Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 131
  1. #41
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,332

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    It's true that versatility should have a price. This is why monks and paladins aren't quite expected to have the same dps as a barbarian. But it has to be a balanced price.

    So overall the druid class is generalized and you can choose to emphasize how you want to play the class. The problem is, for example, where someone decides "I'm not that interested in the caster part of this class, I want to optimize for melee".
    So you sync all your feats into optimizing fighting as a wolf (eg. natural fighting x3) and you become quite weak as a caster. Should you have as much dps as a barb or fighter? No. But should you be weaker melee dps than a clonk? No.

    If Turbine wants to force druids to be middle-of-the-road hybrids then it shouldn't be possible to take natural fighting 3 times with such mediocre results. Either make the impact bigger or only make it possible to take the feat once but give a bigger boost (eg. 12% doublestrike for the one feat).
    Both paladins and monks have ways to make themselves more durable in return for any lost DPS, not to mention that monks have stunning fist (who needs armor when I can render my enemy helpless and pound on him?) and evasion/improved evasion. Both classes get excellent saves. What do druids sacrifice, and what do they get in return for that sacrifice?

  2. #42
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    In the great state of Confusion
    Posts
    8,540

    Default

    Turbine should add Air and Earth Elemental Forms as well as a Plant Form.

    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

  3. #43
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    7,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you give haste to a TWF toon, they'll get a hit multiplier of 1.15 * 1.8 = 2.07.
    If this was true then TWF'ing wouldn't have taken such a DPS hit in the offhand proc change.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    If you give haste to wolf form: 1.3 (base) * 1.18 (natural fighting) * 1.15 (haste) = 1.76 if its multiplicative, i n which case the result won't change whether you have haste or not. If it's additive: (1.3 + 0.15) * 1.18 = 1.711, which is even worse returns. In either case, you won't get a better multiplier than TWF in wolf form. ?
    I'm only guessing at the moment but I imagine that wolf form follows the unarmed base progression in Vanshilar's thread but with a 1.3 multiplier added.

    With 3*natural fighting, shield mastery, improved shield mastery and a 6% doublestrike item:
    This gives 102.2 base attack speed*1.3 wolf*1.35 doublestrike=179.4 attacks/minute

    For a clonk in air stance I with GTWF and a 3% doublestrike item (as you'd go for spare hand for stunning fist):
    111.3*1.83=206.5

    That's about a 15% attack speed advantage that the clonk.

    With the threat range difference alone I'd imagine that the wolf would have a DPS advantage.
    Last edited by wax_on_wax_off; 07-10-2012 at 02:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons Online, and thanks for playing!
    Build Index

  4. #44
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    If this was true then TWF'ing wouldn't have taken such a DPS hit in the offhand proc change.



    I'm only guessing at the moment but I imagine that wolf form follows the unarmed base progression in Vanshilar's thread but with a 1.3 multiplier added.

    With 3*natural fighting, shield mastery, improved shield mastery and a 6% doublestrike item:
    This gives 111.3 base attack speed*1.3 wolf*1.35 doublestrike=195.3 attacks/minute

    For a clonk in air stance I with GTWF and a 3% doublestrike item (as you'd go for spare hand for stunning fist):
    111.3*1.83=206.5

    That's about a 5% attack speed advantage that the clonk has which puts them in the same ball park. Then just have to weigh the threat range difference (not sure if it's 19-20*3 anecdote or 18-20*3 description vs 20*2), extra SA, AC and PRR from medium armour and shield etc.

    With the threat range difference alone I'd imagine that the wolf would have a DPS advantage.
    Your calculations don't differ from mine other than you including shield mastery and double strike items. It basically just confirms what I said: haste affects both types of fighting in the same way (you even have the same multiplier attack speed in your calculations). The only thing that changes is how doublestrike items increases damage in different fighting styles, (6% item adds ~4.5% in wolf form and ~3% with TWF) which is a marginal difference, honestly.

    Your numbers show that a druid needs to take five feats to be roughly equivalent with a clonk's three feats in terms of DPS. This is ignoring the fact that clonks have stunning fist. Looking at the big picture again: the fact that the DPS is even comparable is kind of the point. A wolf form druid needs more feats to have comparable DPS, has a weaker PrE, no decent SLAs, a weaker spell selection and can't even use wands and scrolls. So why should someone make a wolf form druid over a clonk?

  5. #45
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Merrimack, NH
    Posts
    7,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off
    I'm only guessing at the moment but I imagine that wolf form follows the unarmed base progression
    Animal strikes follow the One-handed melee progression (which is also the two-weapon fighting progression).
    Server - Thelanis
    Diaries of a True Reincarnate (Wizard, Sorcerer, Melee, Divine, Artificer, Druid)

  6. #46
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,709

    Default

    Does anyone have any information on the celerity enhancement? As in, cooldown timer, # charges, if it actually works etc?

  7. #47
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Does anyone have any information on the celerity enhancement? As in, cooldown timer, # charges, if it actually works etc?
    I can help with some of that.

    It has no charges and about a 5 minute cooldown timer.

    Was pretty excited by it until i got it. Its a nice boost but with a 5 minute timer ...meh. Having to take fatal harrier to get it which imo is a terrible enhancement (a haste bonus that relies on you getting killing blows quicker than the timer runs down and doesn't stack with haste spell) (ok at low level when soloing maybe???)

    How effective it is I'm not 100% sure as i've only used it on boss fights at which point i'm pretty concentrated on laying dots and self healing etc. No idea if it stacks with other double strike bonus or not.

  8. #48
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    7,870

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Your calculations don't differ from mine other than you including shield mastery and double strike items. It basically just confirms what I said: haste affects both types of fighting in the same way (you even have the same multiplier attack speed in your calculations). The only thing that changes is how doublestrike items increases damage in different fighting styles, (6% item adds ~4.5% in wolf form and ~3% with TWF) which is a marginal difference, honestly.

    Your numbers show that a druid needs to take five feats to be roughly equivalent with a clonk's three feats in terms of DPS. This is ignoring the fact that clonks have stunning fist. Looking at the big picture again: the fact that the DPS is even comparable is kind of the point. A wolf form druid needs more feats to have comparable DPS, has a weaker PrE, no decent SLAs, a weaker spell selection and can't even use wands and scrolls. So why should someone make a wolf form druid over a clonk?
    15-20*3 with IC:B=31/20 vs 21/20. Adjusted the attacks/minute according to MrCow's input which sees a 15% attack speed advantage to clonk. The critical multiplier sees a 48% advantage per hit which puts wolf form in front of clonk despite the slower attack speed. Once you consider the advantage of sword and board - say, radiance II scimitar/alchemical air/air shield - and the SA available to druid - say 3d6 helf+2d6 PrE+2d6 capstone+4d6 dire wolf - and the AC/PRR, I think I'd prefer a wolf form druid at the moment more than a clonk.

    Stunning Fist is good but there are some decent looking wolf form spells to give SA or helpless state without having to slot the gear though stunning blow still looks decent.

    Is it 4d6 SA from dire wolf? No stats on wiki, just going off memory.

    Edit: Not saying that druids are great, but I think they're better than clonks at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons Online, and thanks for playing!
    Build Index

  9. #49
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    306

    Default

    lol all i can say is that at level 7 you get the most OP ability ever. 13d6 sonic dmg aoe to every kill lol. Forget caster druids....

  10. #50
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xezno View Post
    lol all i can say is that at level 7 you get the most OP ability ever. 13d6 sonic dmg aoe to every kill lol. Forget caster druids....
    A good example of the problems druids have atm I think. Their "versatility" and overall mediocrity make them appear pretty good in cas + normal content and in low levels, where even an unmetaed firewall is a force to be reckoned with. Sadly though, they have an incredible falloff in elite, much more so epic elite because thats when other classes really start to come into their own and leave druids in the dust in their respective fields, with the druid not being able to compensate.
    Sadly, this was practically not tested in lammania, where not a single player had a decently geared/specced druid to test with, and everything was based on speculation and hearsay derived from lower level experience.
    Last edited by Ertay; 07-10-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  11. #51
    Community Member Belduroz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    66

    Default

    I've leveled a (completionist) pure druid as a caster now and yes, the class still needs some work. While it's fun to play and definitely not weak, the caster-aspect still needs to be improved. While leveling i always felt a need for more spell points, even with almost maximum possible sp (ioun stone, large guild slot, +80 sp from pls) and only made it from shrine to shrine on elite with some meleeing - this was never the case for any other arcane/divine life i've played.

    For doing reasonable dps, spells need to be spammed - the damage per spell is not so bad, but given almost every spell can be saved, most of them even with a reflex save/evasion, the final damage per second / spell point is too low. So either druids need a buff to their dcs and/or to their spell point costs, for example one damaging sla per elemental form plus a 10-20% discount on the spells of your element. Also the -3 casting levels on lightning and acid while in any elemental form is... meh, hardly reasonable and a -1 is enough.

    Druids are also lacking offensive supporting spells. Finger of death is a nice tool, but hard to get powerful enough as it's the only necromancy-/spell penetration dependant spell i use. The number of buffs is overwhelming (i'd like to see a mass death ward here). Aiming with snowslide requires some practice and neds winter wolf form, practically requiring 10 more spell points.

    In content above level 20 i feel pretty much tied to creeping cold and ice storm - finger lacks dc/spell pen, most area spells are evaded or at least saved and melee is hardly effective anymore.

    My personal progress was not that terrible as my input probably made it seem to be, but i played it as a completionist (feat inactive this life) with almost any gear and most past life supporting my caster playstyle, so i guess other people with less progress will have more trouble with the mentioned problems.

    One final note: if you have the sp, fights short enough and enough dc or mobs with bad reflex saves, nuking is really fun (crits beyond 2k ARE possible)
    Sarlona
    Belduros // Hazord // Cany // Tyor // Deyra // Yannec // Rawnah // Teyrah // Jaheyra

  12. #52
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    22,921

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    one thing i don't get
    why don't we get bonus/resistance to trip while in animal form??

    PS: it'd be so cool if the forms you can choose would differ depending on race
    imagine drow getting Spider as a form
    Well on Eberron should be scorpian

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  13. #53
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    15-20*3 with IC:B=31/20 vs 21/20.
    I'd like to point out here once again. (not personally to you but all the theory crafters out there who keep saying this)

    The description states a crit range of 18-20 (15-20 with ICB) However the actual game mechanics are a crit range of 19-20 (17-20 with ICB). This is proven and tested to be the case. Devs are aware of the discrepancy but have not said which is correct, the description or the actual working effect.

    Also dire wolf adds 2d6 sneak attack not 4d6.

  14. #54
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    SW Wheloon
    Posts
    6,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post

    Edit: Not saying that druids are great, but I think they're better than clonks at the moment.
    I think your opinion will carry more weight once you actually play a druid. Roll one up, play it, and then see if you still feel the same way.

    Until you play one yourself, arguing with people who have actually played this class seems pretty silly.

    After reading up on the class I thought it would be pretty fun to play... I have been pretty disappointed so far. It might get better when I get to the upper levels, but I'm not holding my breath.
    Last edited by Postumus; 07-10-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery
    2014 DDO Players Council
    Dandonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    5,280

    Default

    I have only played a druid to level 2 (been busy in new epics so far).

    Tried to make a bear druid. Now, it could just be me, but the attacks in bear shape seems slow to me, around 3 attacks for every four I do in the same time with s&b out of shape.

    Is it just me? Do my eyes deceive me? Have I finally lost what little remains of my sanity?
    It's definitely an N-word.

  16. #56
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    15-20*3 with IC:B=31/20 vs 21/20. Adjusted the attacks/minute according to MrCow's input which sees a 15% attack speed advantage to clonk. The critical multiplier sees a 48% advantage per hit which puts wolf form in front of clonk despite the slower attack speed. Once you consider the advantage of sword and board - say, radiance II scimitar/alchemical air/air shield - and the SA available to druid - say 3d6 helf+2d6 PrE+2d6 capstone+4d6 dire wolf - and the AC/PRR, I think I'd prefer a wolf form druid at the moment more than a clonk.
    You're comparing 6 feats for druid to 4 feats for a clonk. It really isn't surprising that a druid beats out a clonk with this investment difference. If you include 50% from stunning fist, things shift back in favor of the clonk, not to mention that if you go for the druid capstone, you're down an additional 2-4 feats compared to a clonk. With 6 feats for melee alone, you can barely fit in quicken and maximize if you go human. If you're a half elf, you can only fit in one. A clonk can fit in maximize, empower, empower healing, heighten and quicken.

    Stunning Fist is good but there are some decent looking wolf form spells to give SA or helpless state
    Such as?

    Baiting bite? Bluff isn't a class skill. Howl of terror? Okay, but your DC isn't likely to be very good. Snowslide? Again okay, but has dual saves, reflex to negate and fort to break every 3 seconds. All these options seem just worse than stunning fist.

  17. #57
    Community Member MiLoHe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    Turbine should add Air and Earth Elemental Forms as well as a Plant Form.

    Aesop
    Both /signed and /not signed, i will explain....a druid with the 4 forms (winter wolf dire bear water and fire elem) has already a lot of form switching to do, in order to use certain spells, or to maximize some spell's power. Adding more forms would just make it more tricky and less fun to play, but at the same time having more forms make the druid (spellcaster or melee) more versatile in what he/she is doing, sooooo imo, is a really delicate matter.
    (World Broadcast): World broadcast: 'Farewell to all our loyal players and thank you for your time in Eberron. We wish you all the best for your future adventures. Please log out now as the servers are now going down. Many thanks, Codemasters Online.'

  18. #58
    Community Member dredre9987's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    15-20*3 with IC:B=31/20 vs 21/20. Adjusted the attacks/minute according to MrCow's input which sees a 15% attack speed advantage to clonk. The critical multiplier sees a 48% advantage per hit which puts wolf form in front of clonk despite the slower attack speed. Once you consider the advantage of sword and board - say, radiance II scimitar/alchemical air/air shield - and the SA available to druid - say 3d6 helf+2d6 PrE+2d6 capstone+4d6 dire wolf - and the AC/PRR, I think I'd prefer a wolf form druid at the moment more than a clonk.

    Stunning Fist is good but there are some decent looking wolf form spells to give SA or helpless state without having to slot the gear though stunning blow still looks decent.

    Is it 4d6 SA from dire wolf? No stats on wiki, just going off memory.

    Edit: Not saying that druids are great, but I think they're better than clonks at the moment.


    You can use stunning fist in animal form if you multiclass
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitesco View Post
    Oh and honestly, you are all carrying portal beaters on your casters? What on earth are you using it on often enough to clog up your bag with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Portals.

  19. #59
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    702

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Such as?

    Baiting bite? Bluff isn't a class skill. Howl of terror? Okay, but your DC isn't likely to be very good. Snowslide? Again okay, but has dual saves, reflex to negate and fort to break every 3 seconds. All these options seem just worse than stunning fist.
    I'd like to add that howl of terror is enchantment based and needs to break sr, both of which mean you'll never ever land it against epic drow for example. Also, switching forms is entirely too costly as it is now. If you're a caster spec you want to use elemental form, and probably the form buff tied to it. Using just a single snow slide inbetween would cost you:

    some sp to shift to wolf + the actual cost for snowslide + some sp to shift to elemental form + sp to reapply form buff

    all this with the limited sp of a wizard and no slas...

  20. #60
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    527

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Baiting bite? Bluff isn't a class skill. Howl of terror? Okay, but your DC isn't likely to be very good. Snowslide? Again okay, but has dual saves, reflex to negate and fort to break every 3 seconds. All these options seem just worse than stunning fist.
    This.

    Plus of course baiting bite doesn't actually work as described. No bluff check is being activated. Lets pretend for a minute it did work as described, it would be pretty hard to get the skill up to a decent level due to not being a class skill.

    Agree the saves on the wolf abilities are going to be very low compared to what you can easily get SF dc up to.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload