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  1. #1
    Community Member BrianTheHun's Avatar
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    Default Using dex for damage

    After some debate, the Shadowdancer autogrant of using dexterity for damage modifier was shelved. I believe that a dev said it would be making it into the game as an Heroic feat or enhancement. If possible, may we please get an ETA on when that might be? Will it be in the next patch or two, or during the enhancement pass?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianTheHun View Post
    After some debate, the Shadowdancer autogrant of using dexterity for damage modifier was shelved. I believe that a dev said it would be making it into the game as an Heroic feat or enhancement. If possible, may we please get an ETA on when that might be? Will it be in the next patch or two, or during the enhancement pass?
    Enhancement pass.

  3. #3
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    i don't think we have anything specific promised, but i would also expect the enhancement pass. no point in making an enhancement for it sooner when you'll just have to change it in a month, nor does it make sense to have to come back just after you finished changing everything in the enhancement path.

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    Community Member BrianTheHun's Avatar
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    Yeah, the enhancement pass would be my guess as well. I was a bit disappointed to see it changed from the Shadowdancer destiny, but it will still be nice when it arrives.
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    Founder TreknaQudane's Avatar
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    If you get DEX for damage, I want STR for AC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    If you get DEX for damage, I want STR for AC.
    Are you okay with CHA for damage?

    I assume its fair that a Barbarian can stack just STR and CON, or a Wizard can stack just INT and CON and be fully capable builds, a Sorcerer needs CHA and CON, but a Rogue needs STR and DEX and INT and CON. Even if they can add DEX to damage they still need 3 Stats.

    And at the end of the day the Rogue will still do less damage.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Are you okay with CHA for damage?

    I assume its fair that a Barbarian can stack just STR and CON, or a Wizard can stack just INT and CON and be fully capable builds, a Sorcerer needs CHA and CON, but a Rogue needs STR and DEX and INT and CON. Even if they can add DEX to damage they still need 3 Stats.

    And at the end of the day the Rogue will still do less damage.
    Yes, TWF khopesh rogues are notoriously bad at dealing damage...

    Edit: You want to boost rogues but it would just benefit fighters more than rogues. They have more feats to spare and less stats to worry about. The same applies to monks, to a lesser extent. You'll be envious all the same. If you want to be a fighter, roll a fighter.
    Last edited by stoerm; 07-11-2012 at 06:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    If you get DEX for damage, I want STR for AC.
    If you had to deviate yours stats between hit n dmg you'd be singing a different tune.

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    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    If you get DEX for damage, I want STR for AC.
    Dont be so dramatic. Dex for dmg wont be OP.

    1. Dex to dmg will be probably usable only with finesable weapons - so u wont be able to use sos, khopeshes, some axes - that are considered best weapons right now.
    2. Str is easier to boost. Rage. madstone rage etc. boost up str. Theres no :clicky: or :spell: boost for dex. Not to add barbarians rage and fighters power surge. Also rams might spell.... the only boost to dex I know comes from rogue pre - acrobat. And it consumes haste boost use.


    And true - I feel like this wil be big for rogues and monks, cause right now they need 4 stats. Thats a lot.

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    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    Theres no :clicky: or :spell: boost for dex. Not to add barbarians rage and fighters power surge. Also rams might spell.... the only boost to dex I know comes from rogue pre - acrobat. And it consumes haste boost use.
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    Community Member Quetzacoala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    And true - I feel like this wil be big for rogues and monks, cause right now they need 4 stats. Thats a lot.
    Don't forget paladins, they require four stats as well.
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    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzacoala View Post
    Don't forget paladins, they require four stats as well.
    Um. Really? I mean - I mostly meet paladins who need max str, max con and some cha. So 3.
    I can hardly see twf paladins around.
    But true - if paladin is TWF he needs 4

    But I didnt even mention that cause finesse paladins... well - I never heard of one. So dmg from dex would be a boom for them I think.

  13. #13
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Why make this part of the enhancements?

    Just add it to the weapon finesse feat. That would be the logical and easy way to implement it.

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    Hi,

    Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion at all.

    DEX already drives AC, reflex saves, some useful skills, and to hit for ranged weapons. At the cost of a feat, it also can be used to drive your chances of hitting with certain melee weapons.

    That single stat already affects more gameplay mechanics than any other. There are also many ways to boost your STR score in the game, so that if you want to keep it low to medium when you start, a respectable final score still attainable.

    The cost of improving other stats to a modest level, rather than maxing out just one or two is fairly low. On a human 32 point build you can start with two scores of 14 and two of 16. The difference between a 14 or 16 and an 18 in starting stat does not actually have a huge impact on your character's uppermost potential.

    If you are asking for this because concerned about your rogue not doing enough damage, then there is either an issue with what you think you should be able to do, not playing well to make the most of your sneak attacks, or a build problem.

    The amount of damage available against unfortified (ie, the vast majority of) targets from a rogue is massive. Good feat and gear choices make it possible to deal with fortified opponents too.

    Thanks.
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    Community Member BrianTheHun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion at all.

    DEX already drives AC, reflex saves, some useful skills, and to hit for ranged weapons. At the cost of a feat, it also can be used to drive your chances of hitting with certain melee weapons.

    That single stat already affects more gameplay mechanics than any other. There are also many ways to boost your STR score in the game, so that if you want to keep it low to medium when you start, a respectable final score still attainable.

    The cost of improving other stats to a modest level, rather than maxing out just one or two is fairly low. On a human 32 point build you can start with two scores of 14 and two of 16. The difference between a 14 or 16 and an 18 in starting stat does not actually have a huge impact on your character's uppermost potential.

    If you are asking for this because concerned about your rogue not doing enough damage, then there is either an issue with what you think you should be able to do, not playing well to make the most of your sneak attacks, or a build problem.

    The amount of damage available against unfortified (ie, the vast majority of) targets from a rogue is massive. Good feat and gear choices make it possible to deal with fortified opponents too.

    Thanks.
    First of all, it isn't a suggestion. It was originally intended to be an autogrant for the Shadowdancer destiny. After some discussion, it was removed and slated to become either an Heroic feat or an enhancement to someone with the Weapon Finesse feat. I agree that this is appropriate for finessable weapons only, so that it doesn't become abused by khopesh users and others looking for a workaround to take advantage of it.

    I agree with your views on stat distribution. An 18 (or 20 for racial adjustment) doesn't make much difference from 16.

    As far as not doing enough damage, I assure you that that is not an issue. Although I am a dex-build, I certainly didn't neglect strength, and I deal out some great DPS and I have some very top-notch gear. I am simply looking to enjoy using dex as a damage modifier as opposed to str, as suggested by the dev team.
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    I'm still on the fence about this being a good move or not, but if it has to happen it should either work with everything including khopeshes or only light weapons + staves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion at all.

    DEX already drives AC, reflex saves, some useful skills, and to hit for ranged weapons. At the cost of a feat, it also can be used to drive your chances of hitting with certain melee weapons.

    That single stat already affects more gameplay mechanics than any other. There are also many ways to boost your STR score in the game, so that if you want to keep it low to medium when you start, a respectable final score still attainable.

    The cost of improving other stats to a modest level, rather than maxing out just one or two is fairly low. On a human 32 point build you can start with two scores of 14 and two of 16. The difference between a 14 or 16 and an 18 in starting stat does not actually have a huge impact on your character's uppermost potential.

    If you are asking for this because concerned about your rogue not doing enough damage, then there is either an issue with what you think you should be able to do, not playing well to make the most of your sneak attacks, or a build problem.

    The amount of damage available against unfortified (ie, the vast majority of) targets from a rogue is massive. Good feat and gear choices make it possible to deal with fortified opponents too.

    Thanks.
    LOL youd have a point if DEX was also not a go to dump stat in this game. even with the new ac/PRR changes DEX was indirectly nerfed because now its better to be lower AC with higher PRR then the other way around. Some untouchable dex/wis monk builds got utterly crippled with the changes while full wowtard barbarians and the like got some extra padding for not a bit of cost to their dps.

    All one has to do is look over the many forum threads on how DPS rogues only need a bare min on dex to do ALL traps and other rogue things, while trying to be as big and strong as barbs. If your not after a given feat with a min dex req then dex gets dumped.

    If it was equal to con, and how it impacts characters, then you wouldnt see endless threads on how caster needs max casting stat and the rest in con etc.

    Finesse fighters have been drawing the short straw on quality named items, and balance in general since day one of DDO and the era of the Dwarf Named Bob image the game took on back then and still bears to this day when spoken of on gamer forums.

    If one nerfed dex hardly any mainstream DDo players would bat an eyelash, put a hard cap on str and con scores, or how many HP you can have or how much bonus dmg you can deal with your weapon and just about every hard core full ****** build would be here on the forums in mass with torches and pitchforks.

    Keep in mind all the above I mention exist in various PnP rule books. Imagine if the Max DMG cap rule was added, so all the great sword users out there would lose all benefits for any dmg bonus above what a 34 strength would give.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Imagine if the Max DMG cap rule was added, so all the great sword users out there would lose all benefits for any dmg bonus above what a 34 strength would give.
    There was a real easy way for Gary and Dave to equalize the entire equation back in the mid 70s when mulling over what stat was going to mod which skills. Ive seen it in other RPGs since then. Its pretty simple.

    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.

    I have quite a bit of martial arts experience myself. Ive seen 5'3" tall 130LB chinese guys train with 40 pound guan dao pole arms and do some amazing things with them. Using a large weapon effectively has less to do with str, and more to do with dex and technique. People use the term "finesse weapon". All effective weapons are finesse weapons. If these builds people roll with 90 str and 8 dex translated to real life, the person would likely kill themselves trying to use a large edged weapon.

  19. #19
    Community Member Bodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There was a real easy way for Gary and Dave to equalize the entire equation back in the mid 70s when mulling over what stat was going to mod which skills. Ive seen it in other RPGs since then. Its pretty simple.

    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.

    I have quite a bit of martial arts experience myself. Ive seen 5'3" tall 130LB chinese guys train with 40 pound guan dao pole arms and do some amazing things with them. Using a large weapon effectively has less to do with str, and more to do with dex and technique. People use the term "finesse weapon". All effective weapons are finesse weapons. If these builds people roll with 90 str and 8 dex translated to real life, the person would likely kill themselves trying to use a large edged weapon.
    Bad Chai bringing in RL.

    I would be happy with the Auto grant to SD applying towards those with the existing feat of Weapons finesse it is limited to light weapons.

    I also want to see the rogues light weapon value go up. In a PnP scenario I would have the duel khopesh wielding halfing rogue cutting his/her own head off on the first 1 he/she rolls.

  20. #20
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.
    I think all the games I've ever played worked like this. Except, of course, D&D. :P

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