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  1. #21
    The Hatchery teh_meh's Avatar
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    So I am going to go ahead and assume then, that me doing 3 sorc + 3 FvS + 3 Wiz for a caster druid is a total waste of time then?

    le sigh
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  2. #22
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    Druids and espcially caster druids are def the weakest casting class by far of all the the casters. heck even my bard is more functional then my 3x sorc pl 1x cleri pl fully specced caster druid. now the biggest flaws of the caster druid are..

    no natural or added feats. with spells into 3 !!! schools

    this hurt the caster druid the most.. what to increase.. transmutation evocation or conjuration the spells are way to scattered all over the place resulting in 1 half functional dc and 2 really bad ones. woohoo you have ice elemental form,.. guess what ice flowers is transmuation.. so you need to debuff them first with mantle of the icy soul to even have a half chance to land a spell at them..

    spec into evocation guess what fireseeds and natures vengeance are conjuration and so is creeping doom..

    wolf howl is enchantment and 90% of the animal forms use some kind of wisdom mod instead of a school..and even if you got maxed out wisdom we are talking about a max dc of 35 at level 20 for the wolf dash.. 35 lol.. fortitude saves + a save every 3 seconds.. you know how long that will last in epic ? if your lucky 6 seconds.. but 90% fail is more like it..overall useless.

    the meager sp pool and no sla are just a joke.. even with 3x sorc pl archmagi item and greensteel conc op sp item and 1855 sp at lvl 18 i chuck pots more then i ever did on my cleric and bard and sorceror combined..

    caster druids play like a sorc but with 1000 sp less and no slas. the whole natures herald is just another slap in the face... going wolf form and take the 2.5x casting time then..

    yea good idea wolf form and melee on a class that has a reflex save thats comparable to a cleric in heavy full plate and tower shield..

    i just love to eat those 180~250 bladebarriers and 250 damage cometfalls don't get me started on the 460 disintigrates.

    pure caster druids as it stands now is pretty much fail.. i lvled 3 mill exp so far and if it wasnt for the 3x sorc pl it would be even more fail then it is right now.. at least eartquake is half functional to bad the damage is that of a lvl 1 spell tho.. were talking about 21~30 damage.. the kind of damage you need to hit a waterworks kobold 3x with for him to keel over..

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by teh_meh View Post
    So I am going to go ahead and assume then, that me doing 3 sorc + 3 FvS + 3 Wiz for a caster druid is a total waste of time then?

    le sigh
    i would highly advise you to stay far away from druids with those kinda pl set up. +9 spellpen is a joke for a druid because most of there spells dont require spellpen.

    i got 3 sorc pl also..+60 sp is like nothing. its like 1 extra fireswall maxed. you end up chucking pots 70% in the quest instead of 68% into the quest.

    +3 evocation is nice but the sorc has like a 99% more use of those +3 evocation then the druid because their spells are in 3 different schools.

    go for a sorc with that set up.. +9 spellpen is huge on a sorc you can spec into cc and damage.. wich is like much more functional then 40% the damage of a sorc and 40% the healing potential of a cleric and 40% the melee potential of a barb..

    the only thing druids and caster druids got going for them is that they can run really really hard in town with wolf form..

    but i raced with a monk around town and they are still faster..
    Last edited by bartosy; 07-09-2012 at 11:38 AM.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery teh_meh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartosy View Post
    i would highly advise you to stay far away from druids with those kinda pl set up. +9 spellpen is a joke for a druid because most of there spells dont require spellpen.

    i got 3 sorc pl also..+60 sp is like nothing. its like 1 extra fireswall maxed. you end up chucking pots 70% in the quest instead of 68% into the quest.

    +3 evocation is nice but the sorc has like a 99% more use of those +3 evocation then the druid because their spells are in 3 different schools.

    go for a sorc with that set up.. +9 spellpen is huge on a sorc you can spec into cc and damage.. wich is like much more functional then 40% the damage of a sorc and 40% the healing potential of a cleric and 40% the melee potential of a barb..

    the only thing druids and caster druids got going for them is that they can run really really hard in town with wolf form..

    but i raced with a monk around town and they are still faster..
    damn, that's a heartbreaker but I hear ya. Thanks.
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  5. #25
    Community Member msdesign's Avatar
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    /not signed.

    Druids are a multi-featured class with already unique abilities and bells & whistles nobody else has. Thats their advantage, their adaptability. I think we should not make them more powerfull than they already are.

    So not signed.

    And please decrease Druid visual effects a bit, it hurts performance and lag on some clients.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    /not signed.

    Druids are a multi-featured class with already unique abilities and bells & whistles nobody else has. Thats their advantage, their adaptability. I think we should not make them more powerfull than they already are.

    So not signed.

    And please decrease Druid visual effects a bit, it hurts performance and lag on some clients.
    The fact that your pc can't handle visual effects does not make druids powerful. (yes I've read your complaining about druids post)

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    imagine drow getting Spider as a form
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    imagine drow getting Scorpion as a form
    Yes.

    Though it would be cool if Turbine worked in multiple options for all the animal/elemental types that are currently in DDO. (ex. Wolf/Winter Wolf; Bear/Dire Bear; Panther -> Razor Cat; Scorpion -> Night Scorpion; Rat/Dire Rat) Edit: Also, don’t give me any of that “But that creature is a ______, not an animal.” The devs sent that ship out to sea when they let us shapeshift into a Magical Beast (Winter Wolf)
    Last edited by QuantumFX; 07-09-2012 at 01:42 PM.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  8. #28
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    I played 2 druids to cap in beta and while they don't feel powerful at the front end, they defiantly wont suit someone who prefers a faster gameplay, they have little problem with killing, and have the edge in aoe dots, mobs with reflex saves been their only real bane. Ice storm/firewall + body of the sun, creeping doom, + earth quake, storm of Ven and spike growth is alot of aoe damage options over time and rather sp efficient if you add the melee damage from a pet and a summon which is kinda the point of alot of the druid enchantments.

    The real weakness I see is the caster prestige class for druids, the spell boosts seem minor and its annoying to have to macromanage which season your on imo. In most cases I'd want to stick to fire unless mobs were immune since there's so many good spells compared to cold and no one else has to manage the seasons + pets + watch group for backup heals etc, its a rather busy class.

  9. #29

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    I'm reserving judgement until we get the enhancement revamps and we see druids "real" prestige enhancements.

    For the moment, druids are pretty good at everything... and that makes them really awesome at nothing.

    They do great spell damage but have a shallow mana pool.
    They are very durable but not so much as dedicated tanks.
    They are good healers but lack the depth of FS or the breadth of Cleric.
    they can deal good damage but don't have the DPS of dedicated classes.

    What they lack is anything entirely unique or easy to develop. They work great low level and are easy to play. They are great for solo play or standard questing. But they clearly don't have an epic level specialty like most other classes do.

    Still, I think if you are having trouble making an effective druid, then you must not be trying all that hard, but if you compare them to the best of other classes, I do suspect they will fall a little short.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Dolphious's Avatar
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    I have a lvl 16 druid right now, and I have to agree with the sentiment that they're like a sorc with less sp, slightly weaker spells, an annoy rotation mechanic with season's herald, more spells schools making investing in DCs at all questionable, and no SLAs (except spring resurgence, which is nice, but seems buggy (doesn't always proc), and risky to rely on (depends on hovering around 50% HP).

    THe one up side is better defense (heavy shield and medium armor), but it's not a huge difference than my last wizard life.

    Flame blade would be a kind of nice melee option to save some SP in light fights, but it's pretty weak and the fact that it goes away if you switch to a wand/scroll/caster stick/etc makes it loose a lot of it's luster.

    Enhancements are hideously expensive, which is some real salt in the wound of a rotation mechanic (it's hard to specialize, and it's hard to be a generalist)

    It's still been an easy class to level (if you have firewall, ice storm, and a shield, it's pretty easy), but I don't see what it's got on a sorc or even a wizard (maybe on par with a wizard that tries to play like a sorc).
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  11. #31
    Community Member msdesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LupusVai View Post
    The fact that your pc can't handle visual effects does not make druids powerful. (yes I've read your complaining about druids post)
    I can go through the Marketplace, through the Harbor, players can drop ice storms on top of me, I can run through moving blades (dying yes) without all of that making me lag or visually glitch something so seriously to the point I can't play neither move my own character while those effects are active. That happens when a full-of-effects druid goes in front of me, only. I've been in waterfalls, lava, lightning, acid, force effects, and so many other situations I can't describe half of them here, and none cause the same impact as the druids do.

    When a party member has some effect that goes beyond that and requires substancial more system resources than normal average to play the game in a stable way, I think something needs a tweak. Or the game engine, or the effects themselves. My computer was assembled by myself, I do know what my hardware is capable of, and its plain ridiculous for a player to lower its game graphical settings only because development team decide that a new P2P class must have the ubber special effects (to show-off? Tryout new meshes and effects? Do that on Lamania, please).

    And I did lowered the settings. I'm waiting for the opportunity to play with another druid (one who has those special abilities) to check if the problem persists.

    You are right, the effects situation does not make them more or less powerfull, I though I've been explicit in that matter. I do think they have the correct power currently, whatever their visual effects can be.

    They have a mix of abilities, and that is their advantage over all the others. Rangers are good scouts and have good buffs for the team. Some can also do traps if the player works on that. But do they need to have a stronger buff ability? No. Do they need to disarm traps so good as a rogue or an arti? No. Do they need sneak attack as a rogue? No. Get my point?

    Thank you for your feedback, tough
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post

    They have a mix of abilities, and that is their advantage over all the others. Rangers are good scouts and have good buffs for the team. Some can also do traps if the player works on that. But do they need to have a stronger buff ability? No. Do they need to disarm traps so good as a rogue or an arti? No. Do they need sneak attack as a rogue? No. Get my point?

    Thank you for your feedback, tough
    This about says it all. The fact that you call rangers scouts in a game that has no use for scouting apart from in maybe a role playing group..lol. Let alone being a good party buffer part. Try leveling multiple TR's of the different character classes. Join a competitive raiding guild, play some epic elites and then you'll understand why people are saying the class is poor. I'm guessing you haven't even played a druid for that matter let alone capped TR' toons.

    The fact is that druids have a little bit of this and that which makes them a bit of fun to play, but they really just aren't very good at anything. DDO is a game of min maxing when you play it on a more than just casual level. For a class that is new out and premium, its just plain meh. There is precisely one druid (not even another character with even just a splash of druid) in the guild. The opinion is pretty universal amongst the other members of the guild that druids are a waste of a raid or epic spot if there's any other caster class that will join and they are a waste of a dps slot too. Pretty much goes to show how pointless they are when no one else wants to even make one.

    Basing your opinion on grouping with one for some low to mid level quests on normal difficulty really has no relevancy for the over all state of the class.

    I do, however, totally agree that when a class can do a bit of lots of different things then it can't be excellent at them all. But the druid class does need some tweaking in a big way to make it viable end game. As many others have said the pre's are lackluster and the class is bug ridden and has very poor AP enhancement balance for the casting abilities.
    Last edited by LupusVai; 07-09-2012 at 04:37 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    Druids are versatile and, if balanced, they would therefore be weaker than a class that is specialised.

    I suspect that druids are better healers than barbarians, better offensive spellcasters than fighters, better melee DPS than a sorc. That does not mean they should have their effectiveness with respect to these aspects reduced.

    Of course they will be somewhat weaker with full caster spec than an arcane. And they will be weaker in DPS mode than specialised melees. And that doesn't mean they should be boosted in these aspects either.

    The interesting thing is that they can do a lot of things quite well and am perfectly satisfied with mine. In any case it takes time for the true strengths and weaknesses of a class to be fully worked out. Give druid some time as it is before wasting valuable development time tinkering with it.
    It's true that versatility should have a price. This is why monks and paladins aren't quite expected to have the same dps as a barbarian. But it has to be a balanced price.

    So overall the druid class is generalized and you can choose to emphasize how you want to play the class. The problem is, for example, where someone decides "I'm not that interested in the caster part of this class, I want to optimize for melee".
    So you sync all your feats into optimizing fighting as a wolf (eg. natural fighting x3) and you become quite weak as a caster. Should you have as much dps as a barb or fighter? No. But should you be weaker melee dps than a clonk? No.

    If Turbine wants to force druids to be middle-of-the-road hybrids then it shouldn't be possible to take natural fighting 3 times with such mediocre results. Either make the impact bigger or only make it possible to take the feat once but give a bigger boost (eg. 12% doublestrike for the one feat).
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  14. #34
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    I've tried to love Druids.
    I've wanted to love Druids.


    I just can't do it, however. There is so little going for Druids it's almost hard to fathom. They have some snazzy bells and whistles. They have some neat looking spell-effects, and the elemental forms at least look cool. But - that's all they have. Beyond those aspects, they suck and suck hard. Melee, casting, healing, summoning, pet owners... all markedly inferior to at least one other class in the game, and superior to none.


    I almost hate myself for being among the "Where's My Druid" crowd for all these years if this was going to be what we got as a result.
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  15. #35
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    I am hoping that instead of going OP at launch followed by a hard nerf, they have decided to build druids up as they go.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    lots of possible variations...

    the bare minimum is 9 druid for access to natural fight. feats. another good breaking point is 15 for access to heal. combine with fighter and/or monk for bonus feats and you are golden.
    Have you tried this in game yet?

  17. #37
    Community Member Dolphious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    I am hoping that instead of going OP at launch followed by a hard nerf, they have decided to build druids up as they go.
    Yeah, that's my hope. They know how dramatic the process can be for nerfing anything in the slightest, so they start out low and buff to taste.

    here's to hopping that's the plan
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  18. #38
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Ignoring the fact that druid doesn't even have its own epic destiny yet, the two quintessential druid templates are generally worse than divine or arcane alternatives.

    Template 1: full caster spec. This is basically just a weak arcane with a weaker spell selection, no SLAs and no utility spells like ddoor. Season's herald PrE is extremely weak and cumbersome. Chasing the right element to maximize efficiency is very druid-esque, but it's just annoying and not fun, since you'd have to switch elemental forms every 5 minutes to take advantage. It also shouldn't be required to use the once every 20 minute clickie to start the cycle.

    Suggestions:
    • have elemental forms lock in seasonal bonuses. Fire elemental locks in summer and water elemental locks in winter.
    • Remove the malus to acid/electric spells in elemental forms.
    • Increase spell power bonus to seasons herald by 1.5-2x - considering sorcs would still do more DPS, this wouldn't be overpowered.
    • Give elemental forms SLAs. Make ice flowers an SLA for water elemental and add in a fireball-type SLA for fire.


    Template 2: melee DPS hybrid. Wolf form melee DPS is mathematically low. A cleric clonk has more melee DPS, better casting DPS and stunning fist. It doesn't help that wolf melee range is such that you need to be right on top to be able to hit things. Fatal harrier is useless at end game, since you'll rarely get the kill. Also, you can't use scrolls or wands in animal forms - this is HUGE for caster types.

    Suggestions:
    • allow wand and scrolls in animal forms. Not lore acceptable? Considering you can use potions and clickies, it hardly matters.
    • Buff natural fighting. Double, or even triple the bonus to put it on par with TWF feats. A character that goes to such length such as changing their entire body should do more melee DPS than character that casually splashes two levels of monk.
    • Make the DCs on melee form attacks (e.g., takedown) competitive, on par with stunning fist. As they are now, they're terrible.
    • Remove the AB penalty when dual wielding, since you don't get the benefit anyway.
    I sadly have to agree that I am a little bit disappointed with the overall result of Druids and even has the worst past life in my opinion. The animal forms lack a big boost and the only way to make them at lest a little bit viable is to multiclass with monk. I mean, really? The Artificer was made about right, trap skills, self healing, cool capstone but compared to that the Druid is just anemic and lackluster which is a pity.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the vigor thing as a different mechanic to the existing heals and cures, but its more a gimmick of implementation. The overall end result is below expectations.

    So I agree:
    * increase overall spell power through the enhancements
    * increase damage output in forms, maybe through enhancements that add up natural fighting
    * have some kind of damage dice increase like monks
    * lower some AP on enhancements
    * create some possibilities to increase the DCs of some of the spells
    * make the fire blade more persistent like the summoned bolts from the artificer, to be able to swap items
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  19. #39
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msdesign View Post
    ...And I did lowered the settings. I'm waiting for the opportunity to play with another druid (one who has those special abilities) to check if the problem persists.

    You are right, the effects situation does not make them more or less powerfull, I though I've been explicit in that matter. I do think they have the correct power currently, whatever their visual effects can be.

    They have a mix of abilities, and that is their advantage over all the others. Rangers are good scouts and have good buffs for the team. Some can also do traps if the player works on that. But do they need to have a stronger buff ability? No. Do they need to disarm traps so good as a rogue or an arti? No. Do they need sneak attack as a rogue? No. Get my point?...
    I think first of all Turbine should adjust the minimal system requirement page as I believe the overall system is beefed up but need as well a bit more under the hood. Also the automatic detecting system seems to activate far too much options even on systems that are below the specification. That said I guess it is not a good start to claim penalizing a class and removing some abilities or visuals because some players don't meet that minimum hardware specifications.

    However one other option I would suggest to you is to completely re-install your System and DDO on a fresh and clean disk. Windows tend to decrease overall in performance after a while (patches after patches that get installed, programs installed and de-installed) as like DDO does. Also check that your virtual memory space is on a different drive then the game if possible and has enough space. If e.g. on your system or game disk only 4GB space left then those can decrease performance as well.

    Last but not least some comments about Rangers. Who need scouts? I mean if you play this game long enough you know 99% of the trap locations by heart, have enough spot to notice them or enough HP to just plain ignore the damage of most traps. Regarding buffs rangers where hampered a lot with this update. Resist poison is not a buff anymore and better to use potions, freedom of movement is nerfed to work only on hold monster/person and barkskin doesn't stack with natural armor which you meanwhile get plenty-full on items. The only advantage is there hybrid capability of dual fighting and bow usage but even then behind a fighter or Arti.

    The difference is, you have to pay for Druid or Arti, and while the Artificer is a nice class there is zero incentive to buy a druid if his performance is below average. The druid should excel alone from that standpoint, as the commercial for 'they are just that cool' is already occupied for buying Drow. Just look in the past updates. As Artificer came out everybody yelled how overpowered they are, if I look now through the forum post I have the impression to see the opposite happening for the Druids. But maybe its just my perception ...
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  20. #40
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    ...and a very fast cleave animation and a wolf build can make a very strong dreadnaught.
    Oh is THAT what's doing it? This was the first character for whom I've taken cleave, and I was MASSIVELY impressed! I was just thinking respec my monks with Cleave... is it a wolf bonus that's making it appear so killer?

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