERS AT ANY CLASS SAYING THEY SHOULD BE NERFED. Please be very, very clear on that.
I am saying that crits happen on well geared/well built toons. They should. It is a little pat on the back for taking the time and making the effort to gear and build your toon right. The difference is that only the person throwing the spell or wielding the weapon actually sees the damage. EVERYONE sees how much my heals hit them for. If they happen to have good heal amp then some of the crits can be massive.
That is the same as the arcanes or melees occasionally getting their massive crits on foes made weakened to one type of damage or another. That is the way it is supposed to work, right? And no one judges the arcanes or melees over-powered strictly based on their crits. So, why are divines being told they are over-healing based on ours?
I find it terribly coincidental that DDO gives us convenient-to-use superior healing lore items in one update, then gives us a nerf to heal on the next. Especially as that is the exact time period when I started hearing the phrase over-healing and seeing it on the forums.
And, let me address the whole Heal can be used offensively issue: It can ONLY be used offensively against one type of foe, undead. It is like having an undead bane or disruption weapon in your inventory, available and wonderful, but only used situationally. AND it does much less damage to undead than it heals for. So don't think I am doing 600+ damage to an undead on a single heal. It is more like 350-400 on a good roll. And NO critting. Ever. Don't ask me why. Ask the devs. This fact added to the cool-down makes this a terribly inefficient method for killing undead compared to disruption weapons or offensive spells used by arcanes. My clerics do get Radiant Servant to kill undead with, but FVS get NOTHING extra to help.
Last edited by susiedupfer; 07-14-2012 at 07:21 AM.
Orien: Zizie, Zeelee, Zeeny, Zeety, Zeleste, Zeeby
Im going to raise a concern here that has not bene touched on much.
That is using heals and radiant burst vs undead.
In older content at lvl a single heal spell folowed by a swift whak was doom for most undead.
Mass heal dito for groups.
radiant burst did a heck of a lot of damage, generaly acting as an insta kill vs groups of undead.(you know the way turn should)
In the new content there is so much hp inflation its now taking 2 or 3 mass heals intersperced wit radiant bursts to wipe out a group of undead, compared to say a sorc who can blast them to pieces with one or 2 spells still.
There is hp inflation of players, but there is more hp inflation of mobs.
As far as im concerned heal and mass heal are WAI in heroics, the numbers are perfectly viable for keeping your group alive and killing undead.
In epics however its not the case - due to both player and mob hp inflation.
I there fore suggest:
1. epic desitny exalted angel gets a tier 1 ability that increases the MAX CASTER LVL of healing spells. bringing heal closer to mass heal. i say tier 1 so its easily twistable.
2. epic destiny exalted angel + positive spell power enhancemnt grants tripple bonus when used offensively vs undead.
3. any epic destiny or prestrige that massively increase hp also grant a respective amount of heal amp and repair amp. these would include most of the mele epic destinies and both the paladin and fighter defender prestiges.
4. radiant burst healing to be increased - somthing like double its current effective ness for both healing and damage vs undead. I cant put my finger on why but this ability realy seems to be underpowered to what it was - the aura is fine still tho.
Ex Euro player from devourer: Charaters on orien(Officer of Under Estimated & Nightfox): Wrothgar, Cobolt, Shadeweaver, TheMetal, Metaphysical, Allfred, Razortusk and many more.
stuff by me: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...02#post4938302
An update to my prior posts here.
As the formulas showed, if you used Amrath clickies before, your Heal was nerfed. For fvs around 11%.
But... if you were onnly using Sup Pot 6+, then you were not nerfed. As much, anyway.
Fvs with Emp Healing, Sup Pot, and full Life line:
Heal = 150*1.5*(.5+.4+1)= 427.5
Which is the same as after U14 (although to get this, the above fvs has to get his amrath clickies, too, as well as +102 devotion item and +18 implement). So, if you were only using Sup Pot before, you can reequip, though at a higher level and the cost of more gear slots, to the same level of heal you had.
The nerf, in this case, consists of getting more and better gear to keep the same effect you used to have.
So, it seems that the nerf was, once again, mostly to high end players. Mediocrity ftw!
<seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>
Back when I first started playing my cleric, and spell points were in much shorter supply, I made a spreadsheet to find the most efficient healing spell at any given level, equipment, etc. Over time I've modified it to stay current with the changes to healing.
Plugging in your numbers we get:
One thing I did notice is that I copied the CCW cost incorrectly from another sheet I was experimenting with a while back. I had it listed as costing 16, which would have put it in line with CMW and CSW. Ergo my incorrect statement. The CCW efficiency drop seems like an oversight on the devs' part that I hope gets looked at at some point, but I digress.
And don't forget that Mass Heal caps at 100 points higher than Heal and is balanced by a significantly longer cooldown, and a casting time that can be measured by geologists. Practically speaking, you're almost always going to have to quicken it for it to be useful, which is why I listed the casting cost as 60.
Oh, and one last thing about Heal, it makes no sense to me why they removed heighten from its possible metamagics. If you don't want to use it, the Update 9 mechanics took care of it nicely, and you would still retain the possibility of using it against undead if you wanted. Now, not so much.
+1 to Rylak.
Not that I'm big fan of numbers, I just saw something that made my jaw dropping on the floor so loudly, I had to apologise people from next 3 districts.
I'm not sure if someone mentioned it, but one of the problems about the 'solution' you have chosen, MadFloyd, is that the evolution of the gear is somewhat crippled. If you want to give new gear affecting Heals in the future, you will have to add two times more devotion than you'll give with any other spell modification. And by this time, I fear you will have forgotten that devotion is only giving half benefits.
As other posters said, this also makes an unclear exception, which is a bit a strange when the main objective was to make it clearer. Maybe it would have been better to touch the main effect instead of the modifiers (for example, Heal healing X / level, with X different from 10).
Finally, I hope your clarification doesn't imply that the case is closed and no further investigation is needed, because it seems the half results apply to other divine spells than the ones you mention. I saw no official clarification that it wasn't WAI.
Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )
Heal was the best single target healing spell before the update. It has always been the go to spell for healers when a player takes spike damage. A nerf to the healing spell (even if it's only 10%) when monster damage is increased is a HUGE nerf for healers when they should be seeing a 30-40% increase like everyone else.
TLDR: Balance the spells at the base via SP cost, damage output, casting time, or cooldown. Make the spellpower system a simple 1% for each spell.
Cannith - Noehealz, Protectorjon, Noebuffs, Mortion
I have only used them when burst healing is required (almost never if you are managing everything well and have decent party), as mass heal WAS (and is) more efficient. It is a tradeoff in casting time-once you learn to time mass heal there is little to no reason to ever has mass cures.
So buff em. Nerfing mass heal because the cures are bad is like nerfing khopesh because light hammers suck. More buffing, less nerfing.
My advice would be to allow heal to scale to lvl25 caster level as well. That really would solve everything-mass heal is performing OK still, just heal is the real issue.
Still waiting on a dev answer as to WHY they felt the need to keep heal/mass heal in check and let EVERYTHING else in the game scale up. They mentioned that as a reason for reducing the spell power but there is no good reason for that motive in the first place. Do they really make THAT much off of selling store pots to desperate healers?
To be fair, I'd also like to see some answers regarding the decrease in light/alignment based damage spells. Current numbers rendered on cast suggest not to even bother while grouping. And kite city galore while running solo. Particularly when compared with other casting counterparts.
I can easily live with the heal/mass heal changes for the most part as there is an existing mechanism to bring the numbers back up. Even if it involves gear swap till drop mentality. By 'bringing in line' these two spells, requiring frequent gear swap to function, reducing by as much as 50% light/alignment/untyped spell damage - it appears the message is that the melee divine/casting divine are being hit by bat.
Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
And an army of gimp experiments!
Spamming unempowered CMW and CSW out of combat has a time component that can't compare to what heal can do so much faster already. The changes promote meta'd heal as more efficient and 2 unmeta'd cures as more efficient, which is kind of important for a couple of classes with their smaller SP pools and lack of higher healing spells. My personal opinion is cures could be more SP efficient with weaker healing while heals could be bigger healing for the important moments. That gives each spell a purpose; higher level doesn't mean it should automatically make all lower level obsolete in every way.
If a person has mass heal it eventually becomes cheaper to use mass heal even for single target healing, in or out of combat, including quicken in combat. The only need to use any other spell is a timer issue. In effect this spell replaces every other spell including heal for high content. Casting time and timers are what prevent it from being the only spell (getting back to higher level spells shouldn't make all lower level spells obsolete).
I would love to see cures boosted somehow because so many classes have access to them. I could see an argument for adding a bit more spell power to heal simply because it's single target vs the multi target on heal but I wouldn't want it to continue to overshadow other spells like it does and would hope that did come with someway to boost those other cure spells.
I'm glad someone brought up the issue of heal spells vs undead. You could quadruple their outgoing damage and they still wouldn't be overpowered imo. Also has anyone confirmed reduced divine offensive spells one way or the other? I can live with the healing snafu (emphasis on the afu) but reduction in a divines already low offensive power doesn't sit well with me at all.
Artificer: 18 Artificer / 2 Monk / 5 Shadowdancer
Target: vulnerable training dummy
Data collected: 10-50 samples per tier per rune arm; no critical hits; no saves
Lucid Dreams (148 spell power - enhancements + base on item)
1 charge - 69 per force ball
5 charges - 267 per force ball
With Impulse bandana (184 spell power)
1 charge - 73 per force ball (+5% over 148Spow)
5 charges - 322 per force ball (+20% over 148Spow)
Animus & Hand of the Tombs (0 spell power)
1 charge - 58 per blast
3 charges - 119 per blast (hand of the tombs)
5 charges - 173 per blast
With Combustion scepter (129 spell power)
1 charge - 126 per blast (+117% over 0Spow)
3 charges - 265 per blast (+121% - hand of the tombs)
5 charges - 377 per blast (+117% over 0Spow)
Chimera's Breath (0 spell power)
1 charge - 69 per blast
3 charges - 164 per blast
With Magnetism scepter (123 spell power)
1 charge - 104 per blast (+50% over 0Spow)
3 charges - 248 per blast (+50% over 0Spow)
Tira's Splendor (0 spell power)
1 charge - 36 per light spiral
5 charges - 162 per light spiral
With Radiance helm (102 spell power)
1 charge - 53 per light spiral (+47% over 0Spow)
5 charges - 232 per light spiral (+43% over 0Spow)
- Exploding Fire Shot was flat >90% spell power (probably not WAI)
- Force Shot gave more spell power higher the charge tier
- Electrical Blast was flat 50% (not sure if Electrical Storm is same)
- Tira's Splendor gave less spell power higher the charge tier
I didn't test:
- Toven's (dont have)
- Glorious Obscenity (have but no cheap corrosion items on AH)
- Damage types without 5 charge tier rune-arm
Last edited by FooWonk; 07-15-2012 at 01:39 PM.
Point of curiosity: How much (if any) spellpower is applied to the mechanic repair-dot, or is it still a case of getting more off a 1-level-splash of arty?
Cannith - Noehealz, Protectorjon, Noebuffs, Mortion
When asked, "What are we going to do tonight?" the only acceptable answer is, "The same thing we do every night...Try to take over the world!"
Sarlona - Auralana, Orcalana, JuicyLucy, Aquani, Wistia, Aurabella, Guildy, etc. If you see the last name Hather, it's either me or the hubby.
Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.
This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.Reload