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  1. #41
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuryam View Post
    The currently prevalent DDO play style seems to be to run up to the enemies and ‘out-dps’ the opponents in a massive way. Opponents usually don’t last more than a few seconds. Many can barely get off one spell or swing before going down. Buffs laid down beforehand and healing afterwards negate most of the weak attempts that the opponents make at the characters’ lives. A crowd control build makes sure that not too many opponents engage the players at once. So, what do you need? Lots of DPS, enough healing to keep them up and one buffer and crowd controller. Focused builds provide the most chance of actually filling the role you seek, so those are wanted more and more as the stakes get higher.
    Except what happens when you don't have a healer or a CC caster?

    My mutt (12/6/2 fighter/ranger/monk) has PUGed many many times (in the new epic content too) with max-DPS barbarians or fighters who end up dying without a dedicated healer. The ones from the elite guilds usually bring a hireling along if we don't have one, or they chug silver flame pots, so they don't die a lot, but if they get knocked down for a second while surrounded, it's usually "Ding! Dead melee."

    Me, I probably only do 70% of their DPS, but I NEVER die. I'm the one who always saves the party from the wipe.

    Now, who do the elites want when they are doing a epic elite raid and they have the healers and casters in the group? The focused max-DPS barbs of course, and for good reason... they ARE more effective than my mutt in those roles.

    But I enjoy being able to do any quest any time without problems. Some quests go easier with a ranged attack. I can do it with 6 levels of ranger and manyshot... More quests go better with a solid melee attack... I have it with 12 fighter levels, good weapons, and Haste Boost IV. I don't kill as quick as the max-DPS crowd, but I don't get hurt as quick either.

    High AC, High Dodge, evasion, self-healing, UMD, decent ranged attack, decent melee attack.

    All this is more useful in many quests and PUGs than max-DPS melee attack only builds.

    Although again, in a static group or guild-only runs where every role is available, six highly focused builds will perform much better than 6 "generalist" builds. But a "generalist" build will do much better in most PUGs, and has the advantage of not having to wait for a healer or a caster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #42
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    One last thing...

    There's a point of diminishing returns in most things... This game is fairly easy. In most big fights, bringing 70% of max DPS to the fight is usually plenty to win the fight without depleting the party's SP or other resources.

    Bringing 100% max DPS is not necessary to win. The quest may go faster, but groups rarely fail because the DPS wasn't absolutely maxed out.

    For example: if Harry dies before the blades come in, does it really matter if he dies 15 seconds before the blades come in, or 5 seconds before they come in? The extra DPS is nice, but there is a point where the extra DPS gets you less and less benefit.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 08-02-2012 at 09:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #43
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Versatile, which is usually easily done with a two levels in rogue, maxed out UMD, decent saves and various immunity item (kundrak delving boots, silver flame nugget, etc).
    But I always make sure to be good at at least one thing.
    Self sufficient, but useful in raids too. Raids is really only when I've ever needed to be focused.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  4. #44
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    I do both! I have pure builds with a focus and I have builds that can do everything under the sun. But I should note that even my focused builds have something beyond their focus. Practically every character in the game has a little wiggle room to add in at least one secondary specialty and most have enough to be masters of more than just one aspect.

  5. #45
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    With the addition of some Epic Destinies, I would argue that Focused and Versatile are not mutually exclusive.

    I have a Rogue that is extremely focused on DPS, has an Assassinate DC of 52, and 55+ spot/unlock & 60+ on search/disable...oh yeah, also Scroll heals and has to saise someone from the dead on a hauntingly regular basis.
    His ED buffed all his skills, and gave him ddoor, making him very versatile, while maintaing laser like focus.

    On the flip side, I also play a Rogue/Monk/Fighter multiclass, and at level 20 he has great DPS, whips Scrolls with ease, knocks out EH traps/chests with no problem, and has great saves (Dwarf). (Just started Grand Master of Flowers and got the +1.5[W] enhancement)

    I can tell you irrefutably, that the multiclass was more versatile while leveling, and the pure Assassin was better at DPS. After level 20 though, with the ED's, they are converging on equality, but with considerably different play styles.

  6. #46
    Community Member Nuryam's Avatar
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    Interesting points about the ED's. I haven't dipped much into them yet. Only a couple of tier 1's.

    I do expand my character planning to level 25 and full ED/twists these days. But with most TR's around level 12 that will take a while still.

  7. #47
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    I enjoy playing both types of characters. My main is a pure cleric who is a focused healer/offensive caster, though the diversity of divine spells allows him to melee from time to time (especially if I switch him to Unyielding Sentinel). However my alts include a pure bard (fer hagglin'), a pure monk which doesn't get much play, a pure rogue, a wizard with a rogue splash, a cleric with a rogue splash, and a ftr/rog/wiz who can do just about everything. And I am thinking about TRing my main into a clonk. So I like focused builds because they seem the most fun to play in groups with other focused builds, but I also have some really versatile self-sufficient builds which I play mostly as solo.

  8. #48
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    Wizards

    Most versatile

    Kill everything, heal yourself, unlock most locks.

    DONE

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Wizards

    Most versatile

    Kill everything, heal yourself, unlock most locks.

    DONE
    Wizards are quite versatile (especially PM), and if you are struggling with this question then playing a specialist that is inherently versatile may be right for you (Palemaster, Sorc with UMD, Artificer, FvS, Monk, splash melee).

    I think a good guideline would be, on a scale of 1-10 don't settle for less than 8 in focus and don't settle for less that 5 in versatility. If you can't solo every quest on elite, not a big deal. If you can't solo at all, that's a problem. If you aren't useful in a high level raid on hard or elite that's also a problem.

  10. #50
    Community Member Chaoscheerio's Avatar
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    Versatility all the way. I can definitely see how extreme focus can really help a party or a raid, but it's just not a style for me - I hate it when I run into something that I just can't do for the life of me. Most of my characters strive to fulfill multiple roles in raids or parties, with the exception of my Paladin who's currently pure DPS.
    Since my playing mostly consists of levelling, whether that be a TR or a first life, not being self sufficient or not being to beat traps really hinders my experience so I prefer to be able to do both.

    ...Hence why I love my artificer.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Most of my characters end up being really flexible. The majority of them have some rogue splash, both for evasion as well as to be able to deal with traps, since I tend to solo a lot (probably 50-70% of my time), and eking out that extra 15% exp bonus, or simply being ABLE to finish certain dungeons is always a nice bonus.

    That said, my current "main" character is my artificer, who's like the best of both worlds. Pure 20th, but still nicely flexible, solid damage, and self-healing (fleshie, too, cause I can't stand how WF look).

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    And yet, on the other hand, the more I play DDO the more I realize that the multiclass experience penalties were in place for a good reason. All of these exploiter and maximum versatility builds are freakish and unnatural in the spirit of D&D.
    LOL not in the spirit of 3E+ D20 era. Ever bother to look at any NPC listed in most source books, all are made fairly using the rules even elminster. Its the rule rather then the exception in the D20 system to have at least 4 or more core classes and at least 2 or more PRC splashed into by 20, go higher and so does the splashing.

    Its actually quite restricted and lame how we only have a 3 class limit in DDo, it makes a being like elminster not even be allowed to actually exist.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inouk View Post
    Wizards are quite versatile (especially PM), and if you are struggling with this question then playing a specialist that is inherently versatile may be right for you (Palemaster, Sorc with UMD, Artificer, FvS, Monk, splash melee).

    I think a good guideline would be, on a scale of 1-10 don't settle for less than 8 in focus and don't settle for less that 5 in versatility. If you can't solo every quest on elite, not a big deal. If you can't solo at all, that's a problem. If you aren't useful in a high level raid on hard or elite that's also a problem.
    not an issue at all since its long been known maybe only 5% of a given server pop even bothers with raid content beyond a run or two to check them out or get lucky with the odd loot drop. Raiders are so far from the standard its not even funny and using Elite dif is a poor standard since very few waste time with even hard runs, especially on epic content. Current design is clearly favoring the grind out a number of widgets systems more and more to appease the main pop of players who could care less about raids.

  14. #54
    Community Member licho's Avatar
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    I. Funny thing but i dont even think of my toons in categories of versality vs focus.
    Its more like: flavor! + benchmarks.
    Where flavor is simply what what i want to play, like good old 2h barbarian or rogue warchanter or bearded dwarf with Dax and board.
    And benchmarks is what i expect from my toons:
    - being able to kill stuff
    - being able to survive stuff
    - being able solohire as much elities as possible

    II. Tease: If there exist extreme focus does there is also extreme versality?
    I suppose that there is a point where you are so spread between different aspects that you end weak in them all.
    Often you dont need to do everything, you just need do enought. Examples:
    - I dont need to have traps on all toons, but having ability to survive traps by any mean is desired.
    - I dont need to be able to heal others but being able to heal myself is desired.
    - I dont need to specialize in 3 different weapon styles, 1 is enought.
    - I dont need to have inherit buffs if i can acquire similar effect with items or other abillties.

    III. It really depends what you plan to mostly run on the toon.
    If you plan just run everything from grotto to deamonweb and TR again, then some stronger versality is more important. If somebody thinks more about few end game quests/raids of endgame then its simply wiser and more effective to build for these quests.

    IV. It really depends how much you lose for the gain.
    For example trading 2 levels of wizards for 2 rogue have some advatages and for sure increase versality, but its hard bergain, which can really hurt in end game. From the other side trading 2 levels or Ranger for 1 rogue and 1 monk is a good deal i will take anytime - trading 14 levels of ranger for whatever else sounds as even better deal.

    I suppose that what people call "i prefer versality* is more "I prefer to lose less to gain more". Which is totally correct.

    V. Some classes combine better extreme focus with extreme versality. Wizards are quite good in CC and instakills, while they still quite versalite in other fields.

  15. #55
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    I lean heavily toward versatility, but I forced myself to play one pure character- my light monk. I absolutely love her... now. I hated EVERY minute between say 13 and 20 because of her lack of trap skills, locks, and wuss UMD. At 20 tho, it all became worth it.

  16. #56
    Community Member Ushurak's Avatar
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    FOCUSED!

    I have seen some people on this thread say that DDO has changed in a way that makes versatility the way to go...not sure if I agree. They changed the "old sorc" to Savant Lines which forces you to either be min/max focused or sub-par.
    Sorcs used to strive for versatility...they would be DC specced and still bring the pain...but now they bring the pain with a radioactive vengeance but to DC spec a sorc now means your pain will be laughable when compared to a savant.

    Arti is not a good example of proving versatility. Their class design is to be versatile but it isn't due to the player choosing to make him/her versatile, it's simply what the Arti class is.

    My FS is a duel wielder (full line of TWF feats) with maxed out healing spec but I severely lost casting DC to be able to do this. He can heal with the best of them though and melee dps is good but not barbarian-rage good. This is the most versatile I would ever go. To cross class for even more versatility would mean that I lose my capstone which is really important for almost all classes along with my 10dr silver (which is far more beneficial than trying to eek out some versatility somewhere else that as of yet I haven't really needed).

    To cross-class for versatility means something really important will be lost. Maybe what will be lost is not important to that particular builder but that doesn't mean that it wasn't important it just meant that the builder thought something else would be more important for their particular flavor.

    I think that some are confusing the fact that DDO is changing the game to try to force you to be more party/group minded and less zerg/solo minded with versatility.

    I do want a group to be versatile, I want toons that can fit a specific role and perform it well.

    I don't want someone trying to pick a lock that a rogue can pick on a 12-15 under normal circumstances and it takes them a GH, Action Boost and full ship buffs so they can roll a 19 to pick it. Sure they can brag that they can pick locks...how long did I have to wait for it and will the party have everything needed to make it possible and did the player die and lose the int/dex buff needed to hit the magic number even with spell buffs. (Yes, I can actually take you to quests that have dc's this high and give you specific stories.)

    I'm not knocking anyone's splash build, I just prefer to do what I do and do it better than any other class or splash.

    Don't ask my Water Savant Sorcbot to assassinate and I won't ask your rogue to lay down max dps Ottilukes Freezing Spheres.

    BTW - I only have 1 toon with UMD which is my Arti. I haven't missed it at all. I also only play toons that can self heal though whcih accounts for most of what I have read people using UMD for.
    Last edited by Ushurak; 09-21-2012 at 08:53 AM.

  17. #57
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    nm - heh, old thread that I've already posted in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  18. #58
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    This is an extremely interesting discussion. One thing I would like to remind people about is the fact that specialization has an incremental cost. Personally I tend to favor more in the direction of specialization than versatility, but up to a point. I have gone for maximum focus on some of the lives on some of my characters and I have found that such focus carries a heavy cost. I *think* that I am currently the person who has achieved the highest possible heal amp (546%) and the highest hit points prior to the expansion (1435), even though both records were not the highest theoretical maximum. The thing is, this extreme level of specialization came at a very high cost.

    For example my heal amp build. I did have good gear and good melee past lives on the build, so it was capable of levelling up just fine, but at level 20 it started to be really poor damage, to an extent that I didn't feel like my spot in a group was warranted. By reducing my healing amp just a slight tad, down to about 350%, I was able to achieve much more damage and even more threat so that all this heal amp was actually good for something since I often had agro.

    The same goes for my life where I aimed for maximum hitpoints, I was horrible at level 20. I could not hold agro over characters that were moderately well-built and geared, so all of my hitpoints were wasted. If I managed to get agro it was also a nuisance to the group since I didn't have particularly good healing amp. Again I switched around some feats and enhancements, ended up at around 1.000 hitpoints and managed to get far better heal amp, better saves, better threat and better defensive abilities.

    The same goes for any kind of specialization in this game. You MUST specialize to properly fulfill a task in your group, you can't go around and cast offensive spells, heal, melee and buff all that the same time, everything you do requires time, there are animations that you go through when performing an action in this game, and while performing this action you are prevented from doing anything else. So naturally you must aim at making the things you do as worthwhile as possible.

    That being said, you can often gain a lot by not going "full retard" in one form of specialization. Sure you could make a build and gear setup that would achieve maximum damage, but often you would be able to gain so much from sacrificing a mere 10% of that damage to get other useful abilities, be it survivability, utility, mobility or any other -ty thing you can think of!

  19. #59
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragavon View Post
    Just curious here.

    For myself, I prefer to build characters that have focus in one area, but still have some versatility. I like to keep UMD maxxed on all characters, and prefer to have some other option for selfhealing than chugging potions. I never start a melee character with 18STR, or 20 for an orc, for example.

    The only characers where I recommend maxing out a primary stat is wizards and caster focused clerics/fvs.

    And I also love multiclassing

    What do people think? Are those last 2 stat points worth putting 6 points into STR on every melee build?
    extreme focus but only to the point where survivability is not a problem

    never dump con, take some healing amp. umd is good mkay?

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