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  1. #1
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Thumbs down New items in DDO store: Gameplay defining?

    I'm not usually one to cry "Capitalism!" when Turbine does something that looks to lead to store purchases, but it's hard not to when viewing the new stuff in the store.


    • Epic destinies: So, we get a rather significant grind, and a really irritating mechanic, for moving from one destiny to another, and being forced into certain spheres based on our class make-up, even if we don't want to start in that particular sphere, and the DDO store gets some items that let us skip these really irritating mechanics. Oh, and despite many players being rather vocal about these annoyances on both the Closed Beta forums and Lamannia forums, I haven't seen any dev post explaining why we have the arduous 3 or 4 levels needed to unlock adjacent destinies/spheres, which lends more weight to this being a money-making move. Again, I'm not against Turbine trying to make money, but this is a really low way of doing it.
    • Fate points: Like the above, we receive a hefty grind, that is likely to dissuade many people from pursuing more than a few fate points, and then get some unlocks in the store. These at least feel like a bonus, rather than a complete work-around, but still seems kind of underhanded.
    • Destiny swap: In-quest destiny swapping via the store? I dislike the store circumventing mechanics so thoroughly. Buying Thieves' tools because you ran out is one thing, Spirit Cakes because you died, fine...we have resurrection items, and the self-rez is a nice boost for soloers, but mid-quest destiny swapping? Not a fan of this being a store-only mechanic. We should either be able to do this somehow without the store, or not at all.
    • New HP pots: Players have been clamoring for better healing options for non-casters. CSW (and even CCW) pots just don't really cut it when you have 400+ HP, so now we're getting pots that can heal for as much as 80 HP, before healing amp, in the store (likely going to be between 80 and 100 HP for many characters), that don't have an in-game analog as far as I can tell. If you want to be able to heal yourself, and don't have a blue bar and healing abilities, spend TP.
    • New SP pots: The current store pots were already better than the existing Major Mnemonics because they had a smaller range (much higher average), but weren't strictly better than the loot we can find in the game. Are their new Mnemonics dropping in-game now? I haven't heard of anything to this effect on Lamannia. So now the store items are clearly much better?
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  2. #2
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    I posted a thread about the pay-to-win Fate tomes. Those items cross the line.

    Without buying one, several potentially powerful Twist combinations are impossible, such as a Tier 4 twist, a Tier 2 one and a Tier 1 one.

    I'm getting concerned that some of the other items skirt the LOTRO-style 'make the game suck unless you buy X, Y and Z from the store' - particularly the whole 'Want Magister on your totally non-melee FVS? Then grind melee destinies' thing.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  3. #3
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    Exclamation ***

    See the title.

  4. #4

  5. #5
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    Are these on live? Or just on llama?

  6. #6
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    Are these on live? Or just on llama?
    Coming with the expansions release on Monday.

    It's the start of a very slippery slope, especially the buy adjacent destinies and fate point tomes. Needing 2 million XP to cap the destiny you want is bad enough without having to get to level 3 or 4 in a bunch of other ones because you are forced to start in one you don't want.

    Sorta the same issue on the whole loom of fate item, what was the cost on lammania to reset the fate points in your active tree? Something like 100kpp?

  7. #7
    Community Member BitkaCK2's Avatar
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    Default A new threshold

    Original F2P was all:


    The bar has been raised. The future is, You can't win if you don't pay. Of course you could go all Korean MMO on the shyst and grind mother heifer grind but when you could ching-ching for some bling-bling why would you? Right?

    <insert successful 'ftp' demographics here>

    Not to whizz on anyone's parade but while there is no twist of fate except that.... err never mind. Basically Turbine has set the future in stone. The xpack will launch. These will be in the store. Many of the folks decrying it as over the line will buy them. Me? Well I was born a poor... oh wait... dang nvm again. I mean if I decide to play come recovery from my medical crud (and as loathe as I am to admit it I know I will), I will buy these if I have need to. Pay-to-win has been escalated. There's a good chance this was a necessary fiscal move. Sort of a 'in for a penny in for a pounding' thing. The wave of the future is here. Only this time I'm not so welcoming of our new DDO Store overlords.

    Anyway, just some beer soaked ramblings... speaking of which this one's empty. Time for a sammich and fresh brew.

    ttfn,
    bitkaCK2
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Well, look at their track record...

    SP pots in the store crossed the line. People complained and then got used to it.

    Turbine got away with it.

    +3 tomes in the store crossed the line. People complained and then most got used to it.

    Turbine got away with it.

    This is crossing a whole new line. People will complain. Most will get used to it.

    Nothing will change. Turbine will get away with this.

    They will get away with releasing the termites nest that is the Xpac, too.

  9. #9
    Community Member Full_Bleed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Epic destinies: So, we get a rather significant grind, and a really irritating mechanic, for moving from one destiny to another, and being forced into certain spheres based on our class make-up, even if we don't want to start in that particular sphere,
    Every class shouldn't be entitled to every sphere. There is nothing wrong with the mechanic they have in the game. That said...

    and the DDO store gets some items that let us skip these really irritating mechanics.
    Ok, this is cheap. It undermines their system. Being able to access further spheres should be a point of accomplishment and pride. Not a matter of spending a few dollars to jump the line.

    Oh, and despite many players being rather vocal about these annoyances on both the Closed Beta forums and Lamannia forums, I haven't seen any dev post explaining why we have the arduous 3 or 4 levels needed to unlock adjacent destinies/spheres,
    Because the system speaks for itself. If you want to break into abilities that are particularly removed from the core make-up of your character you're going to have to work for it. It's a fair system that gives people at/near end game something to strive for.

    which lends more weight to this being a money-making move. Again, I'm not against Turbine trying to make money, but this is a really low way of doing it.
    Now this I agree with. Either breaking into additional spheres is a true accomplishment or it isn't. Making it purchasable diminishes the accomplishment and cheapens the whole system.

  10. #10
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    so wait..

    we payed 50~80$ just to have acces to something
    that cost antoher 5~20$ per character.. ?

    really .. ?!

    is that how you define gameplay..

    i thought rappelz was bad with its pets and gambles chances but this crosses a whole different border alltogether..

    i must ve put at least 200$ into this game already.. just to be able to play everything and now they want even more of my money .

    we need a dev response on this topic.
    Last edited by bartosy; 06-22-2012 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartosy View Post
    so wait..

    we payed 50~80$ just to have acces to something
    that cost antoher 5~20$ per character.. ?

    really .. ?!
    No, these things are consumables that let you, for example, change what Destiny you're using. All you need to buy 'access' to is Epic Destinies, the adventure packs, the challenge pack, and the Druid class, just like everything else. The only thing they've done differently is essentially make Epic enhancements something you have to buy.

    Back on topic, I don't really have a problem with this stuff at the moment. I'll have a problem if the Fate tomes cannot be obtained except through the DDO Store, but that's it. Destinies being something you have to buy is also kind of weird, but since it's only for level 20+ characters, that's not as big of a deal, as there's plenty of time to grind out TP on the way to 20.

    Will some people be able to buy their way through quests? Sure. But they've always been able to do that, ever since the DDO Store came out. Does that impact me? As much as it does now, which is none.

    If anything, these are good. More things in the store are more things people can buy, which gives Turbine more money to keep the game running. We do all like playing the game, right?

    I honestly don't understand the whole 'pay-to-win' complaining thing. Aside from content, races, and classes, they aren't selling anything in the store that can't be at least comparably acquired through playing, and even those can be acquired with favor. And even if they did sell +10 Swords of Awesome in the store, how does that impact my game? If they group with me, they top the kill count? Oh no? Yeah, don't get it. Colour me confused.

    The last thing I'll say is I have no idea why they're forcing people to start at certain destinies based on their main class. People should be able to choose whatever destiny they want to start with. There's no real reason to restrict it imo, and that'd be the only thing I'd want changed in this whole thing.

  12. #12
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    SP pots in the store crossed the line. People complained and then got used to it.
    I'm really not sure how it will be in high-level game, but so far I'm working well without them. Level 9 only, though.

    I'm using those "Mnemnonic Potions" (or how they can't spell, I just can't memorize this name !!!) that drop every now and then.

    And of course I'm developing my wizard so that he is able to do a bit melee damage when run out of spell points, too.

    (Which gives me an idea ... Fighter/Barbarian + Wizard ??? LOL )
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  13. #13
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    I'm not really bothered by those.
    Keys to unlock adjacent destinies ? You don't get fate points doing so... Yes it allows you to skip some grind, but it comes at a cost. I probably won't be using those, the idea of destinies is to be able to play your character differently to have fun longer isn't it ?

    Fate tomes ? Yes, those are probably the most pay-to-win since they provide a bonus not available anywhere else. Still, it's "just" 2 fate points, while there are 16 fate points available by playing, it's not that huge. They don't bother me more than learning tomes (considering I only pre-purchased the standard edition I had to buy a greater the full price for all my preferred characters, I will do the same for those)

    Destiny swap ? I really don't know why I would want to swap destiny in the middle of a quest. Oh, and can't VIPs do that already anyway ?

    HP pots ? They're still too weak and way too expensive.

    SP pots ? I don't see how those are more pay-to-win than the old ones, anyone buying enough will have an unlimited SP bar, and the fact they give more SP probably won't help in the situations you'd want that extra SP per potion : when everything is already going wrong, you and your party members are taking a whole lot of damage and you're burning 500 SP per 10 seconds.
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  14. #14

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    All I got to say is - if I ever get to a point where something I feel I need to advance is only available through the store, I'm canceling my account. No point paying a subscription for the convenience of having access to everything if, well, you don't :P

  15. #15
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Take a loot at lotro, turbine's other game.

    P2W or not, to get traits (which are a little like DDO's feats IMO) you need to pay 95TP for each slot. Thats 1,520TP per character.

    I feel like I know which direction devs are going...

  16. #16
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    For every person that complains, there are probably 3 more out there that will favor grind to not have to use $ to pay for it, not even counting the ViPs with stipends. That is $ that Turbine never sees.

    *shrugs* it isn't game breaking any more than power gamers that have all the raid loot, gear crafted, etc. that the casuals that play a lot can never get.

    I'm currently not vip or anything. But I have little issue if buying something out of the store increases my fun a bit. Yeah, I'd have more issue if it were PvP, probably a lot more of an issue. But it isn't, this is me against... emm..... who am I fighting against again? Oh yeah... a game, not other people.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 06-22-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by BitkaCK2 View Post
    There's a good chance this was a necessary fiscal move. Sort of a 'in for a penny in for a pounding' thing. The wave of the future is here. Only this time I'm not so welcoming of our new DDO Store overlords.
    You're probably right.

    If that's the case, I'd much rather see more cosmetic items in the store FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!! Be it pets, hair-do's, clothes, etc.

    Put a cosmetic dress in the DDO Store, slap it with a "One Week Only" sign, and people will buy it. I would buy it. Especially if it was unbound and could be traded later (ideally, for another "One Week Only" dress).

    Wouldn't impact gaming at all, just the fluff-traders. Which would be a new class in the game under that kind of system: the Fluff Trader. Dealing in the finest quality fluff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Take a loot at lotro, turbine's other game.

    P2W or not, to get traits (which are a little like DDO's feats IMO) you need to pay 95TP for each slot. Thats 1,520TP per character.

    I feel like I know which direction devs are going...

    On the other hand, if Turbine ever put extra Feat Slots in the DDO Store for 95 TP each I would buy them if they persisted through TR's. In a HEARTBEAT.
    Last edited by HalfOrcBeautyQueen; 06-22-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Richtenfaust's Avatar
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    DDO/Turbine has one of the most brilliant strategies I've ever seen in a F2P MMO... Give the players every convenience imaginable...for a price. I am amused that people are complaining about anything being available in the DDO Store, because hey, guess what...this MMO is about the people who make the game *making money*. It's not F2P because some benevolent soul wanted everyone to experience the wondrous glory that is D&D and the Eberron Setting. They get what they want...money...and we get what we want...an alternative to WoW that has a *good* story, better gameplay, and for some of us, that "D&D Experience".

    Come on now, seriously... Complaining about something you can grind out slowly and painfully or conveniently buy in the store to avoid the grind? Hi...that's *everything*. Why would you expect the business model to change with this expansion? Someone posted about "pay to win"...well...if can tell me how this is a *bad* thing for a company that is seeking to capitalize on their product, I'm all ears. Are people leaving in droves because the guy who is willing to spend real money to get the perfectly tweaked out combo of Destinies is able to tank/solo/whatever with a bit more ease than the guy who can't afford the TPs? Nope...and they never will. Because ~.00001% of the community actually cares about that sort of thing. Personally, I walk into a quest and want to walk out with XP and loot. If the guy who has my back has decided to put tons of money into making sure he always wins, then more power to him. It's a TEAM MMO. Anybody notice how there are still no tangible rewards for PvP? Aaaaaanyone wanna guess why? It's a game based on DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...a party-based, encourage-you-to-help-your-friend RPG. That's why I like it...that's why you need to stop whining about people being willing to buy happiness in a game where the Devs are just giving the people the *option* to do it the easy way.

    If you don't like the item in the store, don't buy it. If it's such a game-changer that you feel the need to moan about how unfair it is that others *can* buy it, maybe you should get off the forums...sacrifice your farming runs...and get a part-time job exclusively for the purpose of earning money so that you can have the best character EVARRRRR. Some people on this game have money...other people who run this game want to make money...the system works.

    Incidentally, do you have a Greater Learning Tome on your character? Did you loot it (is that even possible)? I'll bet some of you that are complaining do, if not all! How do you think it makes that guy who grinded through three TRs *before* that was an option feel...the guy who paid out the nose for 20% XP Potions, and now you get a permanent 20% XP boost for a fraction of the overall cost? How is it fair to be able to just buy an item that ramps up your XP like crazy? It's a more painful game for the guy who pinches his pennies, no doubt...but just because you can't afford it and someone else can doesn't mean it's "unfair". Well, maybe it does. Life is unfair. If you want equality, start your own Communist country.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    Well, look at their track record...

    SP pots in the store crossed the line. People complained and then got used to it.

    Turbine got away with it.

    +3 tomes in the store crossed the line. People complained and then most got used to it.

    Turbine got away with it.

    This is crossing a whole new line. People will complain. Most will get used to it.

    Nothing will change. Turbine will get away with this.

    They will get away with releasing the termites nest that is the Xpac, too.
    Sad but true.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  20. #20
    Community Member Superspeed_Hi5's Avatar
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    Epic level Gold Seal Hirelings? Why would anyone ever PuG again? Cant find real players? Buy some hirelings which probably have better gear and HP then actual players. wink wink nudge nudge.

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