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  1. #1
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Arrow Twisted Talisman .. Change. And some comments on poor scaling in epics.

    Always been a weird item that didnt function per descript, but even weirder now in u14..

    Live:
    Blood sacrifice works a little different then the official description which states it only costs 25 hit points. It actually deals 38 untyped damage in exchange for 50 spell points. This damage is effected by dungeon scaling, so while solo you will generally see (roughly as dungeon scaling does vary from class to class) these values:

    Casual: 7 damage
    Normal: 15 damage
    Hard: 20 damage
    Elite: 26 damage
    Epic/Raid/Solo (unscaled damage): 38 damage

    Note: This item only drops on normal/hard/elite difficulties, not epic.

    Beta - Epic modes, didn't check Heroics:
    Epic Casual: 23 damage
    Epic Normal: 52 damage
    Epic Hard: 58 damage
    Epic Epic Elite/Any Raid (unscaled damage): 105 sometimes 110 damage - See screenshots

    Note: Test was done on CR20 epic (Tide Turns) at lvl25. Lvl vs CR does affect scaling so your results will vary slightly.

    EE Screenshots:
    http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1...dtalisman1.jpg
    http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7...dtalisman2.jpg

    Not much to say on this, other then it's strange and helps show us a bit how scaling works in epics:

    Casual: Note that the low dmg isn't really a good indication that casual scales more. It doesn't really. Casual/Normal,hard and heroic elite all scale exactly the same despite devs claiming otherwise. Each additional party member will add the same percentage of incomign dmg/hp/etc. The difference in casual, is all numbers are scaled down 50% from normal - This is because they didnt want to code in new CR versions of every mob when they added casual difficulty.. So
    Casual = Normal, minus 50% scaling. Thats it, there are no other changes from normal other then loot and xp differences.

    Normal and Hard will both be at roughly 100% with 4 party members, or 120% with 6. The very minor difference in solo scaling is negated upon adding party members.

    IMO this isn't good for the game, as it HEAVILY encourages soloing in all modes up to hard, and makes hard a TON easier to solo, tehn to group.

    EG:
    Disintegrate on epic hard solo (actual test, not theory, von1 kobold was used):
    158 damage when i rolled a 1 (I saved on 2, and should of saved on a 1 cuz i had the draconic thing, but thats for a different thread)
    Calc:
    40d3+120 at caster level 20 (capped, kobold was CR26ish iirc)
    = 200 average.
    Empower - +75% dmg
    200 x 1.75 = 350 average.
    We were at ~50% scaling due to solo, so 175 average. Kobold rolled a lil low.

    In a full group:
    200 x 1.75 = 350 average.
    Scaling will be 120% to 130% depending on classes (casters count for more)
    350 x 1.2 = 420 dmg average.
    Thats enough to 1 shot certain squishy classes..

    So solo: low risk of dying. Group: High risk of dying.
    Balanced and fun? No. Encourages players to solo in an mmo, thats not good design.

    Suggestion:
    Change epic scaling to:
    Solo: 80% (40% on casual due to half damage setup)
    2 man: 90%
    3 or more 100%. Hardcap it at 100%.

    Heroic could be the same for simplicity, or go 70/80/90/100 if you want it to be less.

  2. #2
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Lmao you noticed that too... I scroll up between every cast on epic elite.

    ... But I always knew dungeon scaling would be affecting epic just as it always has elite even though the dev's disclaim any large scaling it exists. The tailisman is a perfect way of testing small medium and full group scaling.

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  3. #3
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    Scaling needs to be removed in all non-normal content.
    Blind Faith

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  4. #4
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I'd be ok with scaling still in the game - but toned down. That change on the Talisman is amusing.



    It's also why I don't trust DR (say the FVS capstone or barb DR) quite as much. DR is scaled too, and that means it is unreliable. That's annoying.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  5. #5
    Community Member Keybreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Normal and Hard will both be at roughly 100% with 4 party members, or 120% with 6.
    Scaling should not be removed, and works as is. Soloing should be an option, from trivial solo casual to difficult solo elite (to extraordinary challenging solo epic).

    If each party member is contributing equally (not always a sound assumption I admit) then incoming 120% damage versus outgoing 600% damage seems more than enough encouragement to party.

    When elite streak TR'ing, the most efficient groups are 3-4 man parties. They can split up and parallel quest objectives and then combine fire for boss encounters. Soloing is actually a terribly inefficient way to level (except for a very small number of exceptional quests), so there's plenty of incentive to group already.

    Take for example Elite Weapons Shipment which seems to scale more than other quests.
    (1) Soloing is relatively easy if you are very competent and decently geared (ie Torq + Bramblecasters)
    (2) Full group of very competent and decently geared toons, even EASIER!
    (3) Full group of 5 pikers and one competent and decently geared toon, quite tough.

    These are extreme cases to make the point that IF everyone in the party is contributing, then it's ALWAYS easier to group together. The party can pack 600% of the DPS, and can watch each other's backs.

    IF there are pikers, or those contributing less, or squishy weak links, then scaling can make things more difficult than soloing (or duoing).

    Reducing or eliminating scaling is not promoting grouping. It's promoting piking. It's promoting mediocrity.

    Challenge yourself and grow as players and toons and seek higher challenges. Don't get in over your head then ask for nerfs.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    Scaling should not be removed, and works as is. Soloing should be an option, from trivial solo casual to difficult solo elite (to extraordinary challenging solo epic).

    If each party member is contributing equally (not always a sound assumption I admit) then incoming 120% damage versus outgoing 600% damage seems more than enough encouragement to party.

    When elite streak TR'ing, the most efficient groups are 3-4 man parties. They can split up and parallel quest objectives and then combine fire for boss encounters. Soloing is actually a terribly inefficient way to level (except for a very small number of exceptional quests), so there's plenty of incentive to group already.

    Take for example Elite Weapons Shipment which seems to scale more than other quests.
    (1) Soloing is relatively easy if you are very competent and decently geared (ie Torq + Bramblecasters)
    (2) Full group of very competent and decently geared toons, even EASIER!
    (3) Full group of 5 pikers and one competent and decently geared toon, quite tough.

    These are extreme cases to make the point that IF everyone in the party is contributing, then it's ALWAYS easier to group together. The party can pack 600% of the DPS, and can watch each other's backs.

    IF there are pikers, or those contributing less, or squishy weak links, then scaling can make things more difficult than soloing (or duoing).

    Reducing or eliminating scaling is not promoting grouping. It's promoting piking. It's promoting mediocrity.

    Challenge yourself and grow as players and toons and seek higher challenges. Don't get in over your head then ask for nerfs.

    You have this 100% completely bass ackwards.

    I'm not going to leave out my guildies ( IE skilled and geared players that I know) to do a quest and they will make it easier. But I will leave out Pugs (IE unknown players that have a +75% chance at being bad/undergeared/stupid) because they will make it harder. When devs want to encourage grouping, players should not be punished when deciding to open up an LFM, rather than 1, 2, or 3 manning it.

    And as far as your last statement, if scaling was removed soloing would actually BE challenging as opposed to the cakewake (-50% damage/hp mobs) that it is.
    Blind Faith

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  7. #7
    Community Member Sarisa's Avatar
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    Check Reaver's Refuge when you get a chance. On live, Reaver's Refuge quests (especially SoS) are hyperscaled, so a Twisted Talisman activation on my Cleric on a 6-person normal SoS deals 40 to me, while it deals 33 to me in a standard 6-person epic, or an elite Raid.

  8. #8
    Community Member Keybreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptGrim View Post
    I'm not going to leave out my guildies ( IE skilled and geared players that I know) to do a quest and they will make it easier. But I will leave out Pugs (IE unknown players that have a +75% chance at being bad/undergeared/stupid) because they will make it harder. When devs want to encourage grouping, players should not be punished when deciding to open up an LFM, rather than 1, 2, or 3 manning it.
    As I clearly stated in my post, there's already plenty of incentive to party - as long as everyone is contributing.

    Thanks for making my point. Bass.
    Keybreaker, Leader of Over Raided (Orien)

  9. #9
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    Nice idea on using Talisman to test scaling.

    100+ damage?!?! are you kidding me?

    Turbine, I get it. You want people to be able to solo. You don't want the rep as the game where you must party.

    The current Scaling in play is however stupid. Elite amrath, Challenges, various other quests are significantly easier to solo on the highest difficulties than to run with a full party.

    Fix this! I understand you have this awesome raid of awesome and don't want it to be trivialized by all the new gear/levels/EDs/power that we will have. Thats fine let the raid be ridiculous.

    Cap party size scaling and dump class based scaling. Even if you capped party scaling at 5 this would be an improvement. Scaling based on class is only fair to well built veteran played casters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    As I clearly stated in my post, there's already plenty of incentive to party - as long as everyone is contributing.

    Thanks for making my point. Bass.
    Your point was what? More guys do more damage? profound

    The game encourages people to solo or shortman content. When it should encourage grouping.

    If you want to solo on hard or elite it should be more difficult than if you have other players with you.

    If scaleing was removed you would have get better to solo hard or elite. I see you keep pushing this easy button and wonder how you can do that then write this;

    Challenge yourself and grow as players and toons and seek higher challenges. Don't get in over your head then ask for nerfs.
    Blind Faith

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  11. #11

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    How does reducing scaling improve the grouping experience?

    Really, it seems the presumption is that the decision is based over what's easiest (kind of a weak, inductive argument).
    I then assume that the 'logical' argument is that if soloing/low-manning was more difficult, those people who currently
    do that would suddenly decide to group? (rather than play another game).

    Difficulty is relative.

  12. #12
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post

    Suggestion:
    Change epic scaling to:
    Solo: 80% (40% on casual due to half damage setup)
    2 man: 90%
    3 or more 100%. Hardcap it at 100%.

    Heroic could be the same for simplicity, or go 70/80/90/100 if you want it to be less.
    While talking about this specific item, it should not scale at all. Description says 25, so 25 should be the magic number, not 24, not 26, but 25.

  13. #13
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    Take for example Elite Weapons Shipment which seems to scale more than other quests.
    (1) Soloing is relatively easy if you are very competent and decently geared (ie Torq + Bramblecasters)
    (2) Full group of very competent and decently geared toons, even EASIER!
    (3) Full group of 5 pikers and one competent and decently geared toon, quite tough.

    These are extreme cases to make the point that IF everyone in the party is contributing, then it's ALWAYS easier to group together. The party can pack 600% of the DPS, and can watch each other's backs.
    Nope. This means that I will only group for slightly harder epics with my guildmates, whom I know to be good players, or with other players that I also know to be decent. Accepting a group of 5 unknowns will make it so that if I have the bad luck of getting 5 very bad people, I'll be taking 2x the damage I would take if I went in solo for little gain, and I'll have to deal 1.5-2x damage to compensate, since I'll end up having to kill most of the stuff anyway while one of the other dudes is standing around, throwing magic missile and watching mobs laugh at him, which increases the chance I will have to use a pot. Why bother?

    Right now, the situation is as following: if I am in a group with 2 good people, and we want to do an epic, accepting any 3 people is beneficial, because it's invariably more damage and someone else to take the hits and hit back (not to mention one person that might pull an item you want but not need it)! On the edge case of a griefer that gets himself killed on purpose all the time, we can always grab his stone and 5-man the quest. Even a bad player is a positive contribution here. This encourages full LFMs for epic quests. Why 3-man eCoF on live (except if you want to show off and are crazy awesome, which I'm not) when 3 more players will up the outgoing damage to no negative compensation?

    Bottom line: scaling as-is encourages soloing and 2-manning quests. Please don't make the only setting where grouping is encouraged by the scaling or lack thereof (epic quests) trivial to solo. I want to be able to meet new people without making my chances of failing a quest bigger.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    While talking about this specific item, it should not scale at all. Description says 25, so 25 should be the magic number, not 24, not 26, but 25.
    You are absolutely right, except that I hope they don't as this is the best means for us to test scaling. Because time after time dev quotes on how much and when scaling occur are just flat out wrong.
    Blind Faith

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  15. #15
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knockcocker View Post
    Really, it seems the presumption is that the decision is based over what's easiest (kind of a weak, inductive argument).
    I then assume that the 'logical' argument is that if soloing/low-manning was more difficult, those people who currently
    do that would suddenly decide to group? (rather than play another game).
    I disagree very much with Shade in that heroic scaling should stay the same, as people have gotten used to it already, and it greatly benefits the player that doesn't know a lot of people, and it helps a newer player go through a quest the first time exploring and learnng it.

    The thing is, most people out there aren't soloing epics. Removing epic scaling won't make it more difficult. It will make it JUST AS HARD as it is currently on live.
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  16. #16
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    The scaling on trap/spell damage makes sense. Dying to a trap or stray disintegrate on a group is annoying, but not a big issue. Dying on a solo run usually means you have to start over.

    Crowd control duration also scales. A Power word:stun will last 2-4 seconds on a solo run, and a lot longer on a full group - same deal, the spells are supposed to burn your resources and put you at risk, not to always kill you.

    The one thing that doesn't scale, but I wish it did, is dispel effects. Most caster classes take a dispel effect as an annoyance - They are immune to neg levels/hold/command effects, or they can recast the deathward/fom/prot from evil as needed. People who rely on clickies/scrolls for these effects have a really hard time recovering from multiple dispels.

    Maybe add deathward/fom/prot from evil/displacement pots to the game? How come we can travel beyond the planes but can't get a wizard to brew lv20 displacement potions for us?


    All this beng said, elite difficulty should not scale at all. There are way too many situations where it's easier to solo on elite then to do on a full party on hard - ask any pale master who has done running with the devils. It cheapens the elite difficulty.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmnh View Post
    The scaling on trap/spell damage makes sense. Dying to a trap or stray disintegrate on a group is annoying, but not a big issue. Dying on a solo run usually means you have to start over.
    The Crucible says otherwise. Those five other people waiting on you to do the swim will be unable to help you when you get one shot due to scaling. Soloing you can get hit multiple times by spikes without dying.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The Crucible says otherwise. Those five other people waiting on you to do the swim will be unable to help you when you get one shot due to scaling. Soloing you can get hit multiple times by spikes without dying.
    So.. the scaling is doing exactly what it's supposed to do? What's your point, exactly?

    Soloing the crucible is possible without evasion by potting on every set of spikes. I don't like this - I wish that soloing this quest would take either insane skill or the right party.

    A group will usually have recitation/prayer/holy aura/greater heroism and maybe other buffs for the swimmer so that a single mistake is not enough to kill him. between improved evasion and the saves buffs, the swim is not that hard, unless the swimmer doesn't know what he's doing or the party doesn't bring the buffs to help him.
    Kmnh * Kmn * Kmm * Knn * Knm

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  19. #19

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    I'm not a fan of scaling in the first place.

    If someone wants to solo they already have the option of choosing easier difficulty levels or running quests a bit under their level. Scaling just seems like it was a pointless addition to the game.

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