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  1. #1
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Default Honesty and Civility

    Well, I joined a PUG Shroud last night on normal (about 11 pm PST). The group organizer indicated he was still new and had only made 4 runs of the Shroud so far. When we finally filled, we went in. A couple of us more experienced players asked if anyone else was new, and only the aforementioned person mentioned his experience level. Part 1 went fine, Part 2 took three tries.

    After seeing this, I decided to get on voice and start to get this thing organized (I also typed in to check if someone could not hear voice). We asked for anyone who did not know how to do the puzzle to say something or dance at the door. It ended up that the N 5x5 person asked if he could get help after about 4 minutes in part 3, and the SE 5x5 person never said anything. We got rainbowed and I eventually just broke crystals to advance the raid after discussing this with the others in the group.

    Needless to say, we ended up wiping on Part 4. I got worried when one of the FVS almost died from the scouts (he/she waited about 6 seconds to heal themselves from about 40 hp). The two FVS (about 2300 and 2500 sp) died in rounds 1 of 2, respectively, of part 4. After those rounds, the vets were left and I asked the bard if he could heal the remainder. He said that he had been throwing most of the heals the whole time (O.O).

    I was the only 1 left at the end of round 3 and ended up not being able to take Harry down due to my stupidity (accidentally dragged the quickened reconstruct out of my hotbar during the fight). Even if I hadn't done that, I doubt I could have done it anyway.

    The wipe didn’t bother me (I actually wanted to see if I could take Harry’s final 10% down on my own, out of morbid curiosity). It was actually a weirdly entertaining run in that I wanted to see if a few vets could beat a normal shroud while carrying the rest of the group over the finish line. But two things do bother me:

    - New people should speak up if they are new. Don’t be shy/scared and end up getting the group wiped.
    - Some vets need to chill out a bit. I know it can be irritating in groups when the leader explains the next phase to someone, even if no one says they are new. But, if it is clear that some are new and are not saying so, it still helps the party. More to the point, lets us vets reinforce to the dirtbags of the game to be nice to the new players. Yes new players are not as good/well geared, yes they have to be carried sometimes, and yes they can be stupid. But berating the new players openly does nothing but encourage the first bullet point. Unfortunately I have seen way too much of this in PUG’s.
    Last edited by dirtphillips; 06-14-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Keybreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post
    Some vets need to chill out a bit. I know it can be irritating in groups when the leader explains the next phase to someone, even if no one says they are new.
    I only explain the raid if someone is new. But assuming there is someone new/unfamiliar, do people really get vocally annoyed?

    Those who've pugged with me in the past know that I do 'splain things (sometimes in excruciating detail)... Plenty of people might have been annoyed, but no one ever said anything, not even the "vets" who I know are elitists. (I know them very well, some are now guildies.) I don't pug regularly any more, but is this a real issue these days on Orien?
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  3. #3
    Community Member Cauthey's Avatar
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    It sounds as though you may have been dealing with a language barrier issue. It may have been that those that were new to The Shroud weren't answering or were not following directions because they could not understand them.

    I try to be patient in these cases, and often will try and observe guild tags on those that are quietly doing their part. If they look like non-English guild tags, then that is usually the conclusion I come to.
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  4. #4
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    I will get mad at someone if I ask "any questions?" three times, no one says anything. I will get mad at someone if I explain a raid four times, and then people do what I told them not to do. I will get mad if I say "hear voice, speak fluent English" and someone joins who speaks only Spanish/German and does not hear voice. I will get mad if I wipe a normal Shroud because people are being stupid.

    I'm sorry, but there is no excuse to wipe raids on normal at this stage in DDO in my opinion. When I explain to you how a raid will go, when I tell you what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and you don't do it, then I will be very annoyed. My time on DDO is getting more and more limited as I get older, and my patience is becoming essentially non existent. I mean, when I say nine times "don't kill the puppies" as does everyone else in the raid, and the first thing that 208 hp caster with 1600 sp does is PWK a dog, then FoD another one, I get ****ed.

    I can be patient with new, under geared players. I can be patient with people who are slower than me due to a lack of knowledge. I have no patience or mercy for stupid players who won't, or can't read and listen.

  5. #5
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    I have had people ask why I am explaining something when no one said they were new in other Shrouds (not this one, though). I have also seen more than one post on the forums complaining about "excessive explanations". Its a matter of degree on that, I admit.

    I had not thought of the language barrier. I will have to look up the malaysian and tagalog phrases for "do you speak english", since i have seen malaysian and filipino players on during my time frame.

    Var, dude, chill. Yeah, I'm getting old and I value the time the warden allows me on DDO. But, try to be civil if you do get aggravated.
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  6. #6
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Nevermind, I misread something.
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 06-14-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Cauthey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post
    I had not thought of the language barrier. I will have to look up the malaysian and tagalog phrases for "do you speak english", since i have seen malaysian and filipino players on during my time frame.
    I didn't realize we had Malaysian and Filipino players on Orien. Neat!

    I am aware of a rather large Latin population, and have partied with Brazilians and Chileans. The Chile folks were cool. The Shroud I ran with them was about half-Chilean, and half English speakers. It was a lot of fun because we were attempting to cross the language barrier, and everyone in the raid was being patient and trying their best to speak and type in a fashion that everyone else could understand. It was quite fun!
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  8. #8
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    I have grouped with Malaysians before, but it has been probably 6 months since I have. The Filipino comment was a guess. I suppose I could have said Japanese or Korean also. I have played with Aussies before and was just trying to think of other countries in a similar time zone with non-English speakers.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keybreaker View Post
    I only explain the raid if someone is new. But assuming there is someone new/unfamiliar, do people really get vocally annoyed?

    Those who've pugged with me in the past know that I do 'splain things (sometimes in excruciating detail)... Plenty of people might have been annoyed, but no one ever said anything, not even the "vets" who I know are elitists. (I know them very well, some are now guildies.) I don't pug regularly any more, but is this a real issue these days on Orien?
    Absolutely, it is.

    I've seen veteran players just up and /ragequit in a Shroud if the leader (or whoever is running things- not always the same person) is explaining things in, as you say, "excruciating detail". It never bothers me to hear someone reiterate the "rules", even if I've heard them over 100 times. But, for good or ill, I am not "everyone". I really do think that there are some players who have been playing so long that they have forgotten what it was like to be a newcomer......though I suspect that the new Epics will provide a much needed slice of humble pie.

  10. #10

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    I heard about this run. When the rainbow starts appearing, then something is going wrong in part 3. In the case of puzzles, there seems to be some very common problems here which are (this is a guess based on memories of failing part 3):
    1) people not admitting that they had a problem with solving puzzles - (it sounds like the person who waited 4 minutes might have been trying to do it and had problems) people will often be more honest about needing help if there is someone (usually a veteran) says that they "love" to do the puzzle, so please say something and let them have fun. In my case, I actually like to solve the puzzle and when i am on a toon that can open doors, will actively seek puzzles to solve.
    2) Veterans not being proactive in watering and checking up on people - if you have finished the puzzle, people should get in the habit of grabbing a water and then going watering a puzzle AND once they do one, REPEAT. The blades do not hurt enough that anyone has an excuse to sit around and wait for others to do their "job". You should want to succeed quickly, and if that requires you to run multiple water, you should be eager to do so. The added benefit of running around with a water - is that if you still see a puzzle undone, you can start asking questions about that one person - and if they don't respond or are not actively solving the puzzle - get in there and get it done.
    3) Unlockers - if the people that are able to unlock, don't proactively knock/pick doors of unfinished puzzle / search out rooms where people may be having a problem, another person can't get in to help even if they wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post
    We asked for anyone who did not know how to do the puzzle to say something or dance at the door. It ended up that the N 5x5 person asked if he could get help after about 4 minutes in part 3, and the SE 5x5 person never said anything. We got rainbowed and I eventually just broke crystals to advance the raid after discussing this with the others in the group.

    But two things do bother me:

    - New people should speak up if they are new. Don’t be shy/scared and end up getting the group wiped.
    - Some vets need to chill out a bit. I know it can be irritating in groups when the leader explains the next phase to someone, even if no one says they are new. But, if it is clear that some are new and are not saying so, it still helps the party. More to the point, lets us vets reinforce to the dirtbags of the game to be nice to the new players. Yes new players are not as good/well geared, yes they have to be carried sometimes, and yes they can be stupid. But berating the new players openly does nothing but encourage the first bullet point. Unfortunately I have seen way too much of this in PUG’s.
    I think your first point is very good, if people speak up - things are a lot better - voice is not required - communication is.

    You are also correct with people need to chill out - however the leader should also be concise with their explanation. I can think of one particular player that takes way too much time in the explanation, this can cause people to tune them out - even those that are the most likely to need the information.

    Berating players also don't really help - even offering valid and civil suggestions are often ignored
    It sounded like the fvs likely needed a bit of help to be better healers - who knows, they might not have had fortification, experience and/or quicken any one of which would make shroud very difficult.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Keybreaker's Avatar
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    nvm
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  12. #12
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Just, you are correct, there were serious problems with part 3. About 6 folks stood in the middle, even after they were asked to run water. I had to bust all 3 crystals when 3 others were standing there just watching just to open the middle. Several of us ran water to multiple fountains, but the 5x5’s not being done was a killer. Even so, we could have saved part 3 if the others would have run water and those in the 5x5’s would have said something right away. Heck, I could have done both of them before the rainbow and I still have to use the stupid solver for 5x5’s. You have it nailed in that it comes down to communication. The sad part is that I am only a mediocre player who has ridden the coattails of much better players in the past in other shrouds. It lets me know just how far I am from really good players.

    With regard to the FvS, it wasn’t clear that heals were a problem until part 4 had started. Had I known, I would have explained more or at least asked more questions. I agree, if they are undergeared, I am absolutely willing to offer advice or even craft stuff. In the last 3 months I have personally crafted two new people (who I had never met before) to the shroud their own Cannith boss beaters after their first run when they let me know they did not know about boss beaters or understand DR. I did ask for whatever essences they could spare (not much), but that’s it. One bought their own silver weapon at the AH, I sold a silver I had in my inventory to the 2nd guy for 5k, I think. Granted, the crafted weps were silver Holy of lesser LOB, but it would be a decent enough Harry Beater until they got a min II or EAG. This game desperately needs new players to become involved and want to stay involved for it to continue to succeed.

    Lord, to piggy back on your experience a little, I had a woman about 3 months ago (FvS) thank me by tells after a shroud run that I led where I did walk new people through each part. She appreciated the explanation of each part, but she didn't want to openly ask about it in party chat. She indicated that she did not want to go on voice because she was a “girl” and didn’t want to deal with the hassle of being treated like a noob, even though she really was new. Whether that was just her perception or if it was based on past treatment, I have no idea. But she felt that way and it affected her willingness to be honest. I wanted to post this to the forums so that the really good players (in skill/gear/prestige) could try to affect some change with the vet players that cause these problems. I don’t mind the polite rebuttal of this nonsense, but since my toons are not as uber as those who have seen do it, it doesn’t appear to carry much weight. I know we’ll always have the jerks that have to cut others down to make themselves feel better, but if we as the rest of the player base go out of our way to be helpful and openly contradict that nonsense when it happens, the new players are more likely to stick around.
    Last edited by dirtphillips; 06-14-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post

    Var, dude, chill. Yeah, I'm getting old and I value the time the warden allows me on DDO. But, try to be civil if you do get aggravated.
    I've never raged at someone in person. I've complained in guild chat and to friends, but I've never yelled at someone, even if they deserved it.

  14. #14
    Community Member dirtphillips's Avatar
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    Sorry Var, I made a supposition that was clearly not correct. I just want us old folks to last longer by not stressing our tickers.
    Last edited by dirtphillips; 06-14-2012 at 10:33 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Cauthey's Avatar
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    I might be one of those that go into excrutiating detail. I can't help it - I'm often very verbose. I will have to let others judge me as to whether or not I'm verbose to a painful degree. :P

    However, I also try to be concise, because I don't like wasting other peoples' fun time.

    Still, it is my believe that more communication is always superior to less communication. And as others have stated, while some don't care or don't appreciate it, there are often timid newbs out there that are just entering the raiding scene that are afraid to speak up. And, I know that those guys really appreciate a bit of a walkthrough.

    I, too, have gotten private tells from folks thanking me for my excrutiating detail. I've never had anyone /ragequit on me for talking too much. Though, I have gotten tells saying "blah blah blah, lets go" on only a couple of rare occasions. *shrug*
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post
    I had not thought of the language barrier. I will have to look up the malaysian and tagalog phrases for "do you speak english", since i have seen malaysian and filipino players on during my time frame.
    Well, I'm malaysian but I play on Argo - I joined a mostly singaporean-guild. I know there are some malaysian scattered on khyber, but this is the first sighting I've heard of in orien.

    By the way, most malaysian and filipinos should be able to speak/understand English as a second language, particularly if they play this game. Some of them might not be proficient in listening, since you guys have typically different accents/speed of talking. Perhaps typing out can help. Or maybe you can just try some variations of, "can you understand english etc?", but I really doubt that "language barrier" is the main problem here.

  17. #17
    Community Member ResEvil6370's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtphillips View Post
    - Some vets need to chill out a bit.
    I think all you expect from anyone, be they ub or noob is that they follow instruction. After all this is an adult game, and imo there's a degree of expection when it comes to following instructions...someone not knowing what to do isnt half as frustrating as some being told what to do and not complying.

    Dont get me wrong though, there's plenty of Dbags out there, but for the most part, I believe vets give adequate patience and instruction to those who listen.

    Like your shroud part 3 example - "if you dont know your puzzle type out size and location and someone will come and help" - simple instruction (got nothing to do with class/level/gear - just person playing) - someone that takes 4 or 5 mins to say they dont know it arent 'new' nor do they require leniency; they just refused to listen and follow instruction and its this that personally draws my frustration.

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  18. #18
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Red face Been there, done that.

    I always put "Must hear voice and follow instructions." I play mostly healers, and just do not have time to TYPE instructions in most raids. I mean, would you rather I watch your red bar and keep healing, or type instructions to the folks who can't understand me? I ask if anyone is new, and if they are, I assign a buddy for them to stay with and give lots of instructions. If no one says they are new, I give the bare minimum. In Shroud 3, as soon as I get water, I start running and ask questions if doors are still closed: "You got this so-and so?" "you need help there?" If I see people standing in the center, I tell them to grab water and go find unwatered puzzles. For other raids, I have a minimum hp requirement. There are ways for the vets to stay sane during raids with newer players. Without losing their cool. I have not quite mastered the last part yet, but I am getting better as I learn how to filter out people who are having trouble with my accent before the raid starts. (I ask verbal questions to see if they hear/understand.)
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