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  1. #1
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Default Druid is overall weak and needs a buff

    Ignoring the fact that druid doesn't even have its own epic destiny yet, the two quintessential druid templates are generally worse than divine or arcane alternatives.

    Template 1: full caster spec. This is basically just a weak arcane with a weaker spell selection, no SLAs and no utility spells like ddoor. Season's herald PrE is extremely weak and cumbersome. Chasing the right element to maximize efficiency is very druid-esque, but it's just annoying and not fun, since you'd have to switch elemental forms every 5 minutes to take advantage. It also shouldn't be required to use the once every 20 minute clickie to start the cycle.

    Suggestions:
    • have elemental forms lock in seasonal bonuses. Fire elemental locks in summer and water elemental locks in winter.
    • Remove the malus to acid/electric spells in elemental forms.
    • Increase spell power bonus to seasons herald by 1.5-2x - considering sorcs would still do more DPS, this wouldn't be overpowered.
    • Give elemental forms SLAs. Make ice flowers an SLA for water elemental and add in a fireball-type SLA for fire.


    Template 2: melee DPS hybrid. Wolf form melee DPS is mathematically low. A cleric clonk has more melee DPS, better casting DPS and stunning fist. It doesn't help that wolf melee range is such that you need to be right on top to be able to hit things. Fatal harrier is useless at end game, since you'll rarely get the kill. Also, you can't use scrolls or wands in animal forms - this is HUGE for caster types.

    Suggestions:
    • allow wand and scrolls in animal forms. Not lore acceptable? Considering you can use potions and clickies, it hardly matters.
    • Buff natural fighting. Double, or even triple the bonus to put it on par with TWF feats. A character that goes to such length such as changing their entire body should do more melee DPS than character that casually splashes two levels of monk.
    • Make the DCs on melee form attacks (e.g., takedown) competitive, on par with stunning fist. As they are now, they're terrible.
    • Remove the AB penalty when dual wielding, since you don't get the benefit anyway.

  2. #2
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    one thing i don't get
    why don't we get bonus/resistance to trip while in animal form??

    PS: it'd be so cool if the forms you can choose would differ depending on race
    imagine drow getting Spider as a form
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  3. #3
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    /signed i have tested druid on my multi tr char, druid is a very weak class.
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  4. #4
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    /signed

    A lot of tuning needing, and bug fixes.

  5. #5
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    I do agree they could use a buff here and there, clearly they were not meant to be the ruler class, FVS is still laughing from high above, esp with the Exalted Angel line 20+.

    They are mostly self sufficient
    They have bonuses to pets, that everyone in the group hates save the owner .
    With a balanced feat distribution, they get to cast and get to melee some, somewhat, well.

    ...This and more suggest that they are tweaked for solo experience. Wich is mostly < lvl16cas-hard, depending on quest.

    My wish list has some overlaps, im not at cap yet (16), so im sure additional ideas will come up later.

    Healing:
    *Allow extend on Vigors and Regeneration. This would pretty much make them raid viable support for the main healers.
    *Shorten the casting time and speed up the animation of Reincarnation, it takes way-tooo-loooong.

    Melee:
    * Increase die step for wolfs/bears with levels gained.
    * Some more Flameblade like spells would be great, that uses widsom modifier for atk/damage.

    Casting:
    * Spell points, the spells cost too much overall, i never had to chug spellpotions in general questing shrine to shrine,
    it is almost every instance with the Druid. // maybe some extra sp per heralds tier.

    * The season penalties are way too much. Especially considering how inconsistent it is .

    * The spell DCs are really low, considering you cant really fit in the feats, some boost to nature themed spells would be great.

  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Ignoring the fact that druid doesn't even have its own epic destiny yet, the two quintessential druid templates are generally worse than divine or arcane alternatives.

    Template 1: full caster spec. This is basically just a weak arcane with a weaker spell selection, no SLAs and no utility spells like ddoor. Season's herald PrE is extremely weak and cumbersome. Chasing the right element to maximize efficiency is very druid-esque, but it's just annoying and not fun, since you'd have to switch elemental forms every 5 minutes to take advantage. It also shouldn't be required to use the once every 20 minute clickie to start the cycle.

    Suggestions:
    • have elemental forms lock in seasonal bonuses. Fire elemental locks in summer and water elemental locks in winter.
    • Remove the malus to acid/electric spells in elemental forms.
    • Increase spell power bonus to seasons herald by 1.5-2x - considering sorcs would still do more DPS, this wouldn't be overpowered.
    • Give elemental forms SLAs. Make ice flowers an SLA for water elemental and add in a fireball-type SLA for fire.


    Template 2: melee DPS hybrid. Wolf form melee DPS is mathematically low. A cleric clonk has more melee DPS, better casting DPS and stunning fist. It doesn't help that wolf melee range is such that you need to be right on top to be able to hit things. Fatal harrier is useless at end game, since you'll rarely get the kill. Also, you can't use scrolls or wands in animal forms - this is HUGE for caster types.

    Suggestions:
    • allow wand and scrolls in animal forms. Not lore acceptable? Considering you can use potions and clickies, it hardly matters.
    • Buff natural fighting. Double, or even triple the bonus to put it on par with TWF feats. A character that goes to such length such as changing their entire body should do more melee DPS than character that casually splashes two levels of monk.
    • Make the DCs on melee form attacks (e.g., takedown) competitive, on par with stunning fist. As they are now, they're terrible.
    • Remove the AB penalty when dual wielding, since you don't get the benefit anyway.
    Interesting feedback. I haven't played druid yet but a few things occur to me.
    1. Do I understand correctly that a divine healer with firewall/ice storm isn't a combo that works while leveling?
    2. The DPS of wolf form is based on the inherent 1.3x normal attack speed. That means that you're getting 1.3x the benefit of effects like haste, doublestrike and haste boost iirc
    3. Wolf form has a much better critical profile and you can take advantage of GS weapons iirc (so a radiance GS weapon with a dire wolfs 18-20*3 critical profile would keep enemies blinded consistently)
    4. You can benefit from the AC and PRR from medium armour and shields.

    It's a bad day to be a clonk, that is for certain, if it's even worse to be a druid then I do feel sorry for the class.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Blank_Zero's Avatar
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    Considering how immensely powerful an Artificer is whilst leveling, it is sad to hear that Druids are hurting for the power.
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  8. #8
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Interesting feedback. I haven't played druid yet but a few things occur to me.
    1. Do I understand correctly that a divine healer with firewall/ice storm isn't a combo that works while leveling?
    2. The DPS of wolf form is based on the inherent 1.3x normal attack speed. That means that you're getting 1.3x the benefit of effects like haste, doublestrike and haste boost iirc
    3. Wolf form has a much better critical profile and you can take advantage of GS weapons iirc (so a radiance GS weapon with a dire wolfs 18-20*3 critical profile would keep enemies blinded consistently)
    4. You can benefit from the AC and PRR from medium armour and shields.

    It's a bad day to be a clonk, that is for certain, if it's even worse to be a druid then I do feel sorry for the class.
    1. It does work while leveling, it's still a strong class to level since all by definition, all casters are. But it's just flat out weaker to level than a WF arcane.

    2-3. I realize that, but compare to a TWF hybrid which gets 1.8x, which also stacks with haste, doublestrike etc. I haven't run the math, but even with natural fighting, I'm betting a clonkish type would come out on top, end game. If not on top, at least comparable, and couple that with the other deficiencies mentioned, it just makes for a weaker toon.

  9. #9
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    1. It does work while leveling, it's still a strong class to level since all by definition, all casters are. But it's just flat out weaker to level than a WF arcane.

    2-3. I realize that, but compare to a TWF hybrid which gets 1.8x, which also stacks with haste, doublestrike etc. I haven't run the math, but even with natural fighting, I'm betting a clonkish type would come out on top, end game. If not on top, at least comparable, and couple that with the other deficiencies mentioned, it just makes for a weaker toon.
    TWF'ing bases the haste/doublestrike etc off the 1x base, in contrast when you add those multipliers to a 1.3x base you'll get a better return. Not sure if it's enough to offset the 80% offhand proc but I have a feeling that it could well do.

    Anyone done proper testing on it yet? Any got a feat layout that they've used for their wolf form druid and how much doublestrike it adds up to? I was looking on ddowiki for how info on dire wolf form and the natural fighting feats but they don't seem to be there.
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  10. #10
    Community Member MiLoHe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    [*]Give elemental forms SLAs. Make ice flowers an SLA for water elemental and add in a fireball-type SLA for fire.[/list][/list]
    Savants have sla spells, Archmages have sla spells, Necromancers have sla spells, Fvs have sla spell (capstone), clerics have sla spell (burst), /signed, druids need sla spells on elemental forms since they cant rely on a huge spell pool for nuking like sorcerers and dont have the DC like the wizards and cant heal like clerics and fvs
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  11. #11
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    Druids are versatile and, if balanced, they would therefore be weaker than a class that is specialised.

    I suspect that druids are better healers than barbarians, better offensive spellcasters than fighters, better melee DPS than a sorc. That does not mean they should have their effectiveness with respect to these aspects reduced.

    Of course they will be somewhat weaker with full caster spec than an arcane. And they will be weaker in DPS mode than specialised melees. And that doesn't mean they should be boosted in these aspects either.

    The interesting thing is that they can do a lot of things quite well and am perfectly satisfied with mine. In any case it takes time for the true strengths and weaknesses of a class to be fully worked out. Give druid some time as it is before wasting valuable development time tinkering with it.
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  12. #12
    Community Member MiLoHe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post

    I suspect that druids are better healers than barbarians, better offensive spellcasters than fighters, better melee DPS than a sorc.
    Your statement doesnt make any sense. Since when a barbarian is supposed to heal party member? Since when a fighter is supposer to cast spells? Since when a sorcerer is suposed to go in melee to do dps??
    If you want to make comparisons, please do examples that have sense.
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  13. #13
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    not sure about the caster side of things, but a melee druid can be made very powerful indeed. certainly, you need to multiclass in order to reach full dps potential due to all the feats required.

    with shield mastery feats and sentinel's twist you get very close to the attack rate of a TWF, for every 180 of the twfer, a druid gets at least 175 (the druid gets better the more additional double strike % you add to both).
    add to this the best crit profile (by far) in the game and a very fast cleave animation and a wolf build can make a very strong dreadnaught.

  14. #14
    Community Member Brattyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiLoHe View Post
    Savants have sla spells, Archmages have sla spells, Necromancers have sla spells, Fvs have sla spell (capstone), clerics have sla spell (burst), /signed, druids need sla spells on elemental forms since they cant rely on a huge spell pool for nuking like sorcerers and dont have the DC like the wizards and cant heal like clerics and fvs
    Normally I'm not one to whine or complain that because another class has something that I don't, I should have it too. But I would agree here. It seems like it was intended for casters (for all casters) to get sla spells. If you add more casters to the game, I would think you'd also give them sla spells.

  15. #15
    Community Member Meretrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    PS: it'd be so cool if the forms you can choose would differ depending on race
    imagine drow getting Spider as a form
    I can imagine, WF transforming into an Iron Defender

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=wax_on_wax_off;4574080
    3. Wolf form has a much better critical profile and you can take advantage of GS weapons iirc (so a radiance GS weapon with a dire wolfs 18-20*3 critical profile would keep enemies blinded consistently)
    [/QUOTE]

    The description says 18-20 the actual effect in game is 19-20. Not sure which is supposed to be correct though as all a dev said when it was mentioned was something like "that's interesting"

    Leveling is not so much the issue. End game and raiding is where they are just not really any use. The issue is that druids are just not really good at anything. Imagine a bard that has very little in the way of party buffs and doesn't sing any party buff songs.

  17. #17
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    TWF'ing bases the haste/doublestrike etc off the 1x base, in contrast when you add those multipliers to a 1.3x base you'll get a better return. Not sure if it's enough to offset the 80% offhand proc but I have a feeling that it could well do.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you give haste to a TWF toon, they'll get a hit multiplier of 1.15 * 1.8 = 2.07. If you give haste to wolf form: 1.3 (base) * 1.18 (natural fighting) * 1.15 (haste) = 1.76 if its multiplicative, i n which case the result won't change whether you have haste or not. If it's additive: (1.3 + 0.15) * 1.18 = 1.711, which is even worse returns. In either case, you won't get a better multiplier than TWF in wolf form.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    not sure about the caster side of things, but a melee druid can be made very powerful indeed. certainly, you need to multiclass in order to reach full dps potential due to all the feats required.

    with shield mastery feats and sentinel's twist you get very close to the attack rate of a TWF, for every 180 of the twfer, a druid gets at least 175 (the druid gets better the more additional double strike % you add to both).
    add to this the best crit profile (by far) in the game and a very fast cleave animation and a wolf build can make a very strong dreadnaught.
    An interesting take - got a build layout?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    An interesting take - got a build layout?
    lots of possible variations...

    the bare minimum is 9 druid for access to natural fight. feats. another good breaking point is 15 for access to heal. combine with fighter and/or monk for bonus feats and you are golden.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you give haste to a TWF toon, they'll get a hit multiplier of 1.15 * 1.8 = 2.07. If you give haste to wolf form: 1.3 (base) * 1.18 (natural fighting) * 1.15 (haste) = 1.76 if its multiplicative, i n which case the result won't change whether you have haste or not. If it's additive: (1.3 + 0.15) * 1.18 = 1.711, which is even worse returns. In either case, you won't get a better multiplier than TWF in wolf form.
    Wolf form lagging slightly behind TWF isn't such a bad thing. The wolf druid has the defensive options of a shield, and theoretically comes out ahead damage-wise over any other shield-using melee build. Kind of makes me wonder if an animal form druid could benefit from the on-hit shield bash procs of Shield Mastery? Logic says they shouldn't (weapons and shields being absorbed into the body and all that), but if they can, it would close the cap slightly.

  20. #20
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LupusVai View Post
    The description says 18-20 the actual effect in game is 19-20. Not sure which is supposed to be correct though as all a dev said when it was mentioned was something like "that's interesting"

    Leveling is not so much the issue. End game and raiding is where they are just not really any use. The issue is that druids are just not really good at anything. Imagine a bard that has very little in the way of party buffs and doesn't sing any party buff songs.
    They make excellent tank healers. Single target HOT spells and heal spell + scrolls.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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