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  1. #1
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Default Healing and Spell Power

    Hey everyone,

    We wanted provide clarifications on some of the confusion surrounding Spell Power, and to address the perception that healing has decreased in effectiveness.

    The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total. This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.

    Before the expansion pack, items had Spell Damage Amplification. This was a percentage of a spell’s base damage that added together with your enhancements, and was then multiplied by the metamagics you were using with the spell. This meant that metamagics, such as Empower and Maximize, were a very significant portion of your spell damage and healing. Activating Maximize doubled the damage or healing of your spells, including the bonuses from your spell damage amplification.

    This old Spell Damage Amplification system had difficulty scaling into higher level content. Because of the way it multiplied with metamagics, even a small increase to the available damage amplification could result in a large increase to your total spell damage/healing. While this doesn’t sound bad, it made for problems in balancing increased Spell Damage Amplification from multiple sources, such as items, enhancements, and the Epic Destinies which we released with Menace of the Underdark. Had we kept the old system, we would have had to provide extremely minimal or no increases in the available Spell Damage Amplification from those sources.

    The way that portions of the old system worked were also not easily transparent to the player, and was subject to odd rules, such as items only working to boost spells below a certain level. We determined that it would improve gameplay for spellcasters if we simplified it so that all your bonuses to spell damage added together directly, and worked on spells of any level. This allows us to provide linear benefits to the power of your spells, from multiple sources, and have them stack in an easily identifiable way.

    Now with Menace of the Underdark, we have replaced Spell Damage Amplification with Spell Power.
    Every point of Spell Power adds 1% to the base damage or healing of a spell. Your enhancements and metamagics now function just like Spell Power, and it is all added together. One of our goals was to keep player spell damage and healing equal to, or better than, their current effectiveness. Because metamagics were no longer multiplying on top of the bonuses from spell amplification, we needed to make up for that somewhere else: we chose to increase the amount of power your items provide to your spells, and double the value of your spell damage enhancements.

    For example, if you have 100 Healing Spell Power on a scepter, 100 Healing Spell Power from class enhancements, and Empower Healing active (+75 Healing Spell Power), you can expect your cure spells to provide 275% extra healing, for a total of 375% of their base effect.

    To summarize, the results of these changes are:

    1. Metamagics are a smaller portion of your spell power total than they used to be.
    2. To make up for it, we dramatically increased the casting benefits from equipment and enhancements.

    For most players, this is a buff, as it provides the option to turn off your metamagics and conserve Spell Points, while still dealing capable damage.

    The spellcasting effectiveness of low to mid level characters was greatly increased as a result of these changes, while at mid to high levels, when many advanced players tended to use metamagics, their damage varies between being approximately the same to having been slightly increased.

    However, we felt some spells and abilities would be unbalanced if they received the full amount of Spell Power, so we made some exceptions, in order to maintain the current balance of the below listed spells:

    The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
    • The Heal spell: 50%
    • The Mass Heal spell: 50%
    • Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
    • Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
    • Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
    • Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
    • All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%

    Why these spells?
    These spells are not affected either by Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or both, and never have been.

    We set the percentages of your Spell Power for the above spells to ensure that a character, upon the release of the expansion pack, at the same level and with equipment appropriate to their level, would see similar results with those spells.

    If they did not receive reduced benefit from Spell Power, those spells would have been too powerful, since Spell Power amounts on items and enhancements now eclipse the old Spell Damage Amplification bonuses.

    In other words- Metamagics were not as big of a factor in making those spells good. These spells would have gained the benefits of buffing spellpower on equipment and enhancements, but would NOT have had to worry about the decreased importance of metamagics: resulting in a huge buff to these spells.
    Note that those spells still get full benefit from the metamagics that can be applied to them- Empower Healing when used with the Heal spell still provides the equivalent of 75 Spell Power, for example.

    Why not just let them get buffed?
    Answer: For the most part, they didn’t need it.

    We are always watching the performance of groups in content, and will make further changes if needed.

    For most players, Heal and Mass Heal are functioning approximately the same as they did before the expansion pack, and characters who use level appropriate gear have also seen small increases in the power of those spells. That small increase would have been a large one if we had done nothing, and we made the decision to maintain the current balance of the Heal and Mass Heal spells.

    If we observe that Heal and Mass Heal are not performing sufficiently in Menace of the Underdark, we’ll address that.

    Going forward, if we alter the Spell Power coefficient of a specific spell, we intend to update the tooltip to reflect either “This spell receives reduced benefit from Spell Power” or “This spell receives increased benefit from Spell Power”. This will allow us more control to boost “weaker” spells as needed without over-boosting already powerful ones.

    As a long-term goal, we also hope to be able to improve the player’s Character Sheet to show Spell Power for each spell damage/healing type, as well as to show other statistics that currently do not appear on it, such as increased or decreased threat, healing amplification, and others.

    What do I need to do to make sure my spells are as good as possible?
    While “Potency” items which have Universal Spell Power (which boosts all spells) are useful to make sure your spells are strong, they generally provide two thirds the amount of bonus that an item of the same level which boosts one type of Spell Power does.
    So, for example, if you want your Healing spells to be as strong as possible, use a “Devotion” item of as high of a level as you can.


    TLDR Version: (Quick Summary)
    • Some spells gain reduced benefit from Spell Power.
    • This is because they are not affected by one or more metamagics.
    • This keeps them approximately the same or a little better than they were before the expansion.
    • This maintains the preexisting balance between those spells and other spells.
    • If you want your spells to be as strong as possible, use an item that boosts that specific type of Spell Power.
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  2. #2
    Community Member whereispowderedsilve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Hey everyone,

    We wanted provide clarifications on some of the confusion surrounding Spell Power, and to address the perception that healing has decreased in effectiveness.

    The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total. This number was chosen to ensure that, cast by a level 11-20 character with level appropriate equipment, the performance of Heal and Mass Heal remains approximately equal to its performance before the expansion pack, erring on the side of a small buff to effectiveness for characters whom are diligent in upgrading equipment as they level.

    Before the expansion pack, items had Spell Damage Amplification. This was a percentage of a spell’s base damage that added together with your enhancements, and was then multiplied by the metamagics you were using with the spell. This meant that metamagics, such as Empower and Maximize, were a very significant portion of your spell damage and healing. Activating Maximize doubled the damage or healing of your spells, including the bonuses from your spell damage amplification.

    This old Spell Damage Amplification system had difficulty scaling into higher level content. Because of the way it multiplied with metamagics, even a small increase to the available damage amplification could result in a large increase to your total spell damage/healing. While this doesn’t sound bad, it made for problems in balancing increased Spell Damage Amplification from multiple sources, such as items, enhancements, and the Epic Destinies which we released with Menace of the Underdark. Had we kept the old system, we would have had to provide extremely minimal or no increases in the available Spell Damage Amplification from those sources.

    The way that portions of the old system worked were also not easily transparent to the player, and was subject to odd rules, such as items only working to boost spells below a certain level. We determined that it would improve gameplay for spellcasters if we simplified it so that all your bonuses to spell damage added together directly, and worked on spells of any level. This allows us to provide linear benefits to the power of your spells, from multiple sources, and have them stack in an easily identifiable way.

    Now with Menace of the Underdark, we have replaced Spell Damage Amplification with Spell Power.
    Every point of Spell Power adds 1% to the base damage or healing of a spell. Your enhancements and metamagics now function just like Spell Power, and it is all added together. One of our goals was to keep player spell damage and healing equal to, or better than, their current effectiveness. Because metamagics were no longer multiplying on top of the bonuses from spell amplification, we needed to make up for that somewhere else: we chose to increase the amount of power your items provide to your spells, and double the value of your spell damage enhancements.

    For example, if you have 100 Healing Spell Power on a scepter, 100 Healing Spell Power from class enhancements, and Empower Healing active (+75 Healing Spell Power), you can expect your cure spells to provide 275% extra healing, for a total of 375% of their base effect.

    To summarize, the results of these changes are:

    1. Metamagics are a smaller portion of your spell power total than they used to be.
    2. To make up for it, we dramatically increased the casting benefits from equipment and enhancements.

    For most players, this is a buff, as it provides the option to turn off your metamagics and conserve Spell Points, while still dealing capable damage.

    The spellcasting effectiveness of low to mid level characters was greatly increased as a result of these changes, while at mid to high levels, when many advanced players tended to use metamagics, their damage varies between being approximately the same to having been slightly increased.

    However, we felt some spells and abilities would be unbalanced if they received the full amount of Spell Power, so we made some exceptions, in order to maintain the current balance of the below listed spells:

    The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
    • The Heal spell: 50%
    • The Mass Heal spell: 50%
    • Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
    • Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
    • Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
    • Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
    • All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%

    Why these spells?
    These spells are not affected either by Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, or both, and never have been.

    We set the percentages of your Spell Power for the above spells to ensure that a character, upon the release of the expansion pack, at the same level and with equipment appropriate to their level, would see similar results with those spells.

    If they did not receive reduced benefit from Spell Power, those spells would have been too powerful, since Spell Power amounts on items and enhancements now eclipse the old Spell Damage Amplification bonuses.

    In other words- Metamagics were not as big of a factor in making those spells good. These spells would have gained the benefits of buffing spellpower on equipment and enhancements, but would NOT have had to worry about the decreased importance of metamagics: resulting in a huge buff to these spells.
    Note that those spells still get full benefit from the metamagics that can be applied to them- Empower Healing when used with the Heal spell still provides the equivalent of 75 Spell Power, for example.

    Why not just let them get buffed?
    Answer: For the most part, they didn’t need it.

    We are always watching the performance of groups in content, and will make further changes if needed.

    For most players, Heal and Mass Heal are functioning approximately the same as they did before the expansion pack, and characters who use level appropriate gear have also seen small increases in the power of those spells. That small increase would have been a large one if we had done nothing, and we made the decision to maintain the current balance of the Heal and Mass Heal spells.

    If we observe that Heal and Mass Heal are not performing sufficiently in Menace of the Underdark, we’ll address that.

    Going forward, if we alter the Spell Power coefficient of a specific spell, we intend to update the tooltip to reflect either “This spell receives reduced benefit from Spell Power” or “This spell receives increased benefit from Spell Power”. This will allow us more control to boost “weaker” spells as needed without over-boosting already powerful ones.

    As a long-term goal, we also hope to be able to improve the player’s Character Sheet to show Spell Power for each spell damage/healing type, as well as to show other statistics that currently do not appear on it, such as increased or decreased threat, healing amplification, and others.

    What do I need to do to make sure my spells are as good as possible?
    While “Potency” items which have Universal Spell Power (which boosts all spells) are useful to make sure your spells are strong, they generally provide two thirds the amount of bonus that an item of the same level which boosts one type of Spell Power does.
    So, for example, if you want your Healing spells to be as strong as possible, use a “Devotion” item of as high of a level as you can.


    TLDR Version: (Quick Summary)
    • Some spells gain reduced benefit from Spell Power.
    • This is because they are not affected by one or more metamagics.
    • This keeps them approximately the same or a little better than they were before the expansion.
    • This maintains the preexisting balance between those spells and other spells.
    • If you want your spells to be as strong as possible, use an item that boosts that specific type of Spell Power.
    Awesome sauce! Thanks for the detailed explanation Mad! Timbits are on the way! :P! ! Lolz!
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  3. #3
    Community Member Kits's Avatar
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    Default Thank you

    Thank you very, very much.
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  4. #4
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    and was then multiplied by the metamagics you were using with the spell. This meant that metamagics, such as Empower and Maximize, were a very significant portion of your spell damage and healing. Activating Maximize doubled the damage or healing of your spells, including the bonuses from your spell damage amplification.
    ......

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not remember Maximize nor Empower ever having any effect on Heal or Mass Heal, only Empower Healing would effect those two.
    Which could mean the changes were based on an incorrect premise.

    However, Maximize and Empower would work upon Reconstruct and still does.

    But what you say confuses me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The only two healing spells which have a non-standard interaction with Spell Power are Heal and Mass Heal. They each receive 50% of your spell power total.

    .....

    For example, if you have 100 Healing Spell Power on a scepter, 100 Healing Spell Power from class enhancements, and Empower Healing active (+75 Healing Spell Power), you can expect your cure spells to provide 275% extra healing, for a total of 375% of their base effect.

    .............

    Note that those spells still get full benefit from the metamagics that can be applied to them- Empower Healing when used with the Heal spell still provides the equivalent of 75 Spell Power, for example.
    So really the equation is not what was in red but should be %ratio of "spell"( item spell power + enhancement spell power) + if(meta ratioed, %ratio of "spell"(meta spell power), spell power)

    Or in the case of a heal spell, it should be 0.50*(100 Healing Spell Power on a scepter, 100 Healing Spell Power from class enhancements) + 75 spell power from Empower Healing = 275% Is this the value we are seeing on live? (I'm at work so can't test)
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 07-11-2012 at 12:10 PM.

  5. #5
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd
    Going forward, if we alter the Spell Power coefficient of a specific spell, we intend to update the tooltip to reflect either “This spell receives reduced benefit from Spell Power” or “This spell receives increased benefit from Spell Power”.
    Is it difficult to put the actual percentage that an effect is reduced/increased by Spell Power? One of my reasons for asking this is due to how you stated Rune Arms have a variable reduction based on what type of Rune Arm, but we have no way of knowing which Rune Arms have which degree of reduced Spell Power gains. Is Force Shot 50%, 65%, 80%? Is Exploding Cannonball Shot 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%? And the other Rune Arm shots? Actually giving the percentage would be helpful in the tooltip noting that the effect has reduced/increased Spell Power gains.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    So many have been noting that divine light spells are only getting .5 as well, is this a bug?

  7. #7
    Founder TreknaQudane's Avatar
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    I noticed that my Artificers Rune Arm was doing way too little damage. So much for spell power increasing effectiveness.
    [REDACTED]

  8. #8
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    ......

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not remember Maximize nor Empower ever having any effect on Heal or Mass Heal, only Empower Healing would effect those two.
    Which could mean the changes were based on an incorrect premise.

    However, Maximize and Empower would work upon Reconstruct and still does.
    Read it again.

    BECAUSE Maximize and Empower never worked on Heal and Mass Heal, they needed to be treated differently.

    Enhancement and item power went up, Maximize and Empower went down... Most spells are balanced by this. BECAUSE Heal never used Maximize and Empower before, they would have been buffed without any downside.

    Thanks MadFloyd for the very detailed post.

    99% of us got a buff to Mass Heal because we never even had an Potency IX or Devotion IX item before U14.

    Keep watching to make sure Heal and Mass Heal are appropriately powered, but I will say they are working just fine so far for me in epic content (although I haven't done a lot of epic elite yet).
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  9. #9
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    Default Well done.

    Well done on a solid, well written, thorough explanation/discussion and communication from the Game owners to the game players. Whether we individually agree with the change or not is irrelevant; this kind of communication helps us players understand that the change made was thought through rather than arbitrary.

    More explanations of changes like this would be terrific.

  10. #10
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    The problem I see and am experiencing with these changes:

    1. Light spells/Light sla are not scaling with level increases. So, at level 25, you are still doing the damage at a set value of a much lower level. Typically, the archon on my FvS is hitting for 36 damage per tic with the full smiting line. The light SLA is using charisma for dc and does not scale with level increase. It's hitting harder than my blade barrier with 400 or so on a lucky crit - but typically around 120-200 per cast.

    2. Blade barrier caps at level 15 with a static value for increase. With the changes to maximize/empower, it's now typical for me to see 260-290 on crit results. Before xpac, my crit result was typically 700-850.

    3. Gear consolidation does not appear to be there. It's required now to have potency/radiance/devotion/greater necro focus/greater evocation/benevolence. There are not enough gear slots available on a character to slot these items. So constant gear swapping is a requirement. The lowered values on casts coupled with higher mob hp/saves/damage output/resistances is problematic.

    Suffice to say, my grievance is such that an epic level FvS/Cleric does significantly less spell damage. This is a big part of what I've been trying to get addressed since these changes were listed in closed beta.

    Compare the damage please to the Sorc/Wizard/Druid. The differences are disparaging. And they appear to support the notion that a divine caster has no place in a party save healing others....
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  11. #11
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    Why are wizards getting this?

    Sorcs get full power on their SLA's...

    All pale masters are not as important; All archmages, not as important?

    Why do you want everyone to be a sorc?

  12. #12
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for the explanation, just one question.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    In other words- Metamagics were not as big of a factor in making those spells good. These spells would have gained the benefits of buffing spellpower on equipment and enhancements, but would NOT have had to worry about the decreased importance of metamagics: resulting in a huge buff to these spells.
    What about some of the others? Why Heal and not Reconstruct, for example?

  13. #13
    Community Member Auralana7214's Avatar
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    Let me begin by saying, Thanks for the explanation! I don't agree with some things, but at least I understand why you had to go in this direction.

    It feels like, as a Cleric, we are being pushed into one roll or another, which I despise. I don't like weapon swapping, especially when it means a quarterstaff, to get the same result as I used to. But, it is what it is and I will learn to adjust to this part, I suppose.

    Also, I don't play warforged, so maybe it is none of my business or maybe I am missing something, but (OMG, don't kill me!) why isn't Reconstruct on this list?

    All in all, I am a happy girl, just for the explanation. Next time be good Devs, and lets have more communication up front, so I don't feel ninja'd!

    Thanks!

    PS, looking forward to PREs coming out and maybe domains in our future?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    The following spells currently receive reduced benefit from Spell Power:
    • The Heal spell: 50%
    • The Mass Heal spell: 50%
    • Necrotic Touch (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Bolt (Pale Master): 50%
    • Necrotic Blast (Pale Master): 50%
    • Arcane Bolt (Archmage): 50%
    • Arcane Blast (Archmage): 50%
    • Summon Archon (Favored Soul): 50%
    • All Runearm Shots: Between 50% and 80%
    I can understand rune arms.... And understand the Necro bolt/blast.... But really? Necrotic touch? it prob NEEDED the buff due to how weak it is. and arcane bolt/blast prob could have used the buff. But you made your opinion clear on Over powered force spells when you nerfed archmage Magic missle

    Summon archon, when i used it, seemed to not do enough damage to matter IMO.

    I noticed Sorcs werent on the list of SLAs to nerf, nor the offensive damage SLAs from archmagi.

    So summary :Arties are not your cash cow anymore, so nerf them. Palemaster "dps" Is OP nerf it. and arcane bolt and blast? why not.... Oh and GL using heal/massheal.


    *takes off rage hat*

    though, thanks for clearly stating everything, really wished this didnt happen. And your list you made should be in the releasenotes

  15. #15
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Why are wizards getting this?

    Sorcs get full power on their SLA's...

    All pale masters are not as important; All archmages, not as important?

    Why do you want everyone to be a sorc?
    Because you can use metamagics on their SLAs. They will be about as strong as they always have been.

  16. #16
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Read it again.
    I read it a few times. Now I'm not saying I don't have one way of looking at it stuck in my head because I agree that I think that was his intention, but I just can't see it that way.

    However, do have a look again at what I posted as I added more. I'm curious if I got screwed up in the head (again?) with what the equation should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeebaNeighba View Post
    Because you can use metamagics on their SLAs. They will be about as strong as they always have been.
    Asking the devs.

    Please devs, I'd really like to know. Why do you want everyone to be sorcs?

  18. #18
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    I appreciate the response. Unfortunately, I think you guys overshot in this case, if the goal was to make spell outpout in the level 11-20 range comparable.

    Take the Heal spell.

    For a character with the max life magic line (life magic IV), and no metas. I also exclude healing amp since it applies equally to both cases.

    Old system, with superior potency or superior devotion:

    150 x (1+.4+.5) + 150*1.9 = 285

    New system, with the SAME equipment (sup potency VI converted, so assume sp 48 with an implement bonus of 9)
    SP = 100 + (40+48+9)/2 = 168.5. Times 150 = 252, a 12% loss.

    Now, we'd all agree that equipment is gimp, so let's toss it out, and use better at-level equipment. Say a devotion 72 item, with a 15 implement bonus. That is STILL

    SP = 100 + (40+72+15)/2 = 183, times 150 = 274, a 4% loss.

    In fact, in order to get back to your old level for heal, you would need a 100 devotion item just to break even, and get back to the old level (since half of 100 is 50, the old bonus you got in the old system, and the enhancement bonus of 40 remains the same).

    100 devotion is very high level in this new system, certainly > level 20. And that's just to get back to the old, pre-expansion level.

    Furthermore, remember the context in which this was done:

    - Increased mob damage
    - Increased hit points (in many cases substantial increases)
    - Increased damage output from your fellow casters and melees

    I'd say the adjustment is too much. Far too much. Needing devotion 100 just to get back to break-even, is NOT making level 11-20 damage comparable. It's saying to divines "everyone else is getting a boost this update. YOU need to go hunt for great > level 20 equipment just to recover what you lost, and you won't be gaining anything much above that."

    Would a radiant servant have other healing options that increase? Sure, but hardly an offset for the FVS (who, thank you very much, also saw a similar mechanic needlessly apply ot the light archon damage (this was overpowered? Really?)

    I get that Mass heal also received an offsetting boost from items applying to level 9 spells that did not before -- but Heal does not, and suffers as a result. Please consider adjusting the multiplier.

    I also believe you are seeing a reaction because of the context in which this change is occurring (more in my next post, I've been too wordy already)
    Last edited by justagame; 07-11-2012 at 12:52 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member QNecron's Avatar
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    Though not list but;

    1) Positive Energy Burst: I'm hitting for significantly less. My cleric was 12 before the patch and is 12 now as he is apart of a static group. Nothing on him has changed, why the difference?

    2) Positive Energy Aura: Same as above, I've lost 5-9 points of heal per tick. Nothing has changed.


    I read over some reports that Sora-Kell is bugged atm but I never seen a confirmation on this so I'm assuming it is working correctly. If it is not working correctly, disregard post

  20. #20
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    There are a number of recent changes, most with this update and post-update fixes, that are hammering divines:
    I already covered the aforementioned 50% spell power. Please understand how this really smacks of unfairness. You carefully create a new spellpower system (in which there is a lot to like), and then give only half power to enhancements and items affecting some of the bread and butter spells for divines. Would heal hit for more otherwise? Yes, but when you consider that mobs are doing more damage, arcanes are doing more (and getting full value for their spell power, even for higher level spells), players have more hit points, and in some cases a LOT more hit points, having heal hit for a bit more hardly seems out of whack. One could just as easily argue for a similar change on bread and butter arcane spells. After all, mob hit points in epics are DOWN, as far as I can tell. Isn't it OP for arcane spell damage to then be going up? (Note, I don't believe this should be nerfed, I am only trying to point out how this targeting of divine power seems arbitrary and unfair).

    In fact, recall when the first beta did cut down on spell damage, and the resulting protest caused metas to be bumped up accordingly. I'm sure sorcerors could kill just fine with lower spell power. But no one singles them out for this nerf because, I daresay, it would be perceived as unfair.

    It would be bad enough if the spellpower issue was all that divines were dealing with, but it isn't. I've outlined some of the other major recent issues below. So what you're seeing is more than just a reaction to that first point, it is becoming to many people the straw that breaks the camel's back.

    1. The shift to element-specific spellpower enhancements and massive reduction in the utility of clickies. Sure, this affects all damage types, but it is hitting divines the hardest for 2 reasons. First, there are many items out there with more than one damage type on them for arcanes, and even a could with all 4. I can only think of one for divines, in the new content. Secondly, the fact that melee divines, battle-clerics, what have you, is a longstanding D&D tradition (aka the warpriest), are really hurt by this moreso than other casters. An arcane doesn't have to choose between amping cold and acid damage, he can find a weapon with both on them, or wield 2. A melee divine HAS to choose between wielding a decent weapon, and getting good (healing or other) spell output.

    2. On the subject of spellpower effects from weapons, you curiously have 2 huge omissions, both of which hit divine offensive power: First, there is no lootgen superior radiance lore. We have lore for everything else, but not this. Why? Secondly, kinetic lore inexplicably does not apply to untyped damage such as blade barrier, when impulse (force and untyped) does. So, we are left with NO lore items applying to the only 2 effective divine damage types.

    3. One by one, you are killing divine buffs, not just against new content (understandable), but also ineplicably against old content. Your level 7 cleric now gets a spell that gives him/her 21 seconds of poison protection. Really? Why even have the spell in the game then? I get the need to have poison in the new content be threatening, but why the need to neuter old spells against old content? And now, the freedom of movement change is in the same vein, only worse: I understand not wanting a level 4 spell to make irrelevant the abilities of new mobs in the new content -- but again, why was it necessary to make the spell no longer relevant against most effects in the old content? And it doesn't free up a spell slot either, since at least a couple of important raid bosses toss mass hold. This is, of course, on top of things like the previous killing of holy aura, and other spells.

    4. Lastly, the Epic destinies are wanting for divines. Forget about the bugs, hopefully those will all be worked out soon (and indeed I see some in the release notes). It's that, as detailed in the thread seeking player input about it, it "feels" like a healbot destiny, with some abilities that require enormous stacks that are near impossible to keep track of. I am not doing this subject justice, but there is already a lengthy "official" thread on this, and I have already been a little wordy as it is.

    Collectively, these changes just feel like a punch in the gut to divines. Melee divines are less fun to play, and feel unwanted in this system. Divine caster builds appear truly targeted as well. And, given the enormous, eye-popping damage that sorcs have been putting out since the spell pass, it's hard to believe that divines were the class that needed to be cut down. These changes, collectively, really give the impression that turbine:

    a) Really wants divines to just heal. Offense should be less relevant/potent, and buffs should likewise be less useful.

    b) Even though you want us to just heal, at the same time, it should be harder, or more expensive, to do so.


    Please consider the collective impact of these changes, when trying to understand why a number of divines are upset.
    Last edited by justagame; 07-11-2012 at 12:53 PM.

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