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  1. #61
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
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    My Assassin does. All but wisdom, which she pretty much had to dump.
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  2. #62
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    I never stated since the devs first mentioned changing it which side I am on so I never called for balance( I am for feats for to hit/damage stats btw).
    If it's not a freebie, there is no need to "balance" it any further since feat/APs would be the cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Rogues aren't the only ones who can make use of UMD or diplomacy.
    No, they are not the only ones, but they benefit the most from these two. Having diplo to shed aggro is invaluable and having no blue bar but enough UMD to use weapons/wands/scrolls/items is like a new world openning for rogues. There is also bluff which is pretty much required when soloing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Of course the common forum thinking is full retard/casting and ignore the rest, but good players know better. My wizards start with 14 cha before racials so I can UMD heal/res and have a decent diplo, my Barbs have cha for UMD for emergency res, blur wands, gh scrolls, teleport scrolls, etc, and extra intimidate. My wizards skip dex due to insightful reflexes and focus on cha as much as con, Sorcs I go Cha>con/dex for the extra reflex saves. So no, casters don't have one(two) stats either but some play them that way.
    I'm sorry but you can't win using this argument.
    If you build barbs to focus on STR/CON and have some CHA that's 3 stats. (barely any benefit from spending stat points on WIS, DEX or INT)
    If you build wizards to focus on INT/CON and have some CHA that's 3 stats. (barely any benefit for spending stat points on STR, DEX, WIS)
    If you build Sorcs to focus on CHA/CON and have some DEX that's 3 stats. (barely any benefit from spending stat points on STR, WIS, INT)

    Now, going by your logic, if you build rogues to focus on STR/CON and have some CHA, INT, DEX that's 5 stats. (because, paraphrasing your previous words, we don't like min/maxing, we like utility)
    If you build rogues to focus on DEX/CON (or DEX/INT) to have some CHA, INT (or CON) that's 4 stats. (same as above, with the note that you dump STR here but as you said earlier "one symbol of weakness and you are done")

    Not to mention that almost all rogues dump WIS cause there are almost no randomly placed traps in the game and you can have enough Spot with gear and GH to locate tem. Now, imagine it changing and somehow rogues need at least small investement in ALL stats if you don't have the gear to dump WIS, CHA completely. That's absurd in comparison to your examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    There is a difference between saying you need some investment in a stat (4-6 build points, a tome, wear an item) and saying you are focusing in it. Everyone should aim for 20+ in all stats, but you will aim for 50+ in your main 1-2 stats. With the proposed feat(s), Rogues would only focus on Dex/Intel, with Acrobats going more con over intel.
    And that would be different from casters/barbs doing the same now how, exactly...?
    Rangers - DEX(focus), CON and a few points in WIS
    Monks - DEX(f), WIS(f) and CON
    Bards - DEX(f), CHA(f), CON, maybe a few in INT

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Show me an Assassin or Mechanic build with the feats who has str/wis/con/cha within 20 points of their dex/intel.
    Lol, what you want is very easy to get exactly because rogues (especially 28pt, 32pt builds) have so many important stats. If you have high-end gear you can get away with dumping some but it still leaves you with al least samll investment in 4-5 stats. Now let's turn the tables, show me barb/sorc/wiz builds who aren't gimps and have their dumped stats within 20 points of thier primary ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Since update 14, even full retard dps chars can achieve 39 UMD for heal scrolls. A small investment in cha and 2 more intel for the extra self sufficiency UMD provides > 1-2% more dps.

    11 ranks
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    Yes, they can but you place stats points in INT and CHA, use +6 CHA skills shroud item that has +sp not +hp on it so you probably need another slot for +hp one, use yugo pot (favor grind), spider cult mask (not everyone pre-ordered MotU), not to mention it's at level 25. Suddenly, your "full retard dps" isn't full retard dps anymore.

    And to be clear, it's not like it wasn't possible before. It just got easier to get it at level 20+ when MotU came.
    Last edited by brzytki; 07-18-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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    Did Einstein solo eLoB without pots or what?
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Probably pulling it out of your arse.
    STR > DEX in all but a few weapons in RL. Don't get me wrong, DEX was/would be helpful but a score of 8/10 would be sufficient. Being nimble didn't make a great sword or maul deadly. It was the users shear STR to make the weapon go through the defender and his armor.
    How is it that Tiger Woods hits a golf ball further than Arnold Schwarzenegger?
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    How is it that Tiger Woods hits a golf ball further than Arnold Schwarzenegger?
    Is it, the loving support of his family? pish, I'm all out of ideas here.

  5. #65
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Probably pulling it out of your arse.
    STR > DEX in all but a few weapons in RL. Don't get me wrong, DEX was/would be helpful but a score of 8/10 would be sufficient. Being nimble didn't make a great sword or maul deadly. It was the users shear STR to make the weapon go through the defender and his armor.
    This is incorrect.

    Dex is the better of the two attributes in RL. Knowing the proper technique (prob wis) and being able to execute the advanced portions of that technique to generate power behind the blows delivered with the weapon (dex) are the two most important factors in RL swordsmanship. Most of that power comes from the core and not the extremities. Delivering a good sword strike is more about abdominal muscles and rotation than it is about bicepts and tricepts.

    An 8-10 dex musclebound individual would be an average swordsman. Old battlefields are littered with the remains of average swordsman, who were put there by people with better technique and execution.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is incorrect.

    Dex is the better of the two attributes in RL. Knowing the proper technique (prob wis) and being able to execute the advanced portions of that technique to generate power behind the blows delivered with the weapon (dex) are the two most important factors in RL swordsmanship. Most of that power comes from the core and not the extremities. Delivering a good sword strike is more about abdominal muscles and rotation than it is about bicepts and tricepts.

    An 8-10 dex musclebound individual would be an average swordsman. Old battlefields are littered with the remains of average swordsman, who were put there by people with better technique and execution.
    Proper technique comes from studying and training(int).

    Today, combat technique is about suppressing fire (cha) to keep people hiding behind covers and Blowing up their covers with grenades or bombs(usually int)

    Old battlefields are littered with armies that got massacred by better weapons(int), better strategies(wis) or better numbers(cha).

    If you want to kill a heavily armored knight with a sword, you will need some serious STR.

    DEX only gets to shine on sporting events, where you score points for touching and everyone is assumed to be using a light saber.
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  7. #67
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    Proper technique comes from studying and training(int).
    Wis, not int. Its more of committing specific actions into muscle memory, similar to walking, or riding a bike. These dont take high int to learn or do, they take alot of repetition to commit to muscle memory so the action is automatic and doesnt need to be thought about before being initiated.

    When you walk for example, you dont even actively think about it. You just do it from muscle memory. Even people with the lowest int can learn to walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    Today, combat technique is about suppressing fire (cha) to keep people hiding behind covers and Blowing up their covers with grenades or bombs(usually int)

    Old battlefields are littered with armies that got massacred by better weapons(int), better strategies(wis) or better numbers(cha).
    I would put the strategy as int, the crafting of those weapons as int and wis, and the execution and modification of said strategy as wis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    If you want to kill a heavily armored knight with a sword, you will need some serious STR.
    Incorrect. One of the myths commonly perpetuated is that people pierced or slashed THROUGH the armor with swords, which is false. Most kills of heavily armored knights are piercing and slashing the weakpoints of the armor where the metal plates meet up either near a joint, or the neck. This takes alot more technique, speed and timing than it takes strength.

    For instance, archers that shot directly at knights are ineffective at maintaining a high kill per arrow used ratio. Archers were more effective when the army was still charging toward their position, because they could shoot in an arc where the arrow is pointing down, which will kill more advancing knights due to some scoring hits between the gorget and neck, and some piercing the light chain where the joints are.

    The Japanese also faced warriors with metal armor a few times during their history. Most of their warriors were small by todays standards, and while well toned but they did not have body builder-esque physiques. They favored technique and speed over brute force. While they were limited in body shots due to chest plates being in place, katana could still take off arms and legs at the elbow and knee respectively. The japanese won most of those battles btw, and did not need hulking brute strength to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    DEX only gets to shine on sporting events, where you score points for touching and everyone is assumed to be using a light saber.
    No. Even the european armies abandoned heavy plate eventually and went to leather and studded leather once they figured out that an army that could move faster and react faster was more advantageous than metal encased soldiers who moved slowly. There have been quite a few battles won in history which were merely a contest of who could make it to the better ground first. The more mobile army won those battles. The army whose men and horses were less tired from marching won those battles.

    Had they done their research back in the 70s before cranking out their first game, they would have used dex for to hit for EVERY WEAPON, and str for damage mod on everyweapon save for maybe crossbows. High str is an advantage if everything else is equal. If its a choice between dex or str in real life, the dex will translate into physical prowess which will take brute force to school when both are trained with the proper techniques.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Had they done their research back in the 70s before cranking out their first game, they would have used dex for to hit for EVERY WEAPON, and str for damage mod on everyweapon save for maybe crossbows. .
    Actually, this slighty contradicts your earlier points about the importance of dex (to strike the correct vital areas) and wis (which I believe you were equating to muscle memory?).

    Again, using the Tiger Woods vs Arnold anology - a significant percentage of Woods increased "damage" to the golf ball over Arnold would be due to dex/wis considerations (and "golf club" weapon prof, focus, and specialization feats, and kensai III in golf club)

    Now, if you compare Tiger Woods to Mike Weir, two guys with similar proficiencies/feats/enhancements and dex/wis modifiers, you might point out that Tiger's physique (STR) is at least partly why he can drive the ball further than Mike.

    So damage should be some sort of weird combination of STR/WIS/DEX, the formula perhaps changing slightly for each different weapon (GURPS anyone?).
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  9. #69
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion at all.

    DEX already drives AC, reflex saves, some useful skills, and to hit for ranged weapons. At the cost of a feat, it also can be used to drive your chances of hitting with certain melee weapons.

    That single stat already affects more gameplay mechanics than any other. There are also many ways to boost your STR score in the game, so that if you want to keep it low to medium when you start, a respectable final score still attainable.

    The cost of improving other stats to a modest level, rather than maxing out just one or two is fairly low. On a human 32 point build you can start with two scores of 14 and two of 16. The difference between a 14 or 16 and an 18 in starting stat does not actually have a huge impact on your character's uppermost potential.

    If you are asking for this because concerned about your rogue not doing enough damage, then there is either an issue with what you think you should be able to do, not playing well to make the most of your sneak attacks, or a build problem.

    The amount of damage available against unfortified (ie, the vast majority of) targets from a rogue is massive. Good feat and gear choices make it possible to deal with fortified opponents too.

    Thanks.
    And at the end of the day, many people feel that low-Str, high-Dex builds aren't nearly as useful as low-Dex, high Str- builds. For one, you can hit most of the same benchmarks for Reflex saves even with a lowish Dex, and many of the characters that would want to focus on Dex will also have Improved Evasion as a safety net in those situations anyway.

    Very few characters use range weapons with any sort of regularity. Even fewer do so that would also be concerned with Dex-to-damage for melee weapons.

    A difference of 5-10 points on balance is rarely, if ever, going to be relevant if you otherwise have been investing in it, and Tumble is (currently) almost entirely worthless after you've spent 1 or 2 ranks in it. Hide and Move Silently can be pushed into the 90s on a Str-based rogue, and fairly easily at that.

    That leaves AC. Under the new system, a difference of 5 points of Dex is going to probably translate to a difference of 1-2% miss chance from AC. A difference of 10 points of Dex (assuming that you are still fitting all that extra Dex into relevant armor) will likely translate to a difference of 2-4% miss chance.

    That's not insignificant, but hardly strong enough to warrant Dex-based characters being barred from getting to use Dex for damage, especially since, in order to do so, they have to spend at least one feat on getting there, and possibly will have to invest AP or a second feat as well, and then are still also limited to a smaller group of weapons, that don't include the khopesh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    It'll make rapier using dex rogue/shadow dancers higher DPS than str ones using khopeshes, that just feels wrong. It's not as bad as casters being able to use con as their casting stat but it's not far off.
    Not a chance. Aside from the fact that the khopesh is increasing your DPS per point of ability score (and outside bonuses) faster than the rapier is, you also have more sources for increasing Str than you do Dex for the most part. If you go Dex-based race on a rogue, you can get +7 Dex vs. +1 Str (human), +2 Str (half-elf), +4 Str (half-orc), but then add Rage +2, Madstone Rage +2 (sometimes +4), 3-piece Abishai +3 for another +7, or Primal Scream +5 for a total of +10 (doesn't stack with Rage). Now you're looking at +7 Dex vs. as much as +14 Str. You can invest in Dex in Shadowdancer, but then you're giving up other stuff. Even if you invest fully in the Dex line, you still end up at +13 Dex vs. +14 Str on a half-orc.

    At best, the two end up with basically even ability scores, giving the Dex build +6 on Reflex, skills and AC, while the Str build is still ahead on DPS, thanks to the khopesh's better profile (and higher weapon die). We'll say you broke even on feats, since the Str build picked up EWP: Khopesh instead of Weapon Finesse.
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  10. #70
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    How is it that Tiger Woods hits a golf ball further than Arnold Schwarzenegger?
    Because golf clubs are designed to magnify momentum and torque (rotation), and technique to enhance that design yields better results than putting more force into the swing. Str still matters, but far less than Int, Wis and Dex in this case.

    Alsonote how few pro-golfers appear to be be really ripped. Heck, many of the top pros have been in their 50s and 60s, who are quite likely physically weaker than their younger counterparts. Their experience and technique play more of a role than their physical might.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Probably pulling it out of your arse.
    STR > DEX in all but a few weapons in RL. Don't get me wrong, DEX was/would be helpful but a score of 8/10 would be sufficient. Being nimble didn't make a great sword or maul deadly. It was the users shear STR to make the weapon go through the defender and his armor.
    LOL so not true. One could probably search youtube to find a few examples of actually skilled two handed sword dueling. And the katana which is probably the best melee weapon ever invented makes use of strength as well as dex. If anything the proper balance now that we have PRR would be to remove the to hit bonus from strength and make dex a universal to hit bonus with no feat needing to be spent on weapon finesse. Thus strength helps hurt those with more PRR while those with hand eye coordination better overcome those nimble dextrous sorts.

    Keep in mind in many PnP books feats and PRC exist to allow better use of other stats. The iaijutsu master PRC of the OH for example made use of dex on a katana(bastard sword for stats) could use it one or two handed that way, and could gain their CHR mod to each dmg die of their iaijutsu skill focus check which could be pretty substantial. Other OH PRC gave wisdom as a to hit and dmg, And the infamous arcane monk from a caster splat book used STR for its caster stat. So dont think stats and their main benefit was so cut and dried in D&D D20 rules.

  12. #72
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    On a side note when I was 12 and taking judo/jujitsu at a dojo we where honored by the grand daughter of the schools founder coming to visit. She was an old woman in her 70s or so. She in an open spar with the 5 instructors coming at her from my school rapidly put them down in a series of moves nearly impossible to follow.

    This was certainly a case of Int,Wis, and Dex being the keys to skillful combat when unarmed. IMO STR should be a nearly trivial score to a monk in DDO. Or one they can fuel more easily with some kind of ki expenditure perhaps a 1D2 per character lvl with a scaling cost of 5 ki per die. this would let all monks dump str at the gate but summon it up when needed. I frankly tend to feel ki doesnt have enough use on my monk and often am sitting on a surplus of it no matter how fast I spam my ki attacks.

  13. #73
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Actually, this slighty contradicts your earlier points about the importance of dex (to strike the correct vital areas) and wis (which I believe you were equating to muscle memory?).
    Theres no contradiction there whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Again, using the Tiger Woods vs Arnold anology - a significant percentage of Woods increased "damage" to the golf ball over Arnold would be due to dex/wis considerations (and "golf club" weapon prof, focus, and specialization feats, and kensai III in golf club)
    Yes, absolutely, which is why there is no contradiction in my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Now, if you compare Tiger Woods to Mike Weir, two guys with similar proficiencies/feats/enhancements and dex/wis modifiers, you might point out that Tiger's physique (STR) is at least partly why he can drive the ball further than Mike.
    Like I posted: Str is an advantage when everything else is equal, but given a CHOICE between str or dex in real life, dex is the stat that would make someone a better combatant.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    So damage should be some sort of weird combination of STR/WIS/DEX, the formula perhaps changing slightly for each different weapon (GURPS anyone?).
    Damage MOD would be str after all else is considered. (except for weapons like crossbows where all the power generated is mechanical)
    To-hit would be dex.

    Level cap would be wis. Just like a wizard can cast a level of spell = int-10 (so a wiz with a 14 int = no level 5 or above spells). If someone is unable to retain what was taught and make it an automatic action rather than something they need to think about, they wont even turn out as an average combatant, because the training doesnt sink in.

    If combat abilities had the same kind of "levels" as wiz spells did, this would be capped by wis more than likely. Int allows people to understand the mechanics behind it, and wis is more of the automatic muscle memory aspect of it. I dont have to actively think to walk, I just do it. At one point in time around 2 years of age I did have to actively think to do it until it got the point where repetition and muscle memory took over. Same with learning combat.

    I might be able to teach someone with a mediocre ability a single broadsword form with rainbow movements and such. In medeival times they would make a decent soldier. Once they got that down however, if I tried to teach them double broadsword they likely wouldnt get it to sink in for a long time.

    This is right when the hilarity ensued for me, because I had double broadsword form down fairly well. I hadnt mastered it, but I showed significant progress in a smaller amount of time. Then our teacher decided to show us a section of the double daggers form. I thought "gee if I got double broadsword down pat pretty well, 2 lighter weapons should be no prob right?" LOL no. Trying to use 2 daggers with the precision required for these techniques required alot more mental stamina than I had at the time. Most teachers teach that form as an open handed mantis form first, so that when peoples arms are colliding in the momentum swing portions of it (showing they are doing it wrong) they arent stabbing themselves through the wrists, which is a mistake people only made once in medieval times, heh.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-26-2012 at 03:08 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #74
    Community Member Dexxaan's Avatar
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    IMO - DEX is extremely important for precision weapons, Initiative Based Combat and mainly Targeted Combat.

    Very difficult and "Dumb" to implement if the above mentioned are not involved and even moreso if Armor type and Weapon Type (Even Weapon Material). (i.e. A Titanium Epee Has a Better Chance of Penetrating Chitin Armor than a Standard metal One.)

    Having said that:


    GURPS is the single best approach to Melee, Ranged and Unarmed combat.


    No game (or Combat system) has even distracted me from DDO. But if Steve Jackson Games EVER implements a GURPS Point System, Game Mechanics & Character Building Online MMO...... I'm so gone.

    (Many will pray that GURPS does go Online...)

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    Community Member BrianTheHun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexxaan View Post
    IMO -


    No game (or Combat system) has even distracted me from DDO. But if Steve Jackson Games EVER implements a GURPS Point System, Game Mechanics & Character Building Online MMO...... I'm so gone.

    (Many will pray that GURPS does go Online...)

    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Not a chance. Aside from the fact that the khopesh is increasing your DPS per point of ability score (and outside bonuses) faster than the rapier is, you also have more sources for increasing Str than you do Dex for the most part. If you go Dex-based race on a rogue, you can get +7 Dex vs. +1 Str (human), +2 Str (half-elf), +4 Str (half-orc), but then add Rage +2, Madstone Rage +2 (sometimes +4), 3-piece Abishai +3 for another +7, or Primal Scream +5 for a total of +10 (doesn't stack with Rage). Now you're looking at +7 Dex vs. as much as +14 Str. You can invest in Dex in Shadowdancer, but then you're giving up other stuff. Even if you invest fully in the Dex line, you still end up at +13 Dex vs. +14 Str on a half-orc.

    At best, the two end up with basically even ability scores, giving the Dex build +6 on Reflex, skills and AC, while the Str build is still ahead on DPS, thanks to the khopesh's better profile (and higher weapon die). We'll say you broke even on feats, since the Str build picked up EWP: Khopesh instead of Weapon Finesse.
    A lot will come down to build and playstyle, I don't think it's as clear cut as you wish to make it. The 3% double strike helps things like manslayer, assassins vorpal, disint/lightning/etc. procs more than the better crit profile of most khopeshes.

    As for the dex vs str, it's also a bit more complex than your breakdown. An orc starting with 20 Str will have issues fitting in ISA, even Rogann dropped his back to I think 18 base so he could more easily fit it in and humans aren't likely to start with 17-18 str either. 20 str, 17 dex(+4 tome for ISA), 14 con, 9(?) int, 8 wis, 8 cha would be the way for the maxxxxx str rogue, that stretchs stats a bit thin and leaves int so low you're probably better off with fury/dread where you can probably get 1-3 more str. Totally different build.

    Madstone boots are a lot more useful now than previously, but having to swap them out, click defensive fighting then get my scrolls out mid combat is still too much of a deal breaker to me personally. I really should get them out of the bank and play with them a bit though, they're more situationally useful than ever now. Do you wear then full time, if so how are you getting abi set with them?

    Abi set is another thing I'm on the fence about, I have it but some of the shinies from U16/15 are making me reconsider. Once I know what the U16 gear is like at EE levels I might make the switch.
    Last edited by Ayseifn; 10-27-2012 at 01:03 AM.

  17. #77
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    My point was just that the Str rogue is going to be ahead on DPS if built to do that.

    In any case, Dex to damage may put a focused rogue slightly ahead of the Str one that spreads stats to also bump Dex, but then you're introducing other concerns anyway. And if 3% double-strike is really better than the khopesh bonus...the Str-rogue can easily swap to scimitars to gain that bonus.

    Heck, the Str-based rogue could pass on Khopesh, take that 3%, skip Improved Sneak Attack and instead grab Overwhelming Critical, which is more DPS than ISA is offering. Or they could find room for some other heroic feat, invest in enough Dex for ISA AND get OC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    My point was just that the Str rogue is going to be ahead on DPS if built to do that.

    In any case, Dex to damage may put a focused rogue slightly ahead of the Str one that spreads stats to also bump Dex, but then you're introducing other concerns anyway. And if 3% double-strike is really better than the khopesh bonus...the Str-rogue can easily swap to scimitars to gain that bonus.

    Heck, the Str-based rogue could pass on Khopesh, take that 3%, skip Improved Sneak Attack and instead grab Overwhelming Critical, which is more DPS than ISA is offering. Or they could find room for some other heroic feat, invest in enough Dex for ISA AND get OC.
    Scims are not finessable, so you can't get that 3% double strike with them.

    All I'm trying to say I guess is that things are really close DPS wise and I'm wary of the khpoesh feat being made more useless than the DA or BS feat, for rogues.

    As for taking ISA and OC, depending on the cost of dex to damage it might be better to go dex based for both of those, espescially if you're dropping the khopesh feat.

  19. #79
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Scims are not finessable, so you can't get that 3% double strike with them.
    I meant rapiers.
    All I'm trying to say I guess is that things are really close DPS wise and I'm wary of the khpoesh feat being made more useless than the DA or BS feat, for rogues.

    As for taking ISA and OC, depending on the cost of dex to damage it might be better to go dex based for both of those, espescially if you're dropping the khopesh feat.
    You need a 23 Str for OC, which is going to make going Dex-based difficult, and certainly going to make going heavily Dex-based basically impossible.

    Also, a chunk of this argument is predicated on the rogue going Shadowdancer, but they may want to go with Dreadnought (especially if they are Str-based), or Fury, which tilts things even more in favor of the Str-based khopesh wielder.

    I don't see anything wrong with the khopesh being a non-automatic choice for one, maybe two classes (rogues, and I presume rangers will get Dex to damage, but maybe not). Dwarven axes are pretty decent for rogues, actually, if you're a dwarf and not a finesse build.

    Yes, EWP is a feat, and should be worth a feat slot...but so is Weapon Finesse. Which one of those is actually worth spending a feat on? I have no problem with Weapon Finesse becoming equal to, or slightly better than EWP: K...with some specific AP invested in addition to spending the feat. Khopeshes aren't sacred objects that should be elevated above all other options, which they basically are, at present. Giving them some competition isn't a bad thing. Right now, rogues who don't use khopeshes are basically setting out having accepted the fact that they are going to be dealing suboptimal DPS. Not way less than they could be, but definitely less. If they are also Dex-based, it is going to be a lot less damage.

    So far, the only significant point against Dex to damage is that it may eclipse the strength of EWP, depending on the build, while giving characters higher bonuses in some secondary and tertiary abilities...at the cost of a feat (a wash) and an investment of AP. That doesn't sound unreasonable. If we were looking at this being available to all characters, then it might be a problem, but as it stands, it really doesn't look to be.

    That said, I think the ability should be far enough into Assassin that you won't be picking it up with a 2-level splash. I think 6 Rogue is about the right spot, but it could wait until 9 also, as that's around where monsters start getting enough HP that you'd notice not having a real modifier to your damage besides Sneak Attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Mentioning "up to +6 dex" is pointless. 12 ap on a measly 6 dex is silly and simply missing out on a lot of things.
    This right here.

    DEX is still at this point not worth as much, period. One day maybe.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

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