Thank you, I really appreciate the moderate tone of your reply. I take your point that my experience may be different from that of other people.
My main is a ranger/rogue, that just finished his sixth life. He was weak and poorly geared for his first couple of lives, and being weak really hammered home the lesson that wading in could get him badly wounded or killed in just about every encounter on harder difficulties. It really focused my attention on playstyle in melee.
There are a number of ways to interpret this experience, and the one I eventually settled on was that I needed to play more intelligently and better use the tools that exist in game to solve these problems. Please note that this is not a swipe at you, from reading your posts I can see that you are an experienced player.
The toon I played second most was my healer, who is on his third life. I made him to get into the PUG scene so I could learn the content I couldn't do by myself, raids and suchlike. I have difficulty with that toon. I don't play it much anymore because I dislike the rudeness and stupid expectations I encounter in some groups. I am in a solo guild, so no guild runs.
During those three lives I've run with melees of all levels of ability, though, and it's always a ton of fun to run with people who know how to take care of themselves, really only need my healing for the occasional top-up, and are grateful for it. This includes people who are playing full dps characters too, fighters, barbarians, etc. Very good players, blowing through difficult content too, not mincing along and pulling mobs one by one to gang up on them.
I think the problems you've mentioned definitely do exist. They are caused by a mixture of things, but maybe they don't necessitate changes being made to the game.
People who are rude to healers and/or expect babysitting, people who don't know their capabilities well enough to judge when a frontal assault or some more careful play is most appropriate, people who don't know how to gear and build toons to be able to look after themselves; does the game really need to cater to these types?
I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Last edited by blerkington; 06-22-2012 at 12:16 AM.
It is not about simply giving a bigger healing pot to a barb or a fighter, it is about changing the entire mentality and perceptions of the game to: We should tend our own.
You used the phrase "Stupid expectations" and I have to agree with you there. However that stupid expectation is derived from the moronically minimal means that a melee has to tend themselves.
Those SilverFlame pots being a prime example of how bad it is going to get for a melee to self heal. First they need to own all the SilverFlame Favor packs, then elite almost every single quest, and their reward for that effort is a potion that provides -10 to all stats, -10 to all Saves as well as crippling effect of a slow run speed, to obtain a minimal amount of self healing. You could not paint a sign bigger that says "You need a nanny-bot to stay alive", without totally removing any trace of self-sufficiency.
Thus from day one as a melee they get constantly bombarded with bad options to worse options if they plan to be self-reliant, and that pretty much shoves them into a corner where they feel dependent and trapped into needing a nanny-bot, and that is where the problems really start and the major core of the issue. That is the cause of those "Stupid-Expectations"
Because lets be honest here, Divines don't want to play nanny to anyone, they don't want to be nursemaids, or babysit anyone. They want to log in, join a group, and have some fun like anyone else in the entire game. The same holds true for a melee, they don't need to feel like they are dependent on someone kissing their every boo-boo. No one wants to have to joined at the hip to another player in their party, everyone wants to be able ti run off and have some fun, it's a game after all, it's supposed to be about meeting people and having fun quests and adventure.
And in that spirit, needing to wait for some other player to join your group (like a healer) to enable you to be able to have any fun is about a huge a design flaw as you could possibly get.
Thus, the only way for cooperative fun, enjoyable play to exist if for the game to have from the very start an ambiance of self-accountability, but that can only happen if everyone is given the means to honestly account for themselves from Krothos to Epics.
As I said before, a Self-Sufficient Melee should not be the pet project of a bored vet, or a goal for life 3+, it needs to be something for a first life player, to be get the message reinforced by the game itself from the very start.
Last edited by Ungood; 06-22-2012 at 02:30 PM.
Fighters and barbarians can always get more healing amp and have those cure serious potions actually be useful. I suspect you mention those potions solely for leveling purposes and not for use at level cap. Not as a way of self-sufficiency anyway.
If you want to do a barbarian life just to get the past life and then TR again, there's no reason to go Horc. Go human and get tons of racial healing amp, grind some basic healing amp gear like Levvik's Bracers, Hamp DT armor etc... It's not as hard as you may think. If you want to be self-sufficient then getting those items should be a priority and not be considered excessive.
Are you concerned about new players without gear? Well, they have to have some goal to progress in the game. You cant expect a new player to roll a barbarian and have his mind on running epics with an eSoS from day1.
End-game raiding toons are different. They may have a hard time reaching level cap, but their goal is not soloing quests and zergin' through Bloody Crypt or Wiz-King anyway... their goal is end-game raids, that WILL have dedicated healers to watch over them, they will have the gear needed and most probably will have a few past lives as well. So, there's really no need for these toons to be able to self heal.
Even more so, I can assure you that most people who see divines as pure heal-bots are people who don't even care to become self sufficient, they just don't care. They don't even care to learn how to play the game. They want to rush in battle no matter what and demand from the divine caster in the party to act as a heal-bot. This is THEIR problem. They don't want to stop and think before they act, they don't care to make their toon survivable.
How many times have you stumbled upon a wf barbarian with no healing amp whatsoever? It has happened to me MANY times. This kind of toons deserve to have a hard time staying alive, deserve the frustration of waiting endlessly for a healer.
Additionally, what about the classes that are already self-sufficient. Some more, some less, some effortlessly, some with effort.... Monks, Paladins, Rangers and via UMD Artificers, Bards and Rogues. All those things you said about giving self-healing abilities to melees are actually directed towards 2 classes and 2 classes alone. Barbarian and Fighter. That's it. The others have ways to self heal already. Don't you find this to be somewhat unfair?
just my 2 cents on the matter
Thanks again for the reply. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I am grateful for the effort you are making to discuss this and improve the game, so +1 to you.
The thing is, I like that this problem exists, because I think it fosters group play and teamwork, and makes the game more complex and interesting. It provides a niche for characters like mine who are good but not top-notch dps, but are more versatile and survivable.
Getting back to your argument, some gear is difficult to get, and some builds are not obvious or not even possible for new players, I get that. Heal scrolls, SF potions, healing amp all do exist, though, they work, and good use can be made of them once you know.
My main point was that the sooner a melee learns to play well, tactically, not just acting the aggro magnet without having the means to deal with that aggro, the sooner this problem goes away.
Arranging things so that you take as little damage per encounter as possible helps considerably. This changes the issue from healing while fighting to healing between fights, which is a much easier problem for everyone, regardless of build. Raids and certain other very tough quests aside, of course.
Being thoughtful, working with other people, recognising your limitations, consciously trying to improve your game, and being considerate of healers also all contribute to the solution.
The tools are all there. It's just a matter of using them to solve what is a very solvable problem.
In many way we will simply never see the same path in this discussion, and perhaps that comes from what we hope to accomplish with any change. Like many things, an idea forms to address a problem, and the solution may at first not seem to align, but, only after implementation does the effects begin to take place.The thing is, I like that this problem exists, because I think it fosters group play and teamwork, and makes the game more complex and interesting. It provides a niche for characters like mine who are good but not top-notch dps, but are more versatile and survivable.
Here is what I see, so perhaps you can get a firm understanding of where I am coming from.
I read countless other posts by players of divines (The OP being yet another fine example of this) about the difficulty of healing, the cost of healing, and all these other problems. Some are not solvable by "Smart" game-play, in the case of the cost of healing a high end raid, the problem manifests itself in simply a lack of DPS to be able to finish the fight in sufficient amount of time, in other times it is a problem with people not wanting to stay together.
But the real problem is that Divine is looked upon only as a "healer"
The OP asked for ideas about how to encourage people to play Divines, this topic is about what would it take to get more people willing to play "Divines" and the long, short, and in reality, only answer is to make their job easier or perhaps, or perhaps another way to look at it, is the solution is to make their "Job" non-existent and allow them to simply play the game as they see fit.
Thus, problems like dependency are not encouraging group play, they are in fact, from the many posts in these forums, the pinnacle point of what is discouraging to group play for many divines. Thus we get divines not wanting to pug, or only running in channel/guild runs, a slew of LFM's with BYOH started by Divines, divines opting to solo content as opposed to grouping at all. And the list of how the game becomes more and more segmented rolls on.
So. This topic or discussion is not about keeping flavor builds viable, or some such, it not about making some hybrid melee build feel better about themselves because they don't need a "healer" it is about creating a game environment where there is no 'Healer' and when a divine joins the group, they are met as an equal among peers, not some player shoved in a role that we denote to hirelings and such.
"Our Healer arrived" should not be the welcome line when a Divine joins a group.
But the only way to make that happen is for all classes to have inherent and obvious self-sufficiency, that is made clear at the very starting levels that "Self-Sufficiency" is the name of the game in this MMO. The message that just because you played a max DPS class does not mean you get to treat the divines in your group like your own personal Hit Point Pump.
But as long as the best DPS classes in the game need to depend on a Divine to heal them will expect a Divine to heal, and thus demand that a Divine heals them, and we see how the process goes.
The only way to break that process is at the "need" phase of it, and that need, needs to go away at the early levels, and remain that Divine healing is a Boon, not a requirement.
In that front, I feel that the inherent dependency of some classes is actually a deterrent to group play, and this seems to be reinforced by every divine post I have read to date about why they no longer pug, or don't like to pug.
So. In that regard, freeing a divine from the shackles of "healer" and allowing them to be a divine is what will inspire more people to play them, and that can only happen if we abolish the dependency that classes have on needing a "healer".
This everyone gains freedom to enjoy the game, and by giving all players that freedom, I believe they will opt to group more because it is a means of socializing and enjoying the company of other players, which is what an MMO should be about.
Such is my feelings on the matter.
That was a very well-written post, thank you.
Although I think you've made a good argument, I still have trouble with what you're proposing because my own experience tells me that it's generally the badly-played or badly-built melees who are really suffering from this problem. Outside of raids and very difficult content, that is.
Regarding the effects on class balance, what does better self sufficiency for pure dps classes mean for the other classes or builds who sacrifice dps to be able to heal themselves? Will this invalidate build choices or whole classes?
What you are proposing may in fact continue the problem of shallow thinking in terms of narrow class roles. Why take a ranger or paladin into a group, other than for reasons of charity, if you can take pure dps classes who can now also heal themselves?
And, specifically, what do you propose be available to dps builds to let them heal themselves? How much healing should they be able to do? In or out of combat? And at what cost will this facility be made available?
I am more sympathetic to your position now, but I think it may have other consequences for class choice and in-game behaviour, and the devil will very much be in the details.
Last edited by blerkington; 06-27-2012 at 11:16 PM.
Nah healers need to be the coolest looking. Glowing eye fvs only goggles, awesome armors, big wicked looking death head staffs with great stats. Boba Fett factor I say.
The main reason people don't like to play healers is they are often pigeon holed look/gear wise as look of christian clergy. Light robes, weak armor, grey blue shields, pink wands. Its a problem in every mmo.
Also gameplay can be an annoyance with healers most times. They got it right with nice features with fvs leap of faith for example totally. "Give them a cool mobility on battlefield feat" was a damn good idea. That combined with DP on my FVS and I am game to heal for sure, because I can solo a bit also.
My main who is a super geared fighter with silver flame pots on the other hand can solo anything as far as even raid bosses (non epic) pre expansion. He IS overpowered as set up, practically unstoppable without massive enemy cc and fast multiple ranged dpsers. Talking epic haywire foundry, pre xpack, with unlucky rolls, type of stoppage to take out my fighter, even when solo. I take my fvs in there and he can get things done solo, but its a long process.
Common knowledge however is if fully geared, TR'ed etc, a fvs can solo anything better than anyone, I can see how, but I don't care, because the character just isn't "cool" like my fighter.
Lack of healer play isn't an overpowered issue with healers being less abundant, its a cool factor thing.
Last edited by lotsfan; 07-02-2012 at 05:01 AM.
It interests me and discourages me that so many cry out that all classes should have the ability to heal themselves. I disagree. A clerics primary job is to keep the party alive and as a cleric player I enjoy the satisfaction in keeping the party alive. If I don't feel like healing a party, I play a different toon. My blue bar belongs to my team so that we can complete the quest. If I play a Barbarian then my axe belongs to the party and I do everything I can to hit hard and and avoid damage, and buy pots to heal myself between battles and even protecting the healer. If you don't like healing parties, then play a different toon or play by yourself. On this note, I don't mind healing teammates and don't mind keeping them alive.
Clerics have the power to keep the team alive and also Clerics have the power to not heal. I will heal everyone even the inexperienced players, and I can also not heal the players who blatantly disregard the team and rush forward compromising the success of the quest by their selfish play style and inability and skill to avoid damage that otherwise is avoidable. Clerics and Favored Souls have the built in ability to be the deciding factor in any battle. Who lives and who might stay dead for a while. He he he.
I argue to keep the roles as is and have the separation of caster, melee, and specialists. This game seems to be designed for classes to fill roles creating a team-player environment. It also allows players to create self-sufficient toons and play solo.
What makes this game interesting to me is the ability to make any type of build I can think up given the current options available and see how it turns out. DDO allows us to multi-class and infinitely make each class/build different to fill the role we wish to play, and/or make a self-efficient build (which there a plenty of self-efficient builds/classes out there).
On an earlier post it was said that DDO as failed to create a way to educate us on how to play the game. I disagree again. I love the fact that I have to figure it out myself for my playstyle using information I gathered and buil my knowledge from other players observations and experience in the game. I would not play the game if there was only one way to build a toon.
In reference to Cleric enhancement lines, epic destinies, Feat selections options, spells, and gear>> I'd love more options! I read several threads and it seems these are on the way, they just did not make it on this update.
When you roll your cleric take some time to decide what kind of play-style you prefer as a cleric and realize your gonna heal. Its just a matter of when you gonna heal and let your party know so they can adjust their tactics; healer in the middle of battle, healer caster standing on the sidelines, situation healer doing a little of everything, and/or a horrible clieric> “screw you guys, this blue bar is for me.” The last type of player-toon combo is not welcome in my party for very long. If I want that type I call for a Sorc or Wiz to the party and sit back and watch the fireworks till their blue bar goes out. As in any class there are good player/toon combos and bad.
In short: Stop whining about healing. Grab your cleric, put on some armor, pick up your gear, smite your enemies, make them kneel before you, and kick Death's A%#. Because no one can stop Death like a Cleric (and some favored souls).
Right, wrong, good or bad I said it. Play Cleric or play something else.
However, the problem as it is, is about making the game role-less and allow for everyone to have the freedom to play their toon as they wish. If someone wants to roll a melee FvS, they should be allowed to do so, and not be shoved into the role of healer if they expect to get into the hard content, or do much more then their tight knit groups (if they have them) will allow.
It is a bane in many ways to say if you play a divine that you need to heal, you can opt to not heal and pesue other directions, however the classes that are interdependent on "healing" classes will inherently reject the deviation from "role" because of their own limitations, they will seek to impose limitations on others.
So only by removing the very premise of pigeon hole philosophy, and abolishing the role mentality from the player bas by allowing more diversity among the builds, while giving them their own unique strengths, can we make a game that allows players to just enjoy playing with whomever they want, regardless of class.
It is rather unbecoming to walk into a quest and have everyone just shoved into little boxes and told what their single minded task shall be, we have a great vast diversity in this game, and roles do little more then destroy creativity, they bludgeon to death the concept of building different strategy builds, and force people to be mindless sheep in what should be a game of heroic adventures. In many ways the "role" concept in fact caters to myopic single minded concepts and thus encourages poorly developed toons that are one dimensional. Games that permit or entice the very idea of roles are a festering breeding ground of displaced blame, where a "Melee" feels adequate, even justified, (which is heinous really) to blame the "healer" for their death.
Personally such antics should have no place in a "heroic" fantasy game. So, in reality the only way to let people be more active on any of their toons, is to deconstruct the walls that block diversity among the builds.
How that happens in the end of things, could be it's own topic, how the balances are struck could be debated for the end of time, but that does not change the fact that "roles" honestly need to be removed and the only way to make that happen is offer more diversity among the builds, and thus allow and reinforce that everyone is to be accountable for their own survival, from level 1 to now level 25.
As a player having both a capped cleric and favored soul, I tend to agree with the OP. More dev love sent to healers would be a good game bonus - especially in raids.
Healers often raid in groups that are already heavy with healers so they can do something OTHER than constant babysit healing. Plus, raids tend to be very expensive for healers - especially the top ones (and often with little incentive in terms of gear drops).
Now, on the plus the last 2 new series did have some very nice items for healers (the mace and the shield). That's a step in the right direction.
Now, on the babysitting. I do heal and like to heal - but, too many DPS focus so heavily on DPS (and often it's still lackluster) that they totally neglect all defense measures (such as AC, healing amp, DR, threat reduction if not a "tank", UMD or some other way to use healing wands or scrolls, or even having healing pots, pots or items for removing disease/poison/etc.). Classes should not be totally self-sufficient, but everyone needs a degree of it. And, you can always encourage or reward healers by giving them spell point pots - they are doggone expensive!
And, what's really funny - when a group lacks the DPS to do a raid, they usually complain that there wasn't enough healing - no matter how good the healer, you can't keep healing forever if the DPS is lacking. Most of the times I've seen a raid fail it was more due to lack of DPS than due to lack of healing - but, more often than not someone there blames the healer. You want to see more healers - defend the poor healer who gets blamed for every little misfortune.
Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
Freibo (Halfling Rogue)
I don't particularly agree with the statement that divines need to be more "powerful," but that they need to get more of their core spells and abilities, such as domains.
That wouldn't necessarily make a more character powerful in all cases, but would for the smart player in practice.
I do agree that many classes need to be buffed and revisited comprehensively, most particularly bards, paladins, and rangers.
That said, the enhancement pass will likely change the game so much that this thread would best be served making constructive suggestions as to what divines should get in the pass, realistically. And I think any player of experience knows that divines, and in general casting classes, are already "over power" of the relative standard of power distributed amongst casters and noncasters.
The fact that there are only two truly divine healing classes out of thirteen classes, including two supplemental healer classes outside of the divine arena (druid and bard), has more to do with the dearth of healers online than anything else. My opinion, though.
There is allready 2 ways to do selfsufficient melee via umd or helf cleric dille, so i dont get the idea why people still complain about heals?
There really are lots of ways DPS'ers can be somewhat self-sufficient and/or make the healer's job easier. Just do as many as you can without sacrificing DPS and even make a minor compromise or two to increase survivability.
Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
Freibo (Halfling Rogue)
I have a pally with wicked healing amp (including pally past lives)... and I have a Horc Barb that is not self sufficient in any way.
Giving the option to my healer friends... 9 times out of 10 they would prefer me to play the Barb over the Pally... because the quest gets done faster.
Who would you want to tank for you? ok DPS self-sufficient Pally or wicked DPS Barb reliant on healer?
In addition to SF pots and half-elf dilettante, there are many ways to be more self sufficient: pots (though need the favor tied bigger ones at higher levels) and regeneration items (and heal skill via resting) to recoup HP. And to reduce damage taken: DR items, and higher AC, and threat reduction. And to reduce amount of healing needed: higher HP items to have a bigger pool of HP, toughness items and feats/enhancements, stoneskin items, and healing amplification. To make the healer's job easier: keeping near them and within site so they don't waste spells casting heals at you when you are behind an object and can't be healed. And, to help out the poor healer who has to heal your "sorry ***": gold donations for them and giving them SP pots.
There really are lots of ways tanks can be somewhat self-sufficient and/or make the healer's job easier. Just do as many as you can without sacrificing tank ability and even make a minor compromise or two to increase survivability.
Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
Freibo (Halfling Rogue)
Could we get an OP cleric to turn undead here? This is a 6 month's old thread... And on top of that the last couple of posts is senseless beating of a dead horse.
-The mash on Argo
In Soviet Russia Shroud trust in YOU!
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