The mass insta kill spells has routinely made the game less fun for my melee and made DDO boring and less challenging.
In pen and paper in one campaign I was in it was extremely high powered. The dungeon master in that campaign had no problem with throwing out an insta-kill right off the bat. It was quite concieveable for the dungeon master's bad guys to win the initiative and hit me with a finger of death flatfooted without even a chance to react. So what did I do on my level 18+ cleric is I put the death ward property on my armor (the deathward property automatically casts the deatward spell cl 7 whenever a negative energy effect strikes you, but it is only 1 use per day).
The Devs really do have the deathward property option, but they are limited because of programming. They can not arbitrarly say on some of the mobs there is the deathward property because that requires too much programming; hence, blanket immunites which are not good either. The best option is target and nerf the mass insta kills and leave alone single target insta-kills. For those of you that remember live before mass instakills when the cap in DDO was 16 and below the gameplay was better.
Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.
It proofs anything than how closely matched Sorcerer, Wizards and Favored Souls are and even then someone could still argue that Favored Souls and Sorcerer had the kill count more often than Wizards. The nerf to Wail (or Necromancy) is not going to slow those guys down unless it also goes hand in hand with a nerf to caster dps.
Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)
No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other.
-- Jascha Heifetz
This is (in the current environment) better than both previous incarnations of a "fix" to this "problem", so in that sense I suppose its a good move. But really, 1/4th as effective is quite a hit. I think you went too far. Especially so considering the people with DCs in the 45 range (which is what is largely considered "the problem" range) are in epic content where the addition of negative levels won't really help much of anything, as they are simply healed too fast to matter.
Is there any chance of adjusting the recast? I don't think having it affect more mobs per tick is a good idea, and simply adding more negative levels (so that it matters on epic) starts to infringe on Energy Drain. Likewise, making it last longer isn't really a good solution since the perceived issue Dev-side is that it can clear a whole room (ie, affect too many mobs at once). But a 1 minute recast is rough with the target count also halved. Again, plenty of classes can get 10 kills a minute from a top end ability... and a DC45 Wail from an Epic Geared PM is most definitely a top end ability operating at max capacity.
I like this overall approach the best of all, but I hope a small adjustment can be made to the recast (perhaps 45s wiz / 36s sorc, or 40s wiz / 33s sorc, or something) can be made. It is still much weaker proportionally than it was, but at least it would avoid having people to wait a full minute between using their nerfed abilities... a minute is a long time in DDO land, and I would like to see this closer to an action boost in application where you can get 1 per fight (like haste boost) instead of 1 every few fights (like manyshot).
If you can get the timer down to something palatable, I would be impressed with your treatment of this "issue", which I still contend is build greatly upon peoples perception of a problem and less on any comparable numbers (ie, people feel its too good to see a lot of mobs die at once, instead of looking at averages killed per unit time or per unit mana etc... it looks like a problem more than is a problem). After all, few, if any, people have complained about Assassinate, and I have seen it result in numerous cases where skilled players on well built toons dominate adventures. But thats just it, its not something you "see" as readily as a lot of things falling over next to a wizard.
Thanks for reading the feedback, and I hope it gets polished up before release.
Gildus, Yhvain, Sabathiel, Einion
Be Chill, have fun
Coming into this discussion a little late and havent read everything here...
I like the changes proposed as the thought of going back to blanket deathward on epics scares the hell out of me.
I wonder though if, now that all death spells have a limit, that making them more effective againts deathward is required? I think someone mentioned in here the idea of making deathward work like the poison/disease revamp. Is that still something that could be considered with regards to the haunting mechanic?
I.E. deathward grants a +10 bonus to your saves vs death effects (with no autofail on a 1) but allows really high DC casters to still get through the buff?
It would help ease the "try to kill the same immune mobs" problem people are highlighting and of cause this would have a high detriment on players vs high level casters of death spells. At least it allows pale masters a chance to deal with cleric mobs that cast deathward before their even targetable!
1) "Quijenoth" Main Arcane Caster, 2life PM, 3life BrdTR, 4life FvS.
2) "Vallaes" Melee Tank build, 2nd life Barbarian.
3) "Elvraema" Experiments, 1-Mnk6/FvS14 Solo build. 2-"Dronker"
All these systems changes come from the actual devs who care deeply about game balance and providing an appropriate challenging and entertaining experience for you. They have to lobby fairly hard to get these changes in, and even then the changes are monitored closely and then altered as necessary.
Many of these changes come as requests from these forums, some come from our own play experience, but most come as a result of both.
It isn't easy "nerfing" anyone's character abilities, regardless of how justified it might seem. It is especially difficult given that we created the situation that now warrants the change. If only making everything over powered was the route to success our jobs would be much easier.
We have been making every effort to share the changes with you and solicit feedback, often resulting in an improved solution. This itself is tricky because it's natural for many of us to react negatively to any type of change.
To those of you who have responded constructively one way or the other, we thank you.
Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.
The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.
You know its funny but I think an easy solution to this lies in an old John Goodman Saturday Night Live Skit.
Scene: A cave somewhere deep in the sulferous mines of MT. Reysalon. A battered group of kobolds stumble into a meeting room. At the front of the room stands a pudgy kobold mini boss with a yard stick in hand and a scowl on his face. Next to him is a large chalk board with strategy notes and symbols scribbled on it.
Mini Boss: Ok settle down settle down. Well, that did not go well.
Kobold Masses: Grumble, grumble, grumble....
Mini Boss (pointing to the chalk board with stick): How did we agree we were going to attack the adventurers?
Kobold Masses (in one monotone grumbling voice): One at a time!
Mini Boss : And how did we do it?
Kobold Masses (again in one voice like school children): All at once in a big group
Mini Boss : Guys, we can't keep doing this. The PM just gets us all with one spell.....
Sorry to bother you, but it seems that it's still unclear if we are getting lesser hearts of wood with MoTU, are you able to comment on this? I ask because you where the dev involved in said discussion during the Beta.
"Pike or do not. There is no lag."
Last edited by Scraap; 06-11-2012 at 05:20 PM.
Still, though. You did create the circumstance in which people worked for some considerable time and let them put money and time into this. In future, if something OP is released into game it needs to be changed very, very quickly. Preferably whilst in beta, of course. If only Wail had, had thorough testing back in the day...
But I still think the best solution is in taking time to create appropriately challenging and varied content, not in impairing or negating the abilities that people have felt "safe" in acquiring.
(Thanks as ever for the honest post)
Edit: The collective "you", not "you you".
I love how when turbine makes a change and asks for input we give it.
If they change, then it's because people cried and whined.
If they don't, it's because they're evil and don't care or listen.
Either way they can't win.
<-Curelite Bottling Company->
Originally Posted by Chilldude
So if we are ok with Phantasmal Killer because it has 2 saves, and we are not ok with Wail of the Banshee because it has one save. Why not replace Wail of the Banshee with Weird? Or in better news just add Weird into the game anyways we need more illusion spells.
Weird Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Madness 9, Mind 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the affected creatures see the phantasmal creatures attacking them, though you see the attackers as shadowy shapes. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. If a subject’s Fortitude save succeeds, it still takes 3d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. The subject also takes 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage.
If the subject of a weird attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
Keeper of Keenbean's Heart
DAMAGED INC. || Apsalhar Rogue Archtype KotC Paladin Bladesworne Bard Brightlance Archer Khrul Monk Lhyric Pale Master Maleus Barb Mornir DoS Paladin Rackoth Sorc Ubiquitous Thrower Vhalkerie Druid Widdowmaker Artificer
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