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  1. #1
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Default XP Penalties for epic levels

    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.


    EDIT: Based on feedback, this change will be reverted. Thanks for the feedback!
    Last edited by MadFloyd; 06-08-2012 at 04:51 PM. Reason: No longer accurate.
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  2. #2
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    I may be a little naive when it comes to this, so bear with me, but why even bother with XP penalties in epic quests? Sure, I can see a 18 running with a 24, you should get dinged hard (but wouldn't be allowed in an EPIC quest so it's kind of moot for those quests). But can you elaborate on the reasoning behind 20-21 having a penalty for running with a 24-25?

    I just see this as another thing that has more potential to cloud and confuse people. Maybe it's because I'm still over-whelmed with everything else.

  3. #3
    Community Member nivarch's Avatar
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    I have a few concerns:

    1/ Aren't some destiny enhancements supposed to have a minimum level?
    If yes, how do you handle this? It would be bad to be considered level 25 because you have a level 5 active ED, but can't use any of the top tier enhancements since you are only level 20.

    2/ Items still have a ML based on character level, level 25 characters will probably be much more powerful than level 20 because they will have access to end game gear.
    Can't this be an issue?:
    - A level 20 TR with a level 5 ED will be considered level 25 but won't be able to equip his gear (and don't tell me to change ED, there is a time where you'll have all ED capped...) so he will have a penalty in lower level quests and won't be strong enough for higher level ones
    - A level 25 with a level 0 ED will be considered level 20, but will be able to steamroll any level 20 content because of his gear (this is not a major concern tho)


    However I love the fact that you could swap ED to be able to lower your level to run with friends. Yet this won't work eternally since, as previously mentioned, you'll cap all destinies one day or another.

    Edit: Best solution for me would be to completly remove penalty. It's only 5 levels, so shouldn't be a big deal, and would avoid the worst issue (the one where people with a high ED level take an xp penalty while they are still leveling their character level).
    Last edited by nivarch; 06-08-2012 at 11:31 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Its going to be kind of hard to see right off the bat.

    Currently if I want to maintain an elite streak for instance, I can look at the LFM and see everyones levels in a group and see if that qualifies or not.

    In this system are the active ED going to show up in the LFM? If not, how will I know what level we are counted as for penalization BEFORE I join? Its better to know this before joining, than having to join and pull up the quest detail sheet to see that someone qualifies as a level 25 and therefore is heavily penalizing the rest of the 20s and 21s in the group.
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  5. #5
    Hatchery Founder
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    Seems like a great idea to me. It should mean leveling up with friends is easier too once you get to Epic Levels.


    What I'm more curious and concerned about is how things like Bravery Bonuses, and Repetition penalties will work with Epic quests. Bravery Bonuses I assume are going to be a first time only thing, with the first time completion only resetting after a TR.

    The repetition penalties might get a bit ugly, since now with 10 different destinies to potentially level, there needs to be a lot of potential xp in the game. Will there be repetition penalties in Epic content? And if so, is there a plan to address quests only giving meager xp for characters working on many epic destinies?
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  6. #6
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    Do repitition penalties still apply regardless of active ED or do they reset with it?

  7. #7
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Is this for xp purposes only? As mentioned above, if I have a bunch of newly acquired level 23+ gear, does it all fall off when I switch destinies and start leveling another one?
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    The repetition penalties might get a bit ugly, since now with 10 different destinies to potentially level, there needs to be a lot of potential xp in the game. Will there be repetition penalties in Epic content? And if so, is there a plan to address quests only giving meager xp for characters working on many epic destinies?
    You make a good point here. Have Epic XP required (between levels) been locked down? I know they say that they aren't in the Notes, so I can only assume no. Certainly would be curious as to how much we are going to have to repeat quests.

  9. #9
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.

    For someone that TRs with some ED abilities unlocked, getting to level 20 should be cause for celebration, as you get to once more claim your epic abilities, not dread as you have to decide between using the cool stuff you had unlocked last life and leveling thanks to XP counting you as level 24 even though you are actually level 20.
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  10. #10
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.
    This, PLEASE!

    Destinies shouldn't be counted as levels, IMO. They are basically epic enhancements.
    A level 21 character should be a level 21 character, period.

    Anything else is unnecessarily confusing and un-needed, IMO.
    A level 20 can be counted as levels 20-25 ? Why?!?

    No, please. Things are already confusing enough. Destinies =/= levels.

    Anyone who doesn't have the destinies should NOT be penalized for playing with those that do. Please avoid further segregation of the player base between the haves and have nots.

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Is this for xp purposes only? As mentioned above, if I have a bunch of newly acquired level 23+ gear, does it all fall off when I switch destinies and start leveling another one?
    Argh.. didn't even think of this wrinkle..

    See? Keep it simple guys!

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  11. #11
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Is there going to be a penalty for a lvl 25 grouping with a lvl 20, as in the lvl 20 taking a "power leveled" hit?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    This discourages the activating of destines, which is a bad idea. Please just have them tied to Heroic level + Epic level.

    For someone that TRs with some ED abilities unlocked, getting to level 20 should be cause for celebration, as you get to once more claim your epic abilities, not dread as you have to decide between using the cool stuff you had unlocked last life and leveling thanks to XP counting you as level 24 even though you are actually level 20.
    Not sure I get why this is an issue...

    Overall, the epic levels don't make a huge difference, compared to what Epic Destinies offer. And if you're worried about maximizing the xp you get while working on Epic Levels, you could always just work on a new destiny, which still brings benefits.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Oh dear, I can already imagine how grouping would work:

    [Post a lfm saying "max ED lv 2, we want bravery streak"]
    [Group fills up]
    [We all fight our way through the explorer area, and step into the quest]
    [Look at xp panel, there's a level 23 in, no Bravery bonus]
    - Ok who has 3 level of ED?
    [Nobody speaks up]
    - Come on, who is killing our streak? We want xp!
    [Silence]
    ...
    [Leave group, start over with 20 mins wasted]


    Sounds like good times.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Seems like a great idea to me. It should mean leveling up with friends is easier too once you get to Epic Levels.
    Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

    For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.

  15. #15
    Community Member stainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiryuu42 View Post
    Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

    For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.
    If that is true, that is a terrible mechanic. Levels 20-25 should be able to group together without issue. There are several reasons. Content is limited at those levels. Those levels are the end game. I could go on, but I hope you (someone) gets the idea.

  16. #16
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    KISS.

    If you really need to have an xp penalty, then how does simply using heroic + epic level not work?

    I would take things a step further and ask if it's really essential to have any xp penalties at all in Epic. Can't a newly-capped lvl 20 still contribute to the success of a group containing five level 25s with maxed destinies?

    If we aren't scared of dual boxed powerleveling (with complete piking) why are we scared about the potential of powerleveling here?
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    For me the XP penalty remains the one drawback to actually soloing content as I'm not going to waste resources by running on hard or elite (especially with dumb hirelings) in which case I'm constantly forced to suffer XP penalties when my char hits level 22 and above.

    This system is not very effective. Please make it level 25 across the board or something. There shouldn't be any XP penalties at all. You devs have stated that causal and normal is for soloing and hard and elite closer to how the old epic diff was.

  18. #18
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Problems with this (not meant to be all inclusive list)...

    • You actually do gain some power from epic levels regardless of the ED you have slotted.
    • You gain ALOT more power from higher level ML items (which are tied to your epic levels not your ED tiers).
    • Actually makes grouping with friends more convuluted depending on where people are on their ED...a similar situation would be if you were power leveling people with your TRs depending on if they were 1st life, 2nd, 3rd, 4th...it's all hidden and worse in ED case can be changed to optimize for a dungeon which could mean different level penalties...
    • Makes balancing content for epic levels basically not possible below the current level cap. The gear swing is going to be a killer for this sort of thing. It would be like trying to balance for players who have eSoS, eabishi sets, and tod sets compared to guys with crystal cove ML 16 gear for the same quest level.
    • The shell game of what level someone really is will be a nightmare for groups.
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  19. #19
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    You also have to take into consideration that Epic Destinies are only available to people who purchased the XPack. There will still be F2P people leveling to 25 that will take a significant hit when leveling with tr's that have full ED available.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiryuu42 View Post
    Could you expand on this a bit? I see this as making it harder.

    For example, two TRs duo together in Heroic levels. They should reach level 20 at roughly the same time (some variation for ship/pot XP bonuses). One wants to finish up their current ED, and one wants to drill over to another sphere. Now one is "level 24" and the other is "level 20" and gets whacked with power leveling penalties.
    I guess I viewed it more as...

    One player has been questing at level 20, with his level 5 epic destiny. One of his buddies just reached epic levels. Now the first player can jump into a new epic destiny, and go questing with him, still making progress on something and not hurting any xp by being overlevel.
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