Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 88
  1. #41
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    My experience may differ from yours, but last time I looked, dex rogues were mostly a gimped flavor build, and the really good ones could manage to make it look mediocre at best. You had the odd thief acrobat that could make it work, but rogues in general tried to get by with as low a dex score as possible, while still maintaining access to gtwf. In fact, dex was so bad that the barrier to gtwf was deliberately lowered to 17, so people did not have to feel sorry for wasting points in it so much.

    I'd welcome any changes that make pure strength less desirable, but maybe some concession could be made. Maybe reword the finesse feat to "you get to use your dex instead of str for attack rolls and half of it for damage rolls on all normal attacks. On attacks that would count as sneak attacks, you may use your full dex modifier instead."
    That's how things were but there's a lot to take in from U14. 21 dex is now the min dex to shoot for and is either a hefty cost in build points or cutting into your str levelups, gone are the days of 18 base + all level ups which I don't really have a problem with. 6 build points for 1 str mod has always been kinda meh on a class with so much utility.

    The best bonus from pumping str pre update IMO was that it worked on mobs with fortification, but that's become much less of an issue with all the good ways to bypass fort. Precision is now a feat I'd take over PA on any rogue, 25% fort reduction is huge and if I understand correctly the +5% happens after everything else is calculated. SD gets 15% fort bypass and at tier 6 vorpal attacks remove SA immunity for a short time, you can take a tier 4 twist for another 10%, use armour piercing items for +10-15%, mournlode/blasting chime for +20% undead/constructs, and of course opportunist for another +10%. Fort is no longer a hard counter, and if you choose to invest heavily into it can be made pretty trivial.

    Rogues are also getting +12d6+3 SA damage, maybe more maybe less as I'm unsure how things will stack once all the bugs get squashed. That pushes them up to around 29d6+28(129.5 avg dmg), more for halflings and more those with rogue past lives. This makes the +5-15 str mod(7-21 dmg) difference much less noticeable, roughly a less than 6% DPS loss on a well geared rogue as long as you hit on a 2.

    You can also have a higher sustainable Dex than str now, but since we don't know the new mob AC values and I'm not sure if SA procing on grazes is WAI it's impossible to tell how much of a factor this is.

  2. #42
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    50+ dex is sustainable now too, and the big thing from shadow dancer in favor of dexers is not only the up to +6 dex but the +3 profane bonus to double strike with finesse weapons.
    Mentioning "up to +6 dex" is pointless. 12 ap on a measly 6 dex is silly and simply missing out on a lot of things.

  3. #43
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorzian View Post
    I'm all for it. finesse rogues are just... fun. being able to contribute more in the dps would be a nice bonus though i never did understand the max dps rogue idea. too much = aggro. aggro means no SA. no SA means pitiful dps no matter what rogue build you are.
    Thats assuming you have a gimp tank. Seriously if a tank cant hold aggro off of a rogue he should re-roll.

  4. #44
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    If you think this will make rogues "only need two" stats you probably build really dependent and one-trick rogues. Maybe you could step back from your preliminary indignation and look at what people are saying to you and take the time to process it rather than just spewing un-checked rhetoric to defend a flawed and underinformed argument.
    Ahhh yes. The "one trick pony" discussion. As the only other thing "two stat rogues" dont really focus on is assassinate. I dont see how having a chance to make trash go down faster makes one more then a "one trick pony".

  5. #45
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodasch View Post
    If you think this will make rogues "only need two" stats you probably build really dependent and one-trick rogues. Maybe you could step back from your preliminary indignation and look at what people are saying to you and take the time to process it rather than just spewing un-checked rhetoric to defend a flawed and underinformed argument.
    Outside of Dex and Intell, what else would they need to focus on? And you need to factor in this would need to be balanced for all classes especially chars who need lighter armor, Monk, Ranger, and Bard would all benefit from it. You can't use Con because Con is a stat everyone needs to have a medium focus in.

  6. #46
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    21 dex is now the min dex to shoot for and is either a hefty cost in build points or cutting into your str levelups.
    I dont really see that as an issue. I only lost 2 str.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    you can take a tier 4 twist for another 10%
    Mentioning this is absurd...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    You can also have a higher sustainable Dex than str now
    lol wut.

  7. #47
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Outside of Dex and Intell, what else would they need to focus on? And you need to factor in this would need to be balanced for all classes especially chars who need lighter armor, Monk, Ranger, and Bard would all benefit from it. You can't use Con because Con is a stat everyone needs to have a medium focus in.
    I would have said Str and Con but the point is legitimate either way.

  8. #48
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogann View Post
    Mentioning "up to +6 dex" is pointless. 12 ap on a measly 6 dex is silly and simply missing out on a lot of things.
    I don't really like the Oncoming Darkness chain so that's an easy 2-3, 4 if I push it. But yeah, should have put a qualifier on that.
    I dont really see that as an issue. I only lost 2 str.
    I didn't start with 18 base str but did start with 14 dex, so losing more than bracket if I want my other stats the same.
    Mentioning this is absurd...
    Why? 4/2/1 twist split seems reasonable to me.
    lol wut.
    Depends on what you call sustainable I guess, I don't count bloodrage, titans grip, double madstone type effects.

  9. #49
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.
    I think all the games I've ever played worked like this. Except, of course, D&D. :P

  10. #50
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Warsaw
    Posts
    749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Outside of Dex and Intell, what else would they need to focus on? And you need to factor in this would need to be balanced for all classes especially chars who need lighter armor, Monk, Ranger, and Bard would all benefit from it. You can't use Con because Con is a stat everyone needs to have a medium focus in.
    If i can't use CON in the argument because everyone needs it that makes your point absurd when you call for balance as casters/barbs only need one stat then. So w/o a DEX mod to damage rogues would have 3 stats to care about. That's assuming you have enough +UMD gear to dump CHA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    It'll make rapier using dex rogue/shadow dancers higher DPS than str ones using khopeshes, that just feels wrong.
    For me what feels wrong is every single TWF character, that hadn't crafted other types of weapons before, is using khopeshes. Be it fighter, ranger, pally, rogue, barbs, bards (to lesser extent), with the obvious exception of DEX-based rogues and monks. So what if it makes rapiers a go-to weapon for one class (or rather one PrE)? Khopeshes are a go-to weapon for all classes already.
    Last edited by brzytki; 07-17-2012 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Did Einstein solo eLoB without pots or what?
    Guild: Captain's Crew
    Characters: Kyorli , Xunrae , Halisstra , Nyarly

  11. #51
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    DEX to damage for free would be too much.

    DEX to damage for a cost would not be. The cost is the balance.



    This is like that prostitute joke. There are a lot of people here clamoring about right/wrong but in reality it's about negotiating the price. At no point was it suggested that anyone should get DEX to damage for free with any weapon, in addition to DEX to hit. Finesse is already weak. AP building off of Finesse or further improvement to the feat itself would be the cost.



    For those who don't recall the history it worked kinda like this.


    - EDs were released
    - Shadowdancer had an option to use DEX to damage for finesse weapons as part of the tree, but late blooming
    - Fatesinger had an option to use CHA to hit and damage for ANY FREAKING WEAPON
    - People were looking at the shadowdancer option and wondering if they'd have to build for STR until level 23 or 24 or whenever they got the unlock until they could actually use DEX
    - The Devs circled after looking at things and decided that DEX to damage was something they wanted to work in as an option (not a free gimme) in heroic levels, and that they needed to balance the EDs a bit more as DEX to damage on some weapons for a melee ED versus CHA to hit and damage on all weapons for an arcane ED was not really balanced across the EDs, so they made some changes and pushed things back to the enhancement pass
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #52
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,472

    Default

    If you are LARPing, then Strength wins every time.

    If you are using real swords, or in this case virtual damaging swords, then Dex SHOULD be a factor. A flick of the wrist and an attack is thwarted with another a counter slash is made without so much as the whole arm moving in broad strokes. This is dexterity, this is damage.

    Of course, I could just be pulling this out of my arse from some Firefly episode I watched

  13. #53
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,675

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    DEX to damage for a cost would not be. The cost is the balance.
    Even if DEX for damage would cost nothing it'd still cost a feat (weapon finesse), because otherwise you'd miss everything, seeing how you probably dumped STR to get DEX higher than STR.

  14. #54
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    If you are LARPing, then Strength wins every time.

    If you are using real swords, or in this case virtual damaging swords, then Dex SHOULD be a factor. A flick of the wrist and an attack is thwarted with another a counter slash is made without so much as the whole arm moving in broad strokes. This is dexterity, this is damage.

    Of course, I could just be pulling this out of my arse from some Firefly episode I watched
    Probably pulling it out of your arse.
    STR > DEX in all but a few weapons in RL. Don't get me wrong, DEX was/would be helpful but a score of 8/10 would be sufficient. Being nimble didn't make a great sword or maul deadly. It was the users shear STR to make the weapon go through the defender and his armor.

  15. #55
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Angels and Insects
    Posts
    932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Outside of Dex and Intell, what else would they need to focus on? And you need to factor in this would need to be balanced for all classes especially chars who need lighter armor, Monk, Ranger, and Bard would all benefit from it. You can't use Con because Con is a stat everyone needs to have a medium focus in.
    You can't just exclude Con as a focus using your supposed qualifier, because you do still have to focus on it. Calling a sorc or wiz a "two stat focus class" is viable since they only really need con and casting stat, but calling a rogue one, then excluding con with the excuse "everyone needs it" is disingenuous.

    To answer your first question: It depends on if you want to be able to solo or not in epics and higher end content. If all you want to do is join groups and disarm their traps and stab things while relying on healers and tanks and all that stuff, sure you can ignore everything but int, dex, and con (still three stats, despite your attempt to erase con from consideration). If you want to be a well rounded rogue who can solo pretty well without having to sacrifice too many of your feats to junk like skill focus, or your AP's on "improved skills", then you need a few points in Charisma (for UMD, Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy), some in Intelligence (Assassinate, Trap skills, skill points), Some in Dex (to hit, AC, reflex saves, damage, sneak, balance), Some in Con (HP, Fort saves), Some in Str (prevention of helplessness, prevention of reduced mobility from str loss, ability to carry all your weapons, potions, scrolls, wands, etc without whining about encumbrance). That's 5 stats that shouldn't be "dumped" at the very least, and 3-4 that should be high to medium focus in build points.

    For bards, you have much the same spread, with higher priority on Charisma since it's their Casting stat, maybe a little less focus on int.

    For monks, add Wisdom, subtract int.

    For rangers, not much different than rogues, you can get enough wis on a ranger with +6 to +8 stat gear without putting a single point into it. Rangers might actually have the best argument for "two stat" class of the ones you listed.

    The problem here is that you guys talk about group reliant rogues who just do dps, traps, and occasional UMD like that's the pinnacle of roguedom, and want to act like there is no better and no need for better. Your definition of "good" and mine are different...My definition requires the builds to meet additional requirements (maybe it's because my main is a caster and I like making all my characters as close to the versatility and self reliance of my arcanes and divines as possible).

    So all those people who claim classes like rogue are "two stat" classes, then claim melees can't solo or that melees aren't versatile, or whatever...well, they're being pretty ridiculous and self-defeating.

    It takes more engagement of brain cells to build your character through actual build than it does to just pour it all into two stats and pile on so much overpowered cookie cutter gear that you can "get by" in groups by sustaining the illusion your build is awesome, but it's not, your gear is awesome and your build is mediocre, and maybe your actual play skill is awesome to compensate for your build's weakness, but don't pretend your build couldn't be better in multiple areas if you'd stopped the myopic focus on how big the numbers pouring out of your weapon swings were for long enough to focus on shoring up the weaknesses of your build so it's actually viable for soloing things other than Claw.
    Last edited by IWIronheart; 07-18-2012 at 07:28 AM.
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  16. #56
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Angels and Insects
    Posts
    932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    If i can't use CON in the argument because everyone needs it that makes your point absurd when you call for balance as casters/barbs only need one stat then. So w/o a DEX mod to damage rogues would have 3 stats to care about. That's assuming you have enough +UMD gear to dump CHA.



    For me what feels wrong is every single TWF character, that hadn't crafted other types of weapons before, is using khopeshes. Be it fighter, ranger, pally, rogue, barbs, bards (to lesser extent), with the obvious exception of DEX-based rogues and monks. So what if it makes rapiers a go-to weapon for one class (or rather one PrE)? Khopeshes are a go-to weapon for all classes already.
    Exactly. +1
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  17. #57
    Community Member Rodasch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Between Angels and Insects
    Posts
    932

    Default

    By the way, in answer to the people who will try to squash any argument for focusing on other stats with "oh well you can ignore that" or "that matters so little in x or y", the truth is, using that logic, you can claim that EVERY class only needs to focus on ONE (or even NO) stat, period. There is always a way around a stat weakness, but it will cost you in versatility and self-reliance.

    An argument could be made for No one needing to focus on Con, since it's not a single class's primary stat and you can get "enough" Con through stat gear and +hp gear and toughness feats to get by, but how many of you think dumping con is a great idea on your builds?

    The problem is the definition of the word "need". See, you can play this entire game, every single encounter, every difficulty level, and win/succeed with the absolute "worst" build in the game, even gear naked, if you're carried by a strong group. So if your definition of a "good" build is one that can do that, your standards are pretty low.

    To me, what a class "needs" is based on what shores up their individual weaknesses, and makes them "need" other people in the group less...see, the reason you need a group is to support your weaknesses versus the content so that you can make your strengths shine....and those things they support...those weaknesses...those are what your class NEEDS....everything else is what you LIKE, WANT, or what optimizes your strengths...not a need.

    So when most of you talk of "needing" a stat, you're using the wrong words for what you're trying to say...you should be using the words "only needs two stats to optimize their kill count", which is not the same as "only needs two stats, period"
    Ghallanda Server: Rodasch - Pale Master, Niccolina - Assassin, Mahlak - Radiant Servant, Etayn - Monster, Brikbaht - Tukaw, Khawstik - Pale Master
    Quote Originally Posted by kuroi-koibito View Post
    I didn't have the heart to tell him he looked like a fat guy in a Godzilla suit.

  18. #58
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    For me what feels wrong is every single TWF character, that hadn't crafted other types of weapons before, is using khopeshes. Be it fighter, ranger, pally, rogue, barbs, bards (to lesser extent), with the obvious exception of DEX-based rogues and monks. So what if it makes rapiers a go-to weapon for one class (or rather one PrE)? Khopeshes are a go-to weapon for all classes already.
    Every TWF I know has TWF, ITWF, GTWF and, with the exception of some monks Imp Crit. To me khopesh is just another DPS feat like those but of much less significance.

    Rapiers are pretty even with khopeshes now for rogues with Shadow Training IV, the main reason I brought up the khopesh is to show how powerful rapiers are right now.

  19. #59
    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Why? 4/2/1 twist split seems reasonable to me.
    Thats assuming you wanna farm out 18 twists of fate. For a total of 54 levels in ED's.

    IMO for an average gamer doing a teir 3 and teir 1 is reachable(only 8 twists of fate). Twisting "Reign"(teir 3) and "More action Boosts"(teir 1).

    If your wondering what "Reign" is, its a Fatesinger twist that adds 11d20 sonic and lightning dmg on a confirmed vorpal(arguably one of the best teir 3 twists imo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Depends on what you call sustainable I guess, I don't count bloodrage, titans grip, double madstone type effects.
    Even w/o counting thoughs str will always win.
    Last edited by Rogann; 07-18-2012 at 01:41 AM.

  20. #60
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,724

    Default

    I never stated since the devs first mentioned changing it which side I am on so I never called for balance( I am for feats for to hit/damage stats btw).

    Everything you said about cha/str/con is true for ALL characters. People who don't invest getting str/cha to at least 20 are bad players, even casters. One symbol of weakness and they are useless. All chars need con, it works the same for everyone except added bonus for concentration checks and ki. All chars benefit from having a moderate investment in cha. Rogues aren't the only ones who can make use of UMD or diplomacy. Of course the common forum thinking is full retard/casting and ignore the rest, but good players know better. My wizards start with 14 cha before racials so I can UMD heal/res and have a decent diplo, my Barbs have cha for UMD for emergency res, blur wands, gh scrolls, teleport scrolls, etc, and extra intimidate. My wizards skip dex due to insightful reflexes and focus on cha as much as con, Sorcs I go Cha>con/dex for the extra reflex saves. So no, casters don't have one(two) stats either but some play them that way.

    There is a difference between saying you need some investment in a stat (4-6 build points, a tome, wear an item) and saying you are focusing in it. Everyone should aim for 20+ in all stats, but you will aim for 50+ in your main 1-2 stats. With the proposed feat(s), Rogues would only focus on Dex/Intel, with Acrobats going more con over intel. Show me an Assassin or Mechanic build with the feats who has str/wis/con/cha within 20 points of their dex/intel.

    Since update 14, even full retard dps chars can achieve 39 UMD for heal scrolls. A small investment in cha and 2 more intel for the extra self sufficiency UMD provides > 1-2% more dps.

    11 ranks
    5 epic levels
    4 gh
    2 luck
    6 shroud
    7 cha(12 +2tome +2 ship +2 yugo +6item)
    3 spare hand
    1 spider cult mask
    39

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload