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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    No, it won't. STR can be buffed up to 50+ SUSTAINABLE and 70+ short tem buffed while dex doesn't come even close to that number.

    Shadowdancer doesn't even come into play because the STR one can pick that up too, same buffs to both.

    Also, why would that feel wrong? Where is it written that STR rog MUST be better dps than DEX?
    50+ dex is sustainable now too, and the big thing from shadow dancer in favor of dexers is not only the up to +6 dex but the +3 profane bonus to double strike with finesse weapons. Str khopesh users don't get either of those.

    It feels wrong because not only will a dex/rapier user have more dps, they'll have the possibility of a higher sustainable to-hit, better AC, better ref save, more build points to funnel into for int/con, higher DC on executioners strike while applying on crit effects more often.

    Rather than be a choice it's becoming a no brainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    A Shadowdancer's Stat bonus is Dex/Int. Point Management may be an issue here, but the +6 Dex is not completely irrelevant.
    Also the 3 enhancements from rogue and better synergy for GTWF(17 base dex) and ISA(21 base dex) mean that starting with max dex and putting all level ups there a lot easier to accomplish than for a str rogue. Starting with 18 str and adding all levelups just seems silly now but doing the same for dex seem fine.

    Fake edit: Sure 10 APs for 3 dex is stupid expensive but you could fit 1-2 dex with a little effort.

  2. #22
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    It feels wrong because not only will a dex/rapier user have more dps, they'll have the possibility of a higher sustainable to-hit, better AC, better ref save, more build points to funnel into for int/con, higher DC on executioners strike while applying on crit effects more often.
    .
    Apparently you don't have a AC based toon. Dex AC is very hard to increase to the lvl of wearing armor now. You basically have to throw all build points into dex to obtain where another character will achieve by putting on some armor.

    this isn't a bad change and it's been badly needed for those finesse builds. If you disagree, go lvl one first and you will see the damage output in 30-50 vs your fighter doing 150-300 per hit in heroic. This wont make up that gap but give those builds some respect in groups that people won't comment oh your a finesse build... you really should switch to khopesh/str build.
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  3. #23
    Community Member grayham's Avatar
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    Not that any of characters rely heavily on DEX, but I would welcome this change. my barb has it easy by only really looking after 2 stats and making sure that the other 4 stay respectable for saves/SF pots. I feel for Monks/rogues with the impossible job of maintaining 4 or 5.

  4. #24
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    I'd rather see all characters need more than two stats than more only need two.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Thorzian's Avatar
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    I'm all for it. finesse rogues are just... fun. being able to contribute more in the dps would be a nice bonus though i never did understand the max dps rogue idea. too much = aggro. aggro means no SA. no SA means pitiful dps no matter what rogue build you are.
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    We should make our feedback as honest as possible so that when it is absolutely ignored by Turbine we will get bonus points on the scoreboard of life.

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    I'd rather see all characters need more than two stats than more only need two.
    Counter-attack guard while in CE = dex mod, perhaps? Closest analogue I can think of that'd fit the presently implemented systems and move a bit closer to outcomes in the SRD.
    Last edited by Scraap; 07-16-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry, but I don't agree with this suggestion at all.

    DEX already drives AC, reflex saves, some useful skills, and to hit for ranged weapons. At the cost of a feat, it also can be used to drive your chances of hitting with certain melee weapons.

    That single stat already affects more gameplay mechanics than any other. There are also many ways to boost your STR score in the game, so that if you want to keep it low to medium when you start, a respectable final score still attainable.

    The cost of improving other stats to a modest level, rather than maxing out just one or two is fairly low. On a human 32 point build you can start with two scores of 14 and two of 16. The difference between a 14 or 16 and an 18 in starting stat does not actually have a huge impact on your character's uppermost potential.

    If you are asking for this because concerned about your rogue not doing enough damage, then there is either an issue with what you think you should be able to do, not playing well to make the most of your sneak attacks, or a build problem.

    The amount of damage available against unfortified (ie, the vast majority of) targets from a rogue is massive. Good feat and gear choices make it possible to deal with fortified opponents too.

    Thanks.
    LOL youd have a point if DEX was also not a go to dump stat in this game. even with the new ac/PRR changes DEX was indirectly nerfed because now its better to be lower AC with higher PRR then the other way around. Some untouchable dex/wis monk builds got utterly crippled with the changes while full wowtard barbarians and the like got some extra padding for not a bit of cost to their dps.

    All one has to do is look over the many forum threads on how DPS rogues only need a bare min on dex to do ALL traps and other rogue things, while trying to be as big and strong as barbs. If your not after a given feat with a min dex req then dex gets dumped.

    If it was equal to con, and how it impacts characters, then you wouldnt see endless threads on how caster needs max casting stat and the rest in con etc.

    Finesse fighters have been drawing the short straw on quality named items, and balance in general since day one of DDO and the era of the Dwarf Named Bob image the game took on back then and still bears to this day when spoken of on gamer forums.

    If one nerfed dex hardly any mainstream DDo players would bat an eyelash, put a hard cap on str and con scores, or how many HP you can have or how much bonus dmg you can deal with your weapon and just about every hard core full retard build would be here on the forums in mass with torches and pitchforks.

    Keep in mind all the above I mention exist in various PnP rule books. Imagine if the Max DMG cap rule was added, so all the great sword users out there would lose all benefits for any dmg bonus above what a 34 strength would give.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorzian View Post
    I'm all for it. finesse rogues are just... fun. being able to contribute more in the dps would be a nice bonus though i never did understand the max dps rogue idea. too much = aggro. aggro means no SA. no SA means pitiful dps no matter what rogue build you are.
    PFF real rogues have tricks to get SA even when surrounded. Deception, invisibility guard( didnt you know during that short burst of improved invis you auto sneak attack, lest that got nerfed finally), Blindness weapons, and stat drainers can all bring anything but red names down asap. And in a one on one with a big bos, the right tools, and they dont last long, and a well made rogue is a Batman when it comes to surviving over powered beings he should have no chance against.

  9. #29
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    Rogues get a shiny toy? Unfair!!! Seriously, currently they spend a feat for finesse, and then are are gimp forever. When the rework hits, it will require ANOTHER feat or a significant investment of AP. How many 3.5 games more or less require a rogue to be str based? This will be just fine, as I have said in other threads before, ddo needs more options, not less. Maybe the change will compel some rogues to, I don't know, actually use rogue weapons like rapiers or short swords? The general consensus on live is that kopesh is king and anything Turbine can do to break the problem of all melee toons seemingly geared/leveled same-y-ness, I am all for. Maybe halflings will actually be played for something other than flavor now.

    Don't sound the alarms, for the tidings of doom have been greatly exaggerated. Change is coming and flavor of the month builds will not be king forever, as their ephemeral nature is their namesake. This game is transient, and this change doesn't negatively effect anyone, but fixes a design problem that has been quite obvious for years. Finesse builds are broken, and I give homage to the Turbine in their attempts to right this grave wrong. Halflings are the master race after all, and people should have a reason to roll one up, other than swag?

  10. #30
    Community Member Quetzacoala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    And true - I feel like this wil be big for rogues and monks, cause right now they need 4 stats. Thats a lot.
    Don't forget paladins, they require four stats as well.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    Apparently you don't have a AC based toon. Dex AC is very hard to increase to the lvl of wearing armor now. You basically have to throw all build points into dex to obtain where another character will achieve by putting on some armor.

    this isn't a bad change and it's been badly needed for those finesse builds. If you disagree, go lvl one first and you will see the damage output in 30-50 vs your fighter doing 150-300 per hit in heroic. This wont make up that gap but give those builds some respect in groups that people won't comment oh your a finesse build... you really should switch to khopesh/str build.
    I do have an AC based toon, defender paladin in heavy armour. Before the AC changes I gave some serious thought to going full dex as with the right debuffs I could get it to relevent levels even against mobs like eLoB. But with the chage it seems better to go for 90% or so of max potential AC and put the rest into PRR/self healing/DPS/whatever as the 10% diference is negligable.

    As to leveling a finesse rogue, yeah it sucks atm, but giving finesse only weapons carte blanche access to dex mod damage is overpowering at cap. Which is why I suggested making it only work for light weaps and quarter staves, or heck even just simple weapons would work. Dex mod to damage is coming I just don't want it to be overpowered and take away viable build choices, a rapier using str rogue can already out DPS a khopesh user because of what the shadodancer ED provides. They don't need a further buff that'd allow them to dump str and possible gain even more DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorzian View Post
    I'm all for it. finesse rogues are just... fun. being able to contribute more in the dps would be a nice bonus though i never did understand the max dps rogue idea. too much = aggro. aggro means no SA. no SA means pitiful dps no matter what rogue build you are.
    Finesse rogues are in pretty good shape now at cap, and depending how this shakes out they could be max DPS.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    Finesse rogues are in pretty good shape now at cap, and depending how this shakes out they could be max DPS.
    My experience may differ from yours, but last time I looked, dex rogues were mostly a gimped flavor build, and the really good ones could manage to make it look mediocre at best. You had the odd thief acrobat that could make it work, but rogues in general tried to get by with as low a dex score as possible, while still maintaining access to gtwf. In fact, dex was so bad that the barrier to gtwf was deliberately lowered to 17, so people did not have to feel sorry for wasting points in it so much.

    I'd welcome any changes that make pure strength less desirable, but maybe some concession could be made. Maybe reword the finesse feat to "you get to use your dex instead of str for attack rolls and half of it for damage rolls on all normal attacks. On attacks that would count as sneak attacks, you may use your full dex modifier instead."

  13. #33
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Dex builds left the building alot longer ago than this last update. Theres a few reasons why. Among others:

    1. Monte haul game - allows stacking of bonuses to gain a decent enough reflex save with gear rather than needing to boost dex over str.

    2. The ability to stack str past 100 where dex barely got to 50 previous to this update. This allowed getting "respectable" stats in other abilities while still getting huge str totals.

    3. Tomes counting toward feat qualifiers making it easy to min max.

    4. Lowering the qualifier from 19 to 17 for GTWF, making it even easier to min max.

    5. Other PNP mechanics missing from the MMO version (touch AC, initiative rolls, tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity while moving, etc...) - lack of critical uses equates to devalued stat. If fighters and barbarians were taking attack of opportunity damage each time they moved through mobs threat range, and were getting hit by more ray spells/touch spells etc, people would see the value of dex more than they do now. If they always attacked last due to low initiative mod on top of that, well....
    Last edited by Chai; 07-16-2012 at 02:06 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #34
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    5. Other PNP mechanics missing from the MMO version (touch AC, initiative rolls, tumbling to avoid attacks of opportunity while moving, etc...) - lack of critical uses equates to devalued stat. If fighters and barbarians were taking attack of opportunity damage each time they moved through mobs threat range, and were getting hit by more ray spells/touch spells etc, people would see the value of dex more than they do now. If they always attacked last due to low initiative mod on top of that, well....
    That's the big one for me after I stopped for a while and gave it some thought. Between that, and the cleave mechanics taking a page from whirlwind, it's basically totally inverted the role of focused two handers and spread two weapon fighters for stats and feats you'd take. Pretty significant in a game where you're typically outnumbered at least (2-3+):1 if you're attempting to go along at a decent clip. (And no for the love of Lolth, that is *not* me calling for a cleave nerf, so put down the greataxe. Just a recognition of the consequences of the sum of the house rules en-toto.)
    Last edited by Scraap; 07-16-2012 at 02:19 PM.

  15. #35
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzacoala View Post
    Don't forget paladins, they require four stats as well.
    Um. Really? I mean - I mostly meet paladins who need max str, max con and some cha. So 3.
    I can hardly see twf paladins around.
    But true - if paladin is TWF he needs 4

    But I didnt even mention that cause finesse paladins... well - I never heard of one. So dmg from dex would be a boom for them I think.

  16. #36
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Imagine if the Max DMG cap rule was added, so all the great sword users out there would lose all benefits for any dmg bonus above what a 34 strength would give.
    There was a real easy way for Gary and Dave to equalize the entire equation back in the mid 70s when mulling over what stat was going to mod which skills. Ive seen it in other RPGs since then. Its pretty simple.

    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.

    I have quite a bit of martial arts experience myself. Ive seen 5'3" tall 130LB chinese guys train with 40 pound guan dao pole arms and do some amazing things with them. Using a large weapon effectively has less to do with str, and more to do with dex and technique. People use the term "finesse weapon". All effective weapons are finesse weapons. If these builds people roll with 90 str and 8 dex translated to real life, the person would likely kill themselves trying to use a large edged weapon.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #37
    Community Member Bodic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There was a real easy way for Gary and Dave to equalize the entire equation back in the mid 70s when mulling over what stat was going to mod which skills. Ive seen it in other RPGs since then. Its pretty simple.

    Dex = to hit mod. Str = damage mod. For ALL WEAPONS.

    I have quite a bit of martial arts experience myself. Ive seen 5'3" tall 130LB chinese guys train with 40 pound guan dao pole arms and do some amazing things with them. Using a large weapon effectively has less to do with str, and more to do with dex and technique. People use the term "finesse weapon". All effective weapons are finesse weapons. If these builds people roll with 90 str and 8 dex translated to real life, the person would likely kill themselves trying to use a large edged weapon.
    Bad Chai bringing in RL.

    I would be happy with the Auto grant to SD applying towards those with the existing feat of Weapons finesse it is limited to light weapons.

    I also want to see the rogues light weapon value go up. In a PnP scenario I would have the duel khopesh wielding halfing rogue cutting his/her own head off on the first 1 he/she rolls.

  18. #38
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    Default dex damage

    I think allowing a player to use Dex modifier for damage would be worth the cost of a feat.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayseifn View Post
    It'll make rapier using dex rogue/shadow dancers higher DPS than str ones using khopeshes, that just feels wrong. It's not as bad as casters being able to use con as their casting stat but it's not far off.
    You do know Khopeshes arent supose to be as good as they are dont you they are inflated over their pnp stats. I was against the dex damage idea at first until I sat down and looked at it really hard and its a good and fair idea if it costs a feat.

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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreknaQudane View Post
    I'd rather see all characters need more than two stats than more only need two.
    If you think this will make rogues "only need two" stats you probably build really dependent and one-trick rogues. Maybe you could step back from your preliminary indignation and look at what people are saying to you and take the time to process it rather than just spewing un-checked rhetoric to defend a flawed and underinformed argument.
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