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  1. #1
    Community Member Melcena's Avatar
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    Default The Racial Refinement

    As I have been playing these last few days, I decided that I was going to create my first real major discussion. It’s long overdue, considering how long I have been around, but I felt that I might as well start somewhere.

    As I am sure many of you are aware, each race in DDO has their own racial refinements. However, as I look over many of the racial modifiers and wonder, I realize that in the end, many of these racial abilities never seem to mean anything for most people. They seem geared towards specific causes. Back in the days of the table top games, when you chose your race, you had far more useful abilities then what we have now. I look forward to the enhancement changes in the future, but a part of me wonders what things would be like if things became even more malleable than what they are now. For now, I’ll just settle for discussing the races and talking about turning these racial abilities into actual benefits. Each race has its own subrace, and I think that many of these subraces would make for interesting racial “prestiges” to use DDO terminology. Honestly, I think it would be a wonderful day when people are discussing builds, and no longer do we refer to ourselves as a simple “Horc Barb” or an “Elf Ranger” and we started actually become more refined. Instead, calling themselves a “Half Elf Valenar Ranger” or what have you. Every day, I’m going to try and put out a few more subraces and talk about what they might look like as a racial prestige.

    Elven Subraces

    Valenar- The Valenar elves are the more barbaric cousins to the Aerenal. To them, it’s a rather simple choice of habitat between the Blade Desert or the Jungles. Simple choice, right? Ironically, they are arguably the most dangerous force on Eberron, their ranks being composed of the best light cavalry and mercenaries. To make matters more interesting, they view battle as an art. Their favored weapons are the Scimitar and the Double Scimitar. Their most notable group however, are the Keepers of the Past, who, armed with double scimitars, are their greatest warriors and clerics. Many of the elves that live in the jungles on the southern tip of the continent, moreover, have become so attuned to the land, and so overprotective, that they have become rather dangerous, being able to trap enemies in living vine.

    Aerenal- A small island nation that the elves fled to after defeating the giants, long ago they gave up most forms of fighting in favor for learning magic that used to belong to the giants. Their favored weapon is the longsword, however they rarely need it, instead relying on their vast knowledge of magic. Most are mages of varying skill; however they all focus on practical magic, knowing many particular spells to help them in their daily life. Their goal in life is to one day become great enough to join the Deathless, which are undead that instead draw their power from Irian, rather than Mabar. Deathless have the following traits; 12-sided hit dice; have no constitution scores; have darkvision; are immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and mind-affecting charms and abilities; are immune to critical hits, non-lethal damage, energy drains, ability drains, fatigue and exhaustion; and are destroyed when they reach 0 hit points; amongst other characteristics. Sound familiar certain other types of forms that exists?
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  2. #2
    Community Member Melcena's Avatar
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    Default Subracial Prestiges

    Subracial Prestige Possibilities

    Valenar- Tier One- +1 Attack and Damage with Scimitars, 10% Natural Striding bonus. Tier 2- +1 Attack and Damage with Scimitars, Wisdom Based Earthgrab (only with vines. You know, like assassinate. DC=10+Level+Wis mod). Tier 3- +1 Attack and Damage with Scimitars, Elf Raise Dead ability, 10% Natural Striding bonus.

    Aerenal- Tier One- +1 Attack and Damage with Longswords, Elven Arcanum II enhancement. Tier 2- Elven Arcanum IV, 2 SLAs (Something like Knock, Detect Secret Doors. Noncombatant spells, but still useful.). Tier 3- Deathless Form (Poison Immunity, Sleep Immunity, Paralysis Immunity, Stunning Immunity, Disease Immunity, Death Effects, and mind-affecting charms and abilities; are immune to critical hits, non-lethal damage, energy drains, ability drains, fatigue and exhaustion; and are destroyed when they reach 0 hit points. They are also healed by positive energy, and harmed by negative energy, much like every other normal person.), 1 or two positive damage SLAs (Searing light, sunburst, etc, etc.)
    Last edited by Melcena; 06-15-2012 at 02:32 AM.
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  3. #3
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Default +1 to you sir

    Elves have been neglected since they have a base start of 6 constitution. I do agree, that they need a buff.

    I have both of those types of elves. A "Valenar Crusader" build and a fancy 12/6/2 Ranger Monk Longsword Fighter. How much I want those upgrades, it would make my characters beyond powerful. I'm going to have to say no on those.

    "...are immune to critical hits, non-lethal damage, energy drains, ability drains, fatigue and exhaustion..." This makes my ranger really happy. Longsword Whirling steel strike user. It would be super fun to build under these circumstances

    Side note: I know how DDO says elves(valenar) use scimitars as their main weapons, but why do the majority of drows use them? On the top of my head, "Demon Stone" and DDO-Lords of Dust, the drows favor scimitars. What's with that?
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  4. #4
    Community Member ka0t1c1sm's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    Side note: I know how DDO says elves(valenar) use scimitars as their main weapons, but why do the majority of drows use them? On the top of my head, "Demon Stone" and DDO-Lords of Dust, the drows favor scimitars. What's with that?
    Because of this.

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    I think all kind of elves could get HEALING AMP, elves are considered the most mystical race, even not being the toughest, they deal better than any other race with any spell source, arcane or divine. Its simple, allow any race to get heal amp and human/elfs/Dwarves to get full HAMP, I don't think a warforged could get better Hamp then a elf, why? Simple, WARF are made from DEAD WOOD and METAL, sure, now they are considered "LIVING CONSTRUCTS" but we must not forget they have 2 sources of healing, ARCANE AND DIVINE, try to cast a reconstruct on a fleshie and see what happens... unless they are Art it simple don't work...
    Improving HAMP on Elves/Drows could make the race Very, very viable to play, and could be another step to make the race competitive with any other races.

  6. #6
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    People who look at elven con as a detriment really do not understand how to build elves into something... They were actually the easiest to build twf and ranged characters around and the con detriment offset by the cheaper dex ... build up and compensate for the weak attribute and the strong attribute pretty much took care of itself. However, they and human took a large hit with introduction of helf.

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  7. #7
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ka0t1c1sm View Post
    Because of this.

    Demon Stone
    Exactly who I had in mind. I totally forgot his name.
    On that topic-there's an half elf, half drow character. DDO should have half elf/drow on the creation option would be really interesting.
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  8. #8
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    I'm with Keith Baker on this one: Eberron doesn't really need a myriad of mechanically different subraces. The distinguishing feature of groups is culture, not different stat bonuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    Side note: I know how DDO says elves(valenar) use scimitars as their main weapons, but why do the majority of drows use them? On the top of my head, "Demon Stone" and DDO-Lords of Dust, the drows favor scimitars. What's with that?
    Eberron Drow are very different from FR Drow. Likewise Eberron Elves are generally different from Forgotten realms elves. The scimitar-wielding Drow is a Forgotten Realms thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by miguelxp View Post
    I think all kind of elves could get HEALING AMP, elves are considered the most mystical race, even not being the toughest, they deal better than any other race with any spell source, arcane or divine. Its simple, allow any race to get heal amp and human/elfs/Dwarves to get full HAMP, .
    Humans are generally regarded as the most vivacious of the races. Elves might have the edge in terms on manipulating arcane magic, but I don't think that there is much evidence for them to recieve the greatest benefit from divine healing. Particularly since two out of the three main elf cultures are based on the worship of the dead. :-)

    I don't think a warforged could get better Hamp then a elf, why? Simple, WARF are made from DEAD WOOD and METAL, sure, now they are considered "LIVING CONSTRUCTS" but we must not forget they have 2 sources of healing, ARCANE AND DIVINE, try to cast a reconstruct on a fleshie and see what happens... unless they are Art it simple don't work...
    Warforged can't get better HAMP than an elf: Even with a lot of points spent on the ability, they are still healed less than an elf with none. Even at less effectiveness, warforged still get some good from healing spells though: they are made of living wood after all.

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    Default Right...

    Well, we are talking about balance the game online, thats far different than pnp version, NO HEAL AMP, you are right, elves are better in magic and human on adaptation it works fine on pnp but in an online game the main thing is aways balance wich in ddo do not exist, show me where is in pnp book the HELF race is so powerful, i can show you some books, or even references that treat drow like one of the most dungerous race in any campaign set. some pnp races ain ddo receive a lot buffs and free races should be competitive as well. Thats my viewpoint. All races should be treated equally and racial enhaces could be a begining the heal amp thing I sugested was to make things less painfull for some builds or even make viable using elf or drow in al classes.

  10. #10
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I honestly wouldn't mind if Turbine took a hint from Pathfinder and gave all races an additional +2 in a stat (with humans, and half elves getting to choose which stat gets a +2 -- wouldn't work for Half Orc because Pathfinder Horc has the same stat spread as humans and half elves, but gets different racial abilities. The idea is that all races have a +2 total bonus, whereas currently they're designed to have every bonus offset by a negative)

    Elves could get +2 Int...
    Dwarves could get +2 Wis...
    Halflings (and in the future, Gnomes) could get +2 Cha... (Suddenly, halfling sorcerers everything)
    Drow could get... um...
    Perhaps Half Orcs could choose which stat penalty to ignore? I dunno.
    Warforged could get +2 Str... and I suppose we'll count fortification as a stat in and of itself so that it comes out ahead.

    The reason I like Pathfinder's stat spread is because it gives each race multiple options - you can have an elf that specializes in Wizard (as opposed to how it was in 3.5 where an elf could multiclass into Wizard with no EXP penalties, and that was their sole advantage) or an elf that specializes in being a ranger/finesse fighter.

    Or a dwarf that specializes in divine casting, or a dwarf that focuses in taking hits.

    Or a halfling that focuses in agile pursuits, or can sing a song grandly.

    Or... etc.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    I honestly wouldn't mind if Turbine took a hint from Pathfinder and gave all races an additional +2 in a stat (with humans, and half elves getting to choose which stat gets a +2 -- wouldn't work for Half Orc because Pathfinder Horc has the same stat spread as humans and half elves, but gets different racial abilities. The idea is that all races have a +2 total bonus, whereas currently they're designed to have every bonus offset by a negative)

    Elves could get +2 Int...
    Dwarves could get +2 Wis...
    Halflings (and in the future, Gnomes) could get +2 Cha... (Suddenly, halfling sorcerers everything)
    Drow could get... um...
    Perhaps Half Orcs could choose which stat penalty to ignore? I dunno.
    Warforged could get +2 Str... and I suppose we'll count fortification as a stat in and of itself so that it comes out ahead.

    The reason I like Pathfinder's stat spread is because it gives each race multiple options - you can have an elf that specializes in Wizard (as opposed to how it was in 3.5 where an elf could multiclass into Wizard with no EXP penalties, and that was their sole advantage) or an elf that specializes in being a ranger/finesse fighter.

    Or a dwarf that specializes in divine casting, or a dwarf that focuses in taking hits.

    Or a halfling that focuses in agile pursuits, or can sing a song grandly.

    Or... etc.
    Dwarves should always be a con race

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  12. #12
    Community Member fyrst.grok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miguelxp View Post
    I think all kind of elves could get HEALING AMP, elves are considered the most mystical race, even not being the toughest, they deal better than any other race with any spell source, arcane or divine. Its simple, allow any race to get heal amp and human/elfs/Dwarves to get full HAMP, I don't think a warforged could get better Hamp then a elf, why? Simple, WARF are made from DEAD WOOD and METAL, sure, now they are considered "LIVING CONSTRUCTS" but we must not forget they have 2 sources of healing, ARCANE AND DIVINE, try to cast a reconstruct on a fleshie and see what happens... unless they are Art it simple don't work...
    Improving HAMP on Elves/Drows could make the race Very, very viable to play, and could be another step to make the race competitive with any other races.

    No.. They should NOT get better HAmp than others.. They have less HP anyway

    They should however have a whirling tempest racial pre for valenar elves as these are feared ambush warriors in the Eberron lore.

  13. #13
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrst.grok View Post
    No.. They should NOT get better HAmp than others.. They have less HP anyway

    They should however have a whirling tempest racial pre for valenar elves as these are feared ambush warriors in the Eberron lore.
    Wasn't drow getting the Tempest bonus in U15? Poor drows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Dwarves should always be a con race
    I believe the stat spread in Pathfinder for Dwarves is +2 Con +2 Wisdom -2 Charisma... which isn't bad.

    Humans half elves and half orcs get a +2 to any single stat

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    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    I had a few Elf ideas a while back. Of course with the new Enhancement System coming in the next few months the spread and points are a little unnecessary but this was the general idea from last year.


    Elf Ideas


    Aerenal Weapon Mastery (combined lines into regional lines)

    1. lvl 4. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers
    2. lvl 8. 2AP. +1 To Hit with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers
    3. lvl 12. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers
    4. lvl 16. 2AP. +1 To Hit with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers
    5. lvl 20. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers

    total +2 To Hit +3 Damage with Bows, Longswords and Rapiers


    Valenar Weapon Mastery


    1. lvl 4. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows and Scimitars, and +2 Damage with Falchions
    2. lvl 8. 2AP. +1 To Hit with Bows, Scimitars and Falchions
    3. lvl 12. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows and Scimitars, and +2 Damage with Falchions
    4. lvl 16. 2AP. +1 To Hit with Bows, Scimitars and Falchions
    5. lvl 20. 2AP. +1 Damage with Bows and Scimitars, and +2 Damage with Falchions

    total +2 To Hit +3 Damage with Bows and Scimitars, and +6 Damage with Falchions


    Valenar Dervish
    Requires Weapon Finesse Feat and Valenar Weapon Mastery 1

    1. lvl 6. 4AP. Scimitar counts as a Finesse Weapon


    Aerenal Ascetic
    Requires Whirling Steel Strike and Aerenal Weapon Mastery 1

    1. lvl 4. 2AP. +1 Damage and +1 Ki per Critical with Longswords while Centered
    2. lvl 7. 2AP. +1 Attack and +2% Double Strike Chance with Longswords while Centered
    3. lvl 10. 2AP. +1 Damage and +1 Ki per Critical with Longswords while Centered
    4. lvl 14. 2AP. +1 Attack and +2% Double Strike Chance with Longswords while Centered
    5. lvl 17. 2AP. +1 Damage and +1 Ki per Critical with Longswords while Centered

    total +2 Attack, +4% Double Strike, +3 Damage, +3 Ki on Critical

    Aerenal Sword Master
    Cost: 4AP
    Requires: Aerenal Ascetic 5 , Character level 20
    Benefit: 3% Double Strike chance with Long Swords and Off Hand Long Swords use full Strength Modifier for Damage


    Elven Finesse

    1. lvl 8. AP 2. Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse Feat, Elven Dexterity 1. Benefit: +2% Double Strike Chance.
    2. lvl 16. AP 4. Prerequisite: Elven Finesse 1, Elven Dexterity 2. Benefit: +3% Double Strike Chance. (total +5%)


    Valenar Great Weapon Mastery
    note: this only applies to the Falchion
    Requires: Valenar Weapon Mastery 1

    1. lvl 1. 2AP. Weapon effects activate 2.5% more often
    2. lvl 4. 2AP. Glancing Blows do 5% More damage
    3. lvl 7. 2AP. Weapon effects activate 2.5% more often
    4. lvl 10. 2AP. Glancing Blows do 5% More damage
    5. lvl 13. 2AP. Weapon effects activate 2.5% more often
    6. lvl 16. 2AP. Glancing Blows do 5% More damage
    7. lvl 19. 2AP. Weapon effects activate 2.5% more often

    total of 15% more Glancing Blow Damage and 10% more often that Weapon Effects activate.


    Elven Deadeye

    1. lvl 6. 2AP. Improve Point Blank Shot range by 5m and +1 stacking Seeker with Bows
    2. lvl 12. 2AP. Improve Point Blank Shot range by 5m and +1 stacking Seeker with Bows
    3. lvl 18. 2AP. Improve Point Blank Shot range by 5m and +1 stacking Seeker with Bows

    total +15m to Point Blank Shot range and +3 stacking Seeker Bonus


    Elven Arcanum

    1. Wizard 1. 1AP. +20SP
    2. Wizard 4. 1AP. +1 Spell Penetration
    3. Wizard 7. 1AP. +20SP
    4. Wizard 10. 1AP. +1 Arcane Spell DC
    5. Wizard 13. 1AP. +20SP
    6. Wizard 16. 1AP. +1 Spell Penetration
    7. Wizard 19. 1AP. +20SP

    total +80SP, +2 Spell Penetration, +1 Arcane Spell DC


    Elven Arcane Grace

    1. lvl 4. 1AP. -5% Arcane Spell Failure
    2. lvl 8. 1AP. +1 Max Dexterity Bonus
    3. lvl 12. 1AP. -5% Arcane Spell Failure
    4. lvl 16. 1AP. +1 Max Dexterity Bonus
    5. lvl 20. 1AP. -5% Arcane Spell Failure



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  16. #16
    Community Member fyrst.grok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    Wasn't drow getting the Tempest bonus in U15? Poor drows.
    Yes.. But thats an entirely different case of nauseating wanna be Drizzt syndrome.
    I swear that alone made me consider leaving the game.. Bugs and nerfs I can deal with.. But whiny emo swordslingers.. Ugh!

    In Eberron drow are either slaves of the fire giants or acrobatic savages as far as i know from the books.. Don't remember seeing them anywhere else.. Personally I think drow should get acrobat (which should be buffed btw)

  17. #17
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Dwarves should always be a con race
    That's in addition to constitution, silly :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrst.grok View Post
    In Eberron drow are either slaves of the fire giants or acrobatic savages as far as i know from the books.. Don't remember seeing them anywhere else.. Personally I think drow should get acrobat (which should be buffed btw)
    I'd say that Ranger is probably their most prevalent class (lightly armoured wilderness hunters with specifically hated foes). However I think Deepwood Sniper might be a more fitting PrE than Tempest, particularly if it worked with thrown weapons.

    Of course that would require it to be a working PrE first. :-(

    If you're thinking of the Drow in the Dreaming Dark books by Keith Baker, I think she was a Monk. Ninja Spy might work, but the word: "ninja" has connotations that might cause confusion. Eberron ninja are goblin, not Drow. :-)

  19. #19
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Great thread OP! Elves can definitely use a little boost, as we all know. Every so often I consider remaking an elven lightly armored, dragonmarked melee (I have one that I no longer play), but from an Elven melee perspective there are two major issues IMHO:

    Healing Amp
    With so many ways to get bonus hit points now with the new Epic Destinies I feel that the loss of 20HP from having a lower starting con is just not as much of a concern. However, not having access to a healing amp enhancement line is a big hit. If you go human or HElf you can spend 6APs for 20% healing amp, but as an elf you simply don't have access to this. So Elves should get a healing amp enhancement line of some sort, even if it isn't as strong as the human / HElf line.

    Dragonmark Feats
    The advantage for an Elven melee is the elven displacement dragonmarks. However to make the Elven Displacement Dragonmark work, you really need to invest in 3 feats: Least & Lesser Dragonmarks of Shadow plus Extend. That's pretty expensive for an ability that primarily helps you against lots of trash mobs, but does NOTHING against big red named monsters that have true seeing. This is the reason that I stopped playing my elven tempest ranger...I don't suggest changing how displacement works, but I'd heard that the developers were considering to make the dragonmark feats into just 1 feat with an enhancement line. That would be helpful.
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    Its not just the lower Constitution that lower hit points, its the fewer Toughness enhancements available. That makes more of a difference. I still don't see healing Amp as an elven thing. Maybe they should give it levels for all races like toughness enhancements, with humans (and perhaps halflings) having the most, but elves still getting some.

    Hopefully one of the reasons that they made displacement self only was so that they won't have to put true seeing on all their bosses now.

    As to a way of bringing elves up to popularity, but staying in concept, how about a "channelling ancestor" set of lines that would allow the character to operate above their character level for a period of time. Boosting saves, skills, BAB, caster level for a while?

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