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  1. #181
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Fixed an error in my post regarding repairs and Recons.

    It has already been explained (by multiple posters) why Heal and Recon are treated differently. If you just want Turbine to put the official stamp on the same answer, ok -- but it will be the same answer: Repair-line spells are ONLY usable on WF (well...and Self-Forged Arties and their dogs), and Recon does not come with all the other bells and whistles that Heal (and M.Heal) does; Repairs also cannot be augmented by the target's Healing Amp.

    Heal affects more targets, has more benefits, and can be augmented by more things. Heal is also a staple spell on any healer-divine. Recon is almost exclusively carried ONLY by arcanes who are WF. Oh yes -- and Recon cannot be used offensively, whereas Heal can.

    The two spells are apples and oranges.
    I'm not sure how this morphed into a conversation comparing Heal and Reconstruct. To me, the spells are very different. Starting with they are available to completely separate classes. I am sooo not suggesting that we compare the two. I simply asked why Reconstruct was not on this list of spells since it is affected neither by Maximize or Empower. I understand your point of view and yes, I would still like a response from Madfloyd on the issue. Thanks.
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  2. #182
    Founder PurdueDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just acknowledging that I have yet to READ through this thread and find the questions that require answers.

    I am deep into U14 Patch 2 bug-fix hell at the moment (deadline tomorrow). I most likely won't get to this thread until Monday or Tuesday.
    Appreciated.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Yeah I agree with this. They probably should have just changed the damage dice on all these spells that have a problem.

    1 spell power equals 1% is pretty simple. It's too bad there are exceptions to it.
    Confusing and inconstant is the way to go.

  4. #184
    Community Member Alaunra2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    99% of us got a buff to Mass Heal because we never even had an Potency IX or Devotion IX item before U14.
    *reads that*

    ...

    *reads it again*

    Thank you for this reduction. The change always felt okay but I could never adequately state why it was.

  5. #185
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    Thank you for the detailed explanation.

    Before the update my lvl 16 melee FvS used Superior Ardor clickies to enhance both his Heal and mass cures. That left both hands free to use paralyzers/vorpals/dps weapons. Heal would hit me for about 430hp per cast and I was able to reliably cast it without resorting to quicken due to having 48 concentration. I do not have the Empower healing feat, only Maximize (to qualify for the PrE and boost DP and BB), but I did take the positive enhancements to lvl4.

    Post update, Heal only hits for 240hp, while monsters now consistently hit me for 50+ dmg. Thus I have to cast more often and apply an additional Meta (quicken) depleting my meagre sp pool significantly faster. In fact in the last few pugs I've run I had to hang back playing a dedicated healbot, a role that the toon is not suited for (all those build points in str and melee feats go to waste) and I do not enjoy.

    I have yet to find a non-weapon devotion item, perhaps you can help direct me as to what choices I have?
    Is Empower Healing now an absolutely required feat for all divines?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Fixed an error in my post regarding repairs and Recons.

    It has already been explained (by multiple posters) why Heal and Recon are treated differently. If you just want Turbine to put the official stamp on the same answer, ok -- but it will be the same answer: Repair-line spells are ONLY usable on WF (well...and Self-Forged Arties and their dogs), and Recon does not come with all the other bells and whistles that Heal (and M.Heal) does; Repairs also cannot be augmented by the target's Healing Amp.

    Heal affects more targets, has more benefits, and can be augmented by more things. Heal is also a staple spell on any healer-divine. Recon is almost exclusively carried ONLY by arcanes who are WF. Oh yes -- and Recon cannot be used offensively, whereas Heal can.

    The two spells are apples and oranges.

    So heal got nerfed because healing amp exists in the game even though most people don't use it?

    Or maybe (as another player was describing) it got nerfed because the empower healing feat exists even though the feat has been balanced with an added SP cost. Even though many players were healing without that feat.

    The reason the question of reconstruct comes up is not to ask for a nerf of the spell but because the Dev explaination was that spells that were not affected by maximize and empower before the update got an increase that was higher than spells that were affected by maximize and empower. So those spells were selected to get the lower spellpower from items and enhancements to help keep them in check.

    It really isn't a question of how recon compares to heal other than the fact that they allowed recon to get a significant buff but they refused to do so with heal (and many people such as myself feel that heal should have gotten the same buff). If they want to make arbitrary spell balancing decisions there are other methods of doing so such as cooldown timer, casting animation times, spellpoint cost, and base damage. Doing it via spellpower from items only serves to complicate a system which was implemented to make things more simple.
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  7. #187
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    So heal got nerfed because healing amp exists in the game even though most people don't use it?

    Or maybe (as another player was describing) it got nerfed because the empower healing feat exists even though the feat has been balanced with an added SP cost. Even though many players were healing without that feat.

    The reason the question of reconstruct comes up is not to ask for a nerf of the spell but because the Dev explaination was that spells that were not affected by maximize and empower before the update got an increase that was higher than spells that were affected by maximize and empower. So those spells were selected to get the lower spellpower from items and enhancements to help keep them in check.

    It really isn't a question of how recon compares to heal other than the fact that they allowed recon to get a significant buff but they refused to do so with heal (and many people such as myself feel that heal should have gotten the same buff). If they want to make arbitrary spell balancing decisions there are other methods of doing so such as cooldown timer, casting animation times, spellpoint cost, and base damage. Doing it via spellpower from items only serves to complicate a system which was implemented to make things more simple.

    No, because heal didnt get nerfed in the first place. If you gear properly under the new system, you will see similar numbers as before. The folks who are complaining they arent getting that are the ones who are not updating their gear, but instead trying to force the same results out of their old gear -- which no longer works as it did. And folks choosing to NOT work on their heal amp are essentially the same as the divine who refuses to accept that they have to rethink their gear optimization. As I have said, its time for folks to start taking a little more responsibility for for their own HP. If someone was lazy about their H.Amp pre-u14, well then they need to get UNlazy about it now if thy want to keep their 1200+ HP toons above 50%. This is like a Savant complaining about their damage numbers on a boss when they dont use their elemental weakness debuff -- ever.


    Once again, Recon and Heal are apples and oranges. Heal gets alot of benefits that Recon does not. Balancing sPOW on Heal is NOT a nerf -- it puts it roughly in line with how it performed pre-u14, assuming that players gear and build similarly for the NEW system as they did for the OLD system. Recon is a different animal altogether. It IS getting more benefit under the new system than the old system, but it was already a much inferior spell to the divine equivalent (Heal). It didnt matter much before, because WF were innately immune to alot of the negative stat effects. With u-14 came a significant nerf to WF immunities. Recon getting additional healing (esp given that there is not Repair Amp in the game) is just fine as a token recompense for it. Whats more, why would anyone in their right mind complain that a WF (arcane) is better able to heal himself, thereby reducing the demands on the so-called gimped divine? Seems to me everyone should be glad there is one less person to worry about.

    Now if devs decide to give Recon some of the same stat removal benefits (which they SHOULD, given that they stripped WF of their immunities), then yes I would say they should look at Recon and sPOW after that.

    In the meantime, folks need to stop lashing out at arcanes over a perceived nerf by the devs and trying to get devs to punish arcanes for something they had nothing to do with. Your Heal and M.Heal spells werent nerfed -- your optimization was changed, and until you get that sorted, you are going to continue to see crappy performance -- just as arcanes did they reoptimized THEIR gear.

  8. #188
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Default Thanks all for the suggestions...

    You were correct. I needed to switch to Thaumaturgy quarterstaves to regain much of my previous healing ability. Not all, but enough that I am no longer feeling like I have been completely gimped.

    Here is the new issue, however, to do that I lose my Alchemical Heavy Shield. And to take advantage of the new cleric gear, I had to switch my Epic Cavalry Plate for Breastplate of the Shining Sun. With a loss of AC from 54 to 36. With mobs(not just bosses) in the new content hitting for more, I have one word...OUCH. Any suggestions on this one?
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    No, because heal didnt get nerfed in the first place. If you gear properly under the new system, you will see similar numbers as before.
    I beg to differ.

    Before, we had: Base*(1+meta)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with empower healing, amrath clickies and Life IV: 150*1.5*(.75+.4+1) = 483.75

    Now, we have: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    150 + 150*.75 + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*150 = 427.5

    So, a 11.6% less heal. With much, much better gear than before, and using more gear slots. That is a nerf in my book.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  10. #190
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Before, we had: Base*(1+meta)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with empower healing, amrath clickies and Life IV: 150*1.5*(.75+.4+1) = 483.75

    Now, we have: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    150 + 150*.75 + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*150 = 427.5

    So, a 11.6% less heal. With much, much better gear than before, and using more gear slots. That is a nerf in my book.
    Hmmm...OK this is definitely is not kosher. I did a similar projection on my cleric earlier and got much better results; not sure where my math went wrong in it, cos I checked your figures multiple times and they come out right. Even allowing for the fact she is an RS with better Emp.Heal, it should not make THAT much difference in the comparative calculations. There is definitely a reduction -- though it is NOT the ZOMG Healers are so unplayable now!!! nonsense that is plaguing the forums.

    I think the solution here (for Heal) is to just set its cap to 25 like M.Heal. M.Heal already got a boost for most people just by making it easier to item-boost it, so it is fine. Raising the cap would set Heal to the same amount as M.Heal, and the only difference would be single vs multiple targets and SP-efficiency depending on situation (casting time aside).

    The other alternative is to tweak sPOW up 20% for Heal only -- but that would create more odd math issues. Plus bumping the spell itself would benefit EVERYONE, not just the top-geared toons. In addition, raising Heal's cap would give healers some of the juice they want to deal with higher HP toons. Those toons STILL need to bump their H.Amp rather than leaving all of the work on the healer, though.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Hmmm...OK this is definitely is not kosher. I did a similar projection on my cleric earlier and got much better results; not sure where my math went wrong in it, cos I checked your figures multiple times and they come out right. Even allowing for the fact she is an RS with better Emp.Heal, it should not make THAT much difference in the comparative calculations. There is definitely a reduction -- though it is NOT the ZOMG Healers are so unplayable now!!! nonsense that is plaguing the forums.

    I think the solution here (for Heal) is to just set its cap to 25 like M.Heal. M.Heal already got a boost for most people just by making it easier to item-boost it, so it is fine. Raising the cap would set Heal to the same amount as M.Heal, and the only difference would be single vs multiple targets and SP-efficiency depending on situation (casting time aside).

    The other alternative is to tweak sPOW up 20% for Heal only -- but that would create more odd math issues. Plus bumping the spell itself would benefit EVERYONE, not just the top-geared toons. In addition, raising Heal's cap would give healers some of the juice they want to deal with higher HP toons. Those toons STILL need to bump their H.Amp rather than leaving all of the work on the healer, though.
    I have had odd results (+/- 10% healing off heal spell without changing anything that ought to matter), so maybe that's it?

    The math, as per the figures presented, says heal is nerfed. Until they say that they formula as presented isn't WAI, I'm assuming that anyone getting better healing than MF's first post in this thread indicates is simply bugged, and subject to "fixing" at a later point.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I have had odd results (+/- 10% healing off heal spell without changing anything that ought to matter), so maybe that's it?

    The math, as per the figures presented, says heal is nerfed. Until they say that they formula as presented isn't WAI, I'm assuming that anyone getting better healing than MF's first post in this thread indicates is simply bugged, and subject to "fixing" at a later point.
    Heal is approximately the same as it was before the update if you bother to gear your character properly however, the issue is that every other spell got buffed. The reasoning behind the nerf is that because heal relied less on metamagics so in a world where metamagics got nerfed heal would gain the most benefit (the same is true for recon which is why that question was brought up). The issue is that with this change every other spell gets a buff so by keeping heal the same I refer to it as a nerf but call it what you will.

    Even though mass heal got a slight increase in power I still refer to this change as a nerf because they specifically singled out this spell for decreased power from what it otherwise could have been.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    Heal is approximately the same as it was before the update if you bother to gear your character properly however, the issue is that every other spell got buffed. The reasoning behind the nerf is that because heal relied less on metamagics so in a world where metamagics got nerfed heal would gain the most benefit (the same is true for recon which is why that question was brought up). The issue is that with this change every other spell gets a buff so by keeping heal the same I refer to it as a nerf but call it what you will.

    Even though mass heal got a slight increase in power I still refer to this change as a nerf because they specifically singled out this spell for decreased power from what it otherwise could have been.
    Do try to look at my math. It shows clearly that that is not the case. With better gear than before, heal still heals for 11% less.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  14. #194
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    Heal is approximately the same as it was before the update if you bother to gear your character properly however, the issue is that every other spell got buffed. The reasoning behind the nerf is that because heal relied less on metamagics so in a world where metamagics got nerfed heal would gain the most benefit (the same is true for recon which is why that question was brought up). The issue is that with this change every other spell gets a buff so by keeping heal the same I refer to it as a nerf but call it what you will.

    Even though mass heal got a slight increase in power I still refer to this change as a nerf because they specifically singled out this spell for decreased power from what it otherwise could have been.
    The problem is that, leaving Heal NOT receiving reduced sPOW would make it WAY more powerful. It would be Recon that works on all toons and has stat removal benefits as well AND is subject to Healing Amp -- thats a tad much. I think bumping up the cap on it to match M.Heal would work best, as it would not be such a drastic increase, and would also put it in line with its Mass version -- just like the cure spells. And since it would scale with the caster, its not like you are going to see a lvl 11 toon casting a 3K heal -- except MAYBE on someone with ridiculous H.Amp -- but thats going to take alot of time and effort for both of those players..

    Also, leaving the cure spells alone means that healers get a bump in effectiveness on them, giving them more options than JUST tossing Heal or M.Heal and nothing else. It means the efficiency of those spells all got a boost, which in turn saves SP when using them. Now you have the option of rotating a M.Cure spell in, instead of a scroll, or using M.Cure and scrolls instead of M.Heal. Among other things, this gives you better resource management and more spell-slot choices except in the very high-end damage range.

    Finally, Heal and M.Heal were not singled out -- there were several spells and SLAs that received the same treatment -- for similar reasons: the current system would have thrown them way out of balance with the other spells. All we need at this point is some fine-tuning to nudge them back into place.

  15. #195
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Balancing sPOW on Heal is NOT a nerf -- it puts it roughly in line with how it performed pre-u14, assuming that players gear and build similarly for the NEW system as they did for the OLD system
    I beg to differ. I am not too familiar with how the math goes for this on clerics, but for favored souls, the break-even point for Heal is at 140 spw if you had empower healing, 100 spw if you didn't (assuming you weren't using clickies and had a superior devotion VI item). I'm pretty sure there is no ML 20/21 item with 140 spell power on it for us to regear to.
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  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    No, because heal didnt get nerfed in the first place. If you gear properly under the new system, you will see similar numbers as before.
    No. You will in fact see slightly smaller numbers, but that is not the real issue. Instead, your mistake is that you are looking at Heal in isolation and in comparison to a DDO that is gone. You have to look at Heal in the context of 5 added levels, Epic Elite difficulty, Epic Destinies. And in that context the fact that Heal has not scaled when everything else has makes it a nerf. Not in isolation and not compared to level cap 20. But in the current game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Before, we had: Base*(1+meta)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with empower healing, amrath clickies and Life IV: 150*1.5*(.75+.4+1) = 483.75

    Now, we have: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    150 + 150*.75 + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*150 = 427.5

    So, a 11.6% less heal. With much, much better gear than before, and using more gear slots. That is a nerf in my book.
    We knew meta's were nerfed heavily so including them repeatedly in the numbers is skewing perspective. Take the meta out and you are looking at just over 2% decrease, which is close but slighter smaller in heal. Meanwhile mass heal still took a buff unless you had superior ardor IX clickies and it is the ultimate healing spell and unmeta'd cures increased in value and efficiency.

    Continue to insist on leaving meta's in the equations and we see much larger nerfs to cure spells and offensive spells for many more classes. This is because the meta's were nerfed, not so much the spells, so we should not confuse the two. Ultimately most spells benefited in some way with only a small hit to the heal spell itself. In the grand scheme heal is still the most efficient and high number single target spell available for healing spells and could afford to take a 2% hit.

    I would actually suggest adjusting the SP cost on the meta's to empower healing = 5, empower spell = 10, and maximize = 20 because of the SP cost adjustments for base spells in U9 followed by the meta nerf in U14.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 07-14-2012 at 12:22 AM.

  18. #198
    Community Member DDORylak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Hey everyone,

    We wanted provide clarifications on some of the confusion surrounding Spell Power, and to address the perception that healing has decreased in effectiveness.
    First off, thank you for responding. I understand you have a lot on your plate at the moment, and taking the time to explain some of these details is greatly appreciated.



    Let's start by looking at a few relevant quotes:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total. This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.

    ...

    One of our goals was to keep player spell damage and healing equal to, or better than, their current effectiveness.

    ...

    We set the percentages of your Spell Power for the above spells to ensure that a character, upon the release of the expansion pack, at the same level and with equipment appropriate to their level, would see similar results with those spells.

    ...

    For most players, Heal and Mass Heal are functioning approximately the same as they did before the expansion pack, and characters who use level appropriate gear have also seen small increases in the power of those spells.

    If we observe that Heal and Mass Heal are not performing sufficiently in Menace of the Underdark, we’ll address that.

    Please consider looking at healing and spell power again in the near future, particularly with regard to the Radiant Servant bonus to Empower Healing. Clerics took a pretty big hit with the U14 changes.

    For example, let's look at a level 20 Cleric with Radiant Servant II, Life Magic I-IV, and an Epic Ornamented Dagger.

    Before MotU, Heal (with Empowered Healing active) would land for 150 * 1.9 * 1.75 = 498
    After MotU, Heals land for 150 * (1 + (0.80 + 0.67) * 50% + 1) = 410

    That's quite a difference (18%). It's a difference you'll definitely notice when healing high HP tanks in challenging content.

    But potency is not the same as devotion, so let's drop the dagger and use a +4 devotion scepter we find in random MotU loot: 96 spell power + 12 implement. That's actually an ML 21 item, but we'll skip past that part.

    That will give us 150 * (1 + (0.80 + 1.08) * 50% + 1) = 441

    Closer, but not the same. Certainly not a "small buff" for using level appropriate gear.

    (Fun fact: using the level appropriate gear, unempowered cure moderate and cure serious are more efficient than an unempowered Heal.)

    So, what kind of item would we need at level 20 to merely break even in the expansion? I'll spare you the algebra. We'd need something with 184 spell power(!). I haven't seen anything like that in the loot tables, and it certainly wouldn't be ML20.

    Even a level 25 cleric with a maxed out Healing Power from the Exalted Angel ED would need a +5 Devotion weapon with 120 spell power AND a Greater Ardor buff from an Amrath belt just to match what they could do before the expansion without any buff.


    Does that seem right to you?
    Last edited by DDORylak; 07-14-2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Corrected fun fact, so that it is, in fact, factual.

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    Still waiting on an explanation on why they felt the need to keep heal constant.

    When everything else in the game is going upward-player melee damage, mob melee damage, arcane spell damage, and most importantly, player HP...really EVERYTHING but divine spell damage-it seems borderline asinine to have keeping heal the same as before as a goal.


    Let alone 11% less with MORE gear and 5 levels higher.
    Last edited by MRMechMan; 07-13-2012 at 08:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    I beg to differ. I am not too familiar with how the math goes for this on clerics, but for favored souls, the break-even point for Heal is at 140 spw if you had empower healing, 100 spw if you didn't (assuming you weren't using clickies and had a superior devotion VI item). I'm pretty sure there is no ML 20/21 item with 140 spell power on it for us to regear to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    No. You will in fact see slightly smaller numbers, but that is not the real issue. Instead, your mistake is that you are looking at Heal in isolation and in comparison to a DDO that is gone. You have to look at Heal in the context of 5 added levels, Epic Elite difficulty, Epic Destinies. And in that context the fact that Heal has not scaled when everything else has makes it a nerf. Not in isolation and not compared to level cap 20. But in the current game.
    This has already been addressed:

    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I beg to differ.

    Before, we had: Base*(1+meta)*(clicky/item+enhancement+1).
    That is, for a heal with empower healing, amrath clickies and Life IV: 150*1.5*(.75+.4+1) = 483.75

    Now, we have: Base*(1 + meta + ½(item + clicky + enhancement + implement)).
    That is, for heal with empower healing (75), 20 SP clickies, Life IV (80), 18 implement and 102 item:
    150 + 150*.75 + ½(1.02+0.2+0.8+0.18)*150 = 427.5

    So, a 11.6% less heal. With much, much better gear than before, and using more gear slots. That is a nerf in my book.
    Hmmm...OK this is definitely is not kosher. I did a similar projection on my cleric earlier and got much better results; not sure where my math went wrong in it, cos I checked your figures multiple times and they come out right. Even allowing for the fact she is an RS with better Emp.Heal, it should not make THAT much difference in the comparative calculations. There is definitely a reduction -- though it is NOT the ZOMG Healers are so unplayable now!!! nonsense that is plaguing the forums.

    I think the solution here (for Heal) is to just set its cap to 25 like M.Heal. M.Heal already got a boost for most people just by making it easier to item-boost it, so it is fine. Raising the cap would set Heal to the same amount as M.Heal, and the only difference would be single vs multiple targets and SP-efficiency depending on situation (casting time aside).

    The other alternative is to tweak sPOW up 20% for Heal only -- but that would create more odd math issues. Plus bumping the spell itself would benefit EVERYONE, not just the top-geared toons. In addition, raising Heal's cap would give healers some of the juice they want to deal with higher HP toons. Those toons STILL need to bump their H.Amp rather than leaving all of the work on the healer, though.

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