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Thread: So...what now?

  1. #21
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    Why don't you enforce "gateway quests" that you have to do to get to a certain level. Like, "you can't get to level 4 before doing waterworks on elite" or "You can't get to level 7 before doing a small problem on elite" That will put a nice big door on character progression. I'm sure you can find a suitable quest on each level all the way up to 20.


    As for loot, I don' think the difference between a +1 shock light mace and a +1 holy light hammer is that big. As long as you skip the easier quests / enforce running the harder ones you should be OK. The big difficulty should be the consumable restrictions.
    This is a good idea for static groups but not so good for open guilds. For one, it overly complicates a rule system. For two, it would have to be further complicated to fairly cover group size.

    BTW, we haven't stepped from +1 shock light mace to +1 holy light hammer. We've stepped from +1 shock tough mace held by a character with +1 ogre power and hitting half the time to +1 shocking burst hammer held by a character with +3 or +4 ogre power and hitting almost every time. For those of us not twinking or using auction/brokers, this is a huge shift in character power, ease of quests, and ease of progression.
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  2. #22
    Community Member dredre9987's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    So you have no worthy ideas. Congratulations. You are the target demo. The game will be made easy enough for you to easily cap and feel heroic. Epic even.

    Sorry I have worked for everything I have including all my Epic Elite completions. You don't seem to understand. I play within the rules of the game not some made up rules by someone so they can feel god like over a group of people. If Turbine wanted perma-death in this game don't you think we would have it by now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitesco View Post
    Oh and honestly, you are all carrying portal beaters on your casters? What on earth are you using it on often enough to clog up your bag with it?
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  3. #23
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq View Post
    Most, if not everything in chests/end reward lists has a plat value.

    You could create a "Plat Value" Cap on items you can loot from the chest or choose as an end reward. Could be based on character level or whatever criteria you choose that holds to the spirit or your ruleset.

    For instance: If a chest contains a +1 Club of PG (~250 pp ?), 175 plat, 5 Heal Kits +1 and you have a Rule Imposed 300pp worth of items you can loot from the chest.

    Similar with End Reward Lists: Plat Cap on what you can choose.


    It could add an element of strategic decision making and help to moderate the monty.
    I appreciate the suggestion but its too complicated. I'm not going to ask players to keep a list of suitable loot (or loot value) next to thier computers. It also slows down play. No one wants to sort out loot at every chest (well, Losh actually does want to, but that's another story). This would become a barrier to play.
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  4. #24
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dredre9987 View Post
    Sorry I have worked for everything I have including all my Epic Elite completions. You don't seem to understand. I play within the rules of the game not some made up rules by someone so they can feel god like over a group of people. If Turbine wanted perma-death in this game don't you think we would have it by now?
    Such is the difference. For you, the game is work and therefore making it as easy as possible is a good thing. On the other hand, I want to log on every session and have my group fight to survive. I want to extend myself and my group beyond what we think is capable. It is not work, it is adventure.
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  5. #25
    Community Member dredre9987's Avatar
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    LOL try an epic elite and you will "fight to survive" All I'm trying to get across is that your mad about the loot changes because they mess up your "made up" rules.

    Now on spell damage and trap damage and trap dc's on heroic elite, I'm on your side...way too much for newer players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitesco View Post
    Oh and honestly, you are all carrying portal beaters on your casters? What on earth are you using it on often enough to clog up your bag with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Portals.

  6. #26
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    The to-hit changes must really have a big impact. With the precision feat, you could probably take your level 1 character into a level 20 quest and still hit half the time.

    DDO needed that change. Level 1 casters could always do damage on level 20 quests while melees and rangers were locked out. But I see how that major melee buff can mess up your rule system.
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  7. #27
    Community Member kafrielveddicus's Avatar
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    Very simple solution for you parvo!

    Restrict using loot to minimum level +2,3 or 4 levels higher than minimum level, anything else must be deconstructed, remove the restriction for toons level 20 and higher.

    ie. a +6 stat item has a minimum level 14, but your guild rules stat all minimum levels are 4 levels higher than listed, so the minimum level would be actually 18 for your guild, problem solved, lol, but you wont like it because it came from the infamous NARC!

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  8. #28
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNarc View Post
    Very simple solution for you parvo!

    Restrict using loot to minimum level +2,3 or 4 levels higher than minimum level, anything else must be deconstructed, remove the restriction for toons level 20 and higher.

    ie. a +6 stat item has a minimum level 14, but your guild rules stat all minimum levels are 4 levels higher than listed, so the minimum level would be actually 18 for your guild, problem solved, lol, but you wont like it because it came from the infamous NARC!

    I bid you all the best!
    Although in theory it might be a good idea, in reality telling players they can't use the loot they find in a chest while they adventure probably won't work. It's easy to ignore auction and broker, but chest loot and end rewards are another matter. It's not a bad idea just becasue you came up with it. Now...if Chai agrees with you, its defenitely a bad idea.
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  9. #29
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    Time as come for a 'little' change: FORBID shrining!?

  10. #30
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    I'm not sure you need to change any rules or avoid people using the chests. If the content is too easy with the new loot, run more difficult content. Skip ww and head straight to higher level quests. The goal is challenge, yes?

    Well, that's awesome; but at any time you feel that the game or loot is making things trivial to you, just find more difficult content. I assure you, it is out there.

    Good luck!

  11. #31

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    I understand Parvo's exasperation. Here's my own take on the situation. The recent update, and particularly the loot tables, have made the game easier YET AGAIN. To name just two changes that came before: prestige classes and the shortened durations of enemy spells on players (like hold person, dance, even blindness and curse) have made the game continually easier. Players get cool new abilities. Monsters never seem to get an upgrade.

    Now, changing the rules of a rather large guild like MV to cope with changes from an update is very tenuous business. Players in the guild think, "Rule changes? What now?" They sign on and enter the guild and level up characters while agreeing to a certain rule set. Changing the rules those characters have always run by is extremely irksome for some folks.

    I can't see any easy, and easily enforceable solutions. People want to use the loot they EARNED from at-level questing, especially those who forgo the brokers and AH. When the loot tables get this out of whack, it calls for an adjustment.

    Maybe run elite-once-and-done and limit the character level to the base quest level? It would mean the carnival series on elite with max level 5's, Xorian Cipher with max level 8's, etc. While definitely providing challenge, it would create LOGISTICS problems with players grouping. "Need a full party for that... Need a rogue, with really GOOD GEAR, for that one... etc." Even a simple rule change like that requires a lot of thought and consensus building.

    More power to ya. The Core is still comatose. I'm having too much fun running the FR content to be in touch with other aspects of the game right now.
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  12. #32
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthbadger View Post
    I'm not sure you need to change any rules or avoid people using the chests. If the content is too easy with the new loot, run more difficult content. Skip ww and head straight to higher level quests. The goal is challenge, yes?

    Well, that's awesome; but at any time you feel that the game or loot is making things trivial to you, just find more difficult content. I assure you, it is out there.

    Good luck!
    This is probably the most viable solution. Problem right now is traps. Some trap DCs are so high that well built rogues can't spot/serach/disable at level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by parvo View Post
    This is probably the most viable solution. Problem right now is traps. Some trap DCs are so high that well built rogues can't spot/serach/disable at level.
    Yes, the trap DCs do present an issue for PD rogues. Permit use of AH for rogue gear? Tools and search, spot, DD googles? Or just limit to +5 tools would likely resolve this issue.

    It would seem a shame to run trivial and nonchallenging content if the single issue preventing completion of harder content is trap dcs which could be resolved with purchase of tools---this solution may have the minimal effect on your ruleset, which I know is important to your guild.

  14. #34
    Community Member Niab's Avatar
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    Im not real sure the loot will have a great impact over the long haul.

    Sure its better than we are used to but no AH / Brokers still limits you somewhat to random drops.

    I do get the occasional exceptional item ...but have also pulled +4 dex boots from Baudry's before the update at level 2

    Higher power stuff willl still have min level restrictions and we will have to wait to use them.

    I still don't see a hugh influx of "higher level" PD characters . I think if the game was significantly easier we would see this.

    Niab......

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The game is not balanced for PD, ironman, challenging play. Those restrictive styles have ALWAYS found their challenge by changing the rules to meet their needs. Its no different this update than any other update, which also made it easier where the nich play style people have to rethink and retool.

    As far as trap DCs are concerned, they are now balanced for +5 skill ML zero goggles and +2 stat items ML 3. When we start harping about better loot, and then harp about higher DCs, we need to add 2+2 together and use that better loot when attained to nail those higher DCs. Stuff drops like rain, and from what we've seen in our static, drops at low enough level where sometimes people cant even use it yet. Ive seen disable +7 items drop with an ML of 5 in harbor quests, while running on level 3 toons.

    So yeah, youre right, its more monte haul than ever. What does this mean. It means running sharn on level 4 toons. Our static did it and hit traps on lower rolls with +5 skill gear from harbor drops on a non drow rogue. These kinds of adjustments have been made in the past for other updates. This update is no different than the last one, or the one before that.

  16. #36

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    One very simple rule change would add a ton of challenge. And it would still keep the pnp flavor that some seek in a pd guild: no prestige classes. Easy to enforce, knocks player power down noticeably, and the simplicity of it is gold.

    I know a pd guild out there will take this one and run with it soon, IF they want challenge.

    For my taste, I wouldn't mind if there were vet status level 20 builds. The new stuff is just too cool, and I have yet to play up to max level the various epic destinies. Fatesinger looks coooooool......
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  17. #37
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    Personally I'm against forbidding prestige classes since they exist in d&d and add much more customization to Heroes!

    But if you wanna update rules to make play more interesting there are many possibilities.....

  18. #38
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    Default One person's opinion

    This may or may not work for anyone but us, but the group I adventure with uses a simple method to adapt to the "Monty Haul".

    This is only an opinion as applied to ourselves.
    A character adds up the potential "factors" listed in an items info sheet and that number can not exceed the characters current level.
    If an item doesn't have a potential factor, it is considered to be a 1.

    The changes Turbine is applying to the game is for profit, we all know it and I can't really blame them. We take what is given us and try to make it into more of what we want, then try to group with the like-minded, if we can.

  19. #39
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The game is not balanced for PD, ironman, challenging play. Those restrictive styles have ALWAYS found their challenge by changing the rules to meet their needs. Its no different this update than any other update, which also made it easier where the nich play style people have to rethink and retool.

    As far as trap DCs are concerned, they are now balanced for +5 skill ML zero goggles and +2 stat items ML 3. When we start harping about better loot, and then harp about higher DCs, we need to add 2+2 together and use that better loot when attained to nail those higher DCs. Stuff drops like rain, and from what we've seen in our static, drops at low enough level where sometimes people cant even use it yet. Ive seen disable +7 items drop with an ML of 5 in harbor quests, while running on level 3 toons.

    So yeah, youre right, its more monte haul than ever. What does this mean. It means running sharn on level 4 toons. Our static did it and hit traps on lower rolls with +5 skill gear from harbor drops on a non drow rogue. These kinds of adjustments have been made in the past for other updates. This update is no different than the last one, or the one before that.
    I get what your saying. I really do. But not all easy buttons are the same. Some, like hirelings and auction house are very simple to ignore. Others, like temporary maladies, super-pre-adolescent-DM-here-have-a-holy-weapon-for-killing-a-kobold-do-you-like-me-now?-loot can not be easily ignored. I care less about the former and more about the latter.

    I think Sharn elite has DC 21 traps. That's a pretty darn high mark for level 4 characters to hit even with +5 gear. I'm not sure if your static is well rounded, but often a static group has many advantages over open guilds. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.
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    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncani_Daho View Post
    One very simple rule change would add a ton of challenge. And it would still keep the pnp flavor that some seek in a pd guild: no prestige classes. Easy to enforce, knocks player power down noticeably, and the simplicity of it is gold.

    I know a pd guild out there will take this one and run with it soon, IF they want challenge.

    For my taste, I wouldn't mind if there were vet status level 20 builds. The new stuff is just too cool, and I have yet to play up to max level the various epic destinies. Fatesinger looks coooooool......
    My fundamental aversion to easy buttons is in direct contrast to my equally fundamental belief that we should not limit character build options. It's a quandry...
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