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  1. #1
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    Default How awful are thrower builds?

    Please note, the question isn't are they bad, it's how much DPS they give up over other ranged builds. I imagine Shuriken expertise is at least mildly helpful now if you get your dex in your 30s and your per attack bonus damage is at least 30% higher than the difference between a shuriken's base damage and that of a different ranged weapon. (Actually... this last bit can't be too hard.)

    I just can't figure out the difference in attack speeds between repeaters, bows, and thrown weapons given all the feats and special abilities that impact them.

  2. #2
    Community Member captain1z's Avatar
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    I remember there was this one guy (just one guy) on ghallanda, who had a halfling fighter and did not carry a melee weapon of any sort. He started his own groups, welcomed anyone, was very patient and one of the nicest guys ive ever grouped with. He was also very well versed on most quests. That said, his character was terribly gimped. No one on the server seemed to mind because he was a great guy but his character, in gianthold at 16th level, was subpar to say the least.

    Throwing, even at a boosted rate, suffers not only from a low dice cap (best is handaxe at 1D6). It also has the most ignored weapon group in the loot tables. The 2 best throwing weapons i can think of are a vorpal shuriken and a dwarven thrower, maybe a paralyzer.

    Expect to be mocked, expect to kite a lot but if you have high umd, the character would not be without redeeming value.
    Ever bleed out in a thornbush? Welcome to UD14.

  3. #3
    Community Member captain1z's Avatar
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    As an aside, manyshot makes bows more valueable. Repeaters have permanent manyshot, low crit ranges but no strength bonus. None of the above applies to thrown last i checked, which was over a year ago, so my knoweldge may be dated.
    Ever bleed out in a thornbush? Welcome to UD14.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain1z View Post
    I remember there was this one guy (just one guy) on ghallanda, who had a halfling fighter and did not carry a melee weapon of any sort. He started his own groups, welcomed anyone, was very patient and one of the nicest guys ive ever grouped with. He was also very well versed on most quests. That said, his character was terribly gimped. No one on the server seemed to mind because he was a great guy but his character, in gianthold at 16th level, was subpar to say the least.

    Throwing, even at a boosted rate, suffers not only from a low dice cap (best is handaxe at 1D6). It also has the most ignored weapon group in the loot tables. The 2 best throwing weapons i can think of are a vorpal shuriken and a dwarven thrower, maybe a paralyzer.

    Expect to be mocked, expect to kite a lot but if you have high umd, the character would not be without redeeming value.
    I remember reading about one guy who could do 50 - 100 damage per Shuriken which is pretty impressive. This was with the very best gear he could find, and with everything focussed on getting maximum damage. Now, this amount of damage certainly put him above regular PuGGers, but nowhere near melee people who have the very best gear and total focus on DPS.

    I read about another guy with a Dwarf focussed on using the Dwarven Thrower getting a lot of DPS until mid teen levels when the Dwarven Thrower really started to fall away.

    If someone really wants to go down this path, a very useful thing to do is to have the best available Seeker weapon/shield in the Off-Hand.

  5. #5
    Community Member Falco_Easts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain1z View Post
    As an aside, manyshot makes bows more valueable. Repeaters have permanent manyshot, low crit ranges but no strength bonus. None of the above applies to thrown last i checked, which was over a year ago, so my knoweldge may be dated.
    It's not

    I have tried a couple of times because I like the idea of a thrower build. I run or 2 quests and shelve him again for another month or two
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  6. #6
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    thrower builds are (potentially) better than they used to be.

    that said, they're still terrible.

    the "best" thrower build if i'm not mistaken would be a (drow) ninja spy monk throwing shurikens. add in 10k stars for a mini-manyshot, and with shuriken expertise you could do slightly less terrible damage than you normally might expect.

    of course, there's a big difference between "good" and "less bad".

  7. #7

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    Now that returning throwing weapons can be crafted you can craft a much improved thrower. My acrobat/monk carries a +5 holy silver shuriken of greater lawful outsider bane and a +5 holy burst shuriken of pure good. I off-hand a crafted seeker +8 kama of ranged alactrity +10%. Even with those and 10k stars, my ranged DPS is miles behind my quarterstaff DPS. And quarterstaff DPS is miles behind most everything else.

    About a year ago I tried to play a throwing axe speced dwarven barbarian using Sig Trent's 'Chuck' build as a guide. It was fun in the low levels, especially in explorer areas, but after about 8th level it was just too painful standing there throwing when I knew a greataxe would be hitting twice as fast for double the damage.

    I agree with Jaid. Definitely slightly 'less bad,' but still a long way from good.

  8. #8
    The Hatchery amnota's Avatar
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    Halfling thrower builds are fun.

    Of course the trick is in knowing just how to bend the halfling...otherwise they never come back.
    Some people are like Slinkies
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  9. #9
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    1. Let me dual wield throwers and I'll be a bit intrigued.

    2. Perhaps an active clickie ability that lets me toss say 10 all at once. Put it on a 30 second cooldown.

    3. Allow rogues/artificers to toss "sticky bombs" at mobs and detonate them at will, creating an AOE of "splodey" goo. Combine with #1 and/or #2 for max fun.

    Basically throwers are just plain slow and not very fun. Even the best throwers can't keep up with average melee. Implement some changes so that it's a reasonable fighting style and players will come around. I think we're still waiting on the "ranged pass" for bow users so I'm not holding my breath.
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  10. #10
    Community Member masterzzan's Avatar
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    only reason i keep a throwing weapon on my casters is to break objects and sue levers from afar without wasting my sp. then again i also have unending wands that can do that
    ^^^^^^^^
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  11. #11
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Just pointing this out, the shiradi champion Destiny on lama has an enhancement that increase thrown weapon speed up to 60% (subject to change at any time). Hopefully that survives beta and gets to live, it's a pretty damn nice buff to my halfing shuriken thrower

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    Just pointing this out, the shiradi champion Destiny on lama has an enhancement that increase thrown weapon speed up to 60% (subject to change at any time). Hopefully that survives beta and gets to live, it's a pretty damn nice buff to my halfing shuriken thrower
    I seem to recall that a Dev hinted that there may be a thrown weapons pass during the enhancement update when this epic enhancement was discussed.

    Thrown weapon builds may be a lot more viable in a few months' time. Maybe.

  13. #13
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomKeypress View Post
    I seem to recall that a Dev hinted that there may be a thrown weapons pass during the enhancement update when this epic enhancement was discussed.

    Thrown weapon builds may be a lot more viable in a few months' time. Maybe.
    That was Vargouille who said that, can't seem to find that exact quote though, one can only hope it's true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    I'm on a tiny private crusade to make throwing weapons relevant. And boost the rest of ranged, but throwing is the red-headed stepchild of ranged fighting. This may take some time. (It may even been said that Whirling Wrists is too strong. I await the day when shuriken nerfs are demanded. Bwahahahaha!)

  14. #14
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    well to be really honest, its in the "might just work" category.
    ive made a 370± ish dps build that looks good on paper. before haste, haste boost, and any tod haste competance bonus.
    never actually rolled it.

    there was a thread some while ago where i made ( do note i was half asleep when i wrote that) a brainstorm about a thrower build, here is the link.

    also note that it multiplies when hitting multiple enemies with improved precise shot.

  15. #15
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    You'll be hitting less than half of the AA's damage. When he pops out manyshoot, your damage looks like chicken feed compared to his. I've seen a vorpal thrower get a decent amount of damage : )
    A rogue is basically, "Look at me or die."

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpiKagEMO View Post
    You'll be hitting less than half of the AA's damage. When he pops out manyshoot, your damage looks like chicken feed compared to his. I've seen a vorpal thrower get a decent amount of damage : )
    can you show math instead of just a statements?

  17. #17
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    Throwing a bit of info into the mix. When they first changed the blades in the shroud, I crafted up a +5 silver holy throwing axe of pure good. Its a throwing version of the greataxe I use on harry.

    The blades turned out to not be such a big problem so I never used the thrower until a week ago, I thought I would test it for lols. As harry was near to dead in round 5 I threw it at him a bunch of times and was surprised at the damage. It was a bit better than half the damage I would expect from the great axe. Looking at mid 30's to 40's primary damage + holy and PG effects.

    I don't know how that compares to the bow in capable hands. But it wasn't as pathetic as I was expecting and it did make me wonder what sort of DPS one could achieve with a feat or two.

  18. #18
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Got Shuriken Expertize, Quick Draw and 10k Stars on my monk build. Usually single of double hits, occasionally triple and sometimes rarely it hits 4 times, which leads me to believe that Shuriken Expertize and 10k Stars proc each other, or something, or procs have a chance to proc.
    With a wounding shuriken of bleed it's... not terrible. It's probably between 60-100% increase in DPS over a monk without anything, but still, 100% increase to "very little" is still "little".

    If you can get 3 past lives of ranger then it might be ok.

    Don't take unless you're swimming in feats is my advice. Luckily fighter/monk combo swims in feats :P
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

    (Fighter->Fighter->Fighter->Monk->Monk->Barbarian->Paladin->Ranger)

  19. #19
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    The "best" thrower build would undoubtedly be a 12 rogue/6 monk/2 fighter with improved sneak attack, shuriken expertise, high str/dex/wis (level ups in wis or dex) and Shiradi Champion. This build would still be terrible but it's as good as you can get, probably expect 60% of the DPS of a bow build which puts out less than a melee build.

    With the 2 fighter I think there is enough feats to fit in GTWF'ing so can still do moderate melee DPS. Can use my Starry-eyed Rouge build in my index as a base and pick up 4 spare fits, 1 for Shuriken Expertise, Quickdraw, TWF'ing and ITWF, would like to be able to take IC:B (for loot gen radiance wraps) and GTWF but no room. Epic Feats are Improved Sneak Attack and maybe Combat Archery but +1[weapon] on a 1d2 weapon is pretty bad return for investment :P
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  20. #20
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikbozelie View Post
    can you show math instead of just a statements?
    Do I really have to do the math? It's quite obvious if you played them both :'(

    I'll show you lazy math.
    Please note: AVERAGE
    At 20:
    Average arrow=25 per shot-AA=+500 on a 20... Good luck beating that
    Average thrower=25 per throw...Getting extra effects on your thrower... Tough luck. exception of U14, Now I see poison returners

    Good rangers take or have rapid shot, therefore, more dps.

    Speed from average arrow with many shoot=100 per shot
    Multiplies with all other effects-pure good, Acid, Slaying on 20

    When I saw the monk throwing his vorpal shurikens, I had in mind old school vorpal. The second he rolled a 20, +1 Kill.
    A rogue is basically, "Look at me or die."

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