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  1. #21
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpredator View Post
    You also have to take into consideration that Epic Destinies are only available to people who purchased the XPack. There will still be F2P people leveling to 25 that will take a significant hit when leveling with tr's that have full ED available.
    Well under this system they would be permanently power leveled more or less at near endgame play

    They would have no tiers of ED so level 20 max...
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  2. #22
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    I guess you need to look at the pro's and con's of using destiny level vs. character level

    Character level = character level

    1. It makes more sense and is in line with how heroic works.
    2. Discourages anyone from taking level 25. You'll have a pile of 23's and 24's running around so they can group with their guildies and friends to earn destiny xp. The cap would essentially be 23 until you have all the xp you need, then you take 25 and get shut out of most groups because of the penalty you apply.
    3. Soloists will stay at level 22 and 23 as long as possible because of the need to run level 21 quests. Level 22 and higher seem to be meant for grouping only, so your solo options only go up to level 21. High level soloists are screwed for xp.

    Character level = Heroic level + active destiny level
    1. If you want to group with people, you have some flexibility to "change" your level to allow for more grouping options
    2. It's confusing as **** trying to put a group together to maintain xp
    3. It discourages players from using their capped destines all together. You'll be told to spec out of it, or just not come because you'll be applying an xp hit.
    4. Soloists will find it difficult to max out destiny lines without grouping and running epic hard and epic elite for xp as long as most (all?) epic normal quests are flagged as level 21. On a similar note, more casual players will be forced to run higher difficulties of quests in order to proceed. For heroic tiers, we have normal to run from 1 -20.
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  3. #23
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Two biggest problems with the suggested implementation:

    1. Those that do not have the xpac are going to be segregated from those that do. BAD IDEA. Please consider this.

    2. This is an unnecessarily complicated and convoluted system that makes little to no sense. Character level is character level. Destinies are nothing more than the action points Turbine decided to make pay only that SHOULD have come with epic levels anyhow.

    I can't stress enough how bad the proposed idea is!!

    Suggestions:

    1. Get rid of lvl 21-25 level penalties alltogether.
    For all intents and purposes, anyone that is 20-25 should be treated epic xp wise as equals. Period.

    Failing that,

    2. Make heroic level + epic level = character level.
    This is simple, intuitive, and logical.
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  4. #24
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    If this is just to see xp penalty for the quest level. I could get behind it except for the "Hard to Kill" changes on epic hard/Elite, but understand the purpose and think it is ultimately ok.

    If it is to apply to xp penalties for running your 25 with your level 20 friend. I do not like it at all.
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  5. #25
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    What he said. Involving epic destinies that some have access to and others don't, that can be easily switched from day to day and without being noticeable when grouping would make joining an LFM rather hit or miss. Can you imagine the confusion if a L20 with 5 levels of ED is grouped with a Level 25 who didn't purchase the ED pack, and the L25 is power levelled? The scenario will be possible in the future if ED levels are added to heroic levels, but epic levels are not. So get rid of the penalties or remove ED's from the calc in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Suggestions:

    1. Get rid of lvl 21-25 level penalties alltogether.
    For all intents and purposes, anyone that is 20-25 should be treated epic xp wise as equals. Period.

    Failing that,

    2. Make heroic level + epic level = character level.
    This is simple, intuitive, and logical.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    So those people that decide to never buy destinies are forever capped at 20, as far as xp goes...

    I would be most in favor of ditching all the level-based penalties for epic, they just don't make a lot of sense there.
    Last edited by MrkGrismer; 06-08-2012 at 01:31 PM.


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  7. #27
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    geeezzzzzzz.... This is kinda confusing. How about we are called whatever level we are currently on? Kinda logical......... We are getting actual levels from 21-25, aren't we???

  8. #28
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    geeezzzzzzz.... This is kinda confusing. How about we are called whatever level we are currently on? Kinda logical......... We are getting actual levels from 21-25, aren't we???
    Level 21 - 25 are for technical and aesthetic purposes only so that we can't claim Turbine is charging both f2p and VIP's to actually progress through the sale of epic destinies where the actual power lies after level 20.

    Ok, that's my "tin foil hat" comment for the day.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.
    Quote Originally Posted by nivarch View Post
    I have a few concerns:

    1/ Aren't some destiny enhancements supposed to have a minimum level?
    If yes, how do you handle this? It would be bad to be considered level 25 because you have a level 5 active ED, but can't use any of the top tier enhancements since you are only level 20.

    2/ Items still have a ML based on character level, level 25 characters will probably be much more powerful than level 20 because they will have access to end game gear.
    Can't this be an issue?:
    - A level 20 TR with a level 5 ED will be considered level 25 but won't be able to equip his gear (and don't tell me to change ED, there is a time where you'll have all ED capped...) so he will have a penalty in lower level quests and won't be strong enough for higher level ones
    - A level 25 with a level 0 ED will be considered level 20, but will be able to steamroll any level 20 content because of his gear (this is not a major concern tho)


    However I love the fact that you could swap ED to be able to lower your level to run with friends. Yet this won't work eternally since, as previously mentioned, you'll cap all destinies one day or another.

    Edit: Best solution for me would be to completly remove penalty. It's only 5 levels, so shouldn't be a big deal, and would avoid the worst issue (the one where people with a high ED level take an xp penalty while they are still leveling their character level).
    As Nivarch stated, this will penalize people who TR. Wasn't it stated in Beta that the Destinies would not be penalizing TRs? Wasn't some of the concerns about TRing after unlocking and advancing Destinies then TRing was the inability to access the unlocked abilities?

    If you are adding penalties for accessing Destinies and TRing, then you are backtracking from your original position. Either remove the penalties or allow TRs to access to all the unlocked abilities in the Destiny.

  10. #30
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Anyone who doesn't have the destinies should NOT be penalized for playing with those that do. Please avoid further segregation of the player base between the haves and have nots.
    This does indeed seem obscenely unfair to the F2P or Premium who are still working on getting their EDs enabled. Having to buy / grind out the TP in order to advance your character isn't such a big deal. This is a business, after all, not a charity. But it won't take too long before all of the LFMs want 22-25 in this proposed system. Leaving anyone who does not have their Epic Destinies unable to join the majority of LFMs for the content that they have already purchased.

    It was stated before that there would be no power leveling penalties for epic levels. What is the reasoning for changing this? You say that it is to provide flexibility, but originally we were told that level 20s and level 25s would be able to group together without issue. That seems a lot more flexible than this. It is kind of hard to think critically about this without understanding why there is this departure from what was already stated.
    Last edited by THOTHdha; 06-08-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)
    This is very unintuative.
    What about those that don't have ED's purchased? Will they be perma-capped at 20 as far as epic xp penalties go?
    Will we be able to set lfm's for specific destiny levels?
    Will we be able to inspect a character and see their ED level?
    Will we see the active ED level when applying to an lfm or looking at those applying?

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.
    In order for this 'level' 24 character to not take a penalty they have to run level 24+ content. This would be ok IF certain abilities in the ED's weren't tied to actual levels and if gear ML was calculated this was as well. As it is now a character that hits 20 and activates a level 4 destiny has to run level 24+ content without some of the abilities that supposedly make them level 24. Their gear would also not be able to be equipped as they are still level 20 and ML gear is calcualted by heroic level + epic level = character level needed to equip.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.
    This is nice, but what happens when all your unlocked destinies are tier 3? Also I really don't want to switch to an unsynergystic ED just to get into groups.

    I think the best solution would be just to make all characters at levels 21 and higher count as 'epic' characters applying no penalties for xp'ing with any other 'epic' character while still applying the epic level + heroic level = character level appropriate penalty to heroic characters in the group. That way 21's can party with 25's at no penalty while also applying a penatly to any 17's that said character groups with.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    Hopefully the earlier part won't sound to negative but those are the questions that popped into my head when I read your post.

    P.S.
    Is anything being done with the epic timer(I'd like to see it removed or reduced to 2 hours)?
    Or will we have a fixed number of quests(until a whole bunch more are released at a later date) we can run each day for epic xp before we need to run epic challenges?
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  12. #32
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avidus View Post
    Is anything being done with the epic timer(I'd like to see it removed or reduced to 2 hours)??
    When I ran both the closed and the open beta, timers on epics did not exist.
    I was even able to recall out of an epic quest, and immediately go back in. (Did this just to test.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    I was under the impression that character levels 21-25, and destiny teirs werent combined in anyway, apart from the exp gained from a quest went to both the destiny and character equally. so why base a penalty off of a destiny instead of just the character levels?

    if you go heroic leve + epic level, then people could use their destinies (any tier that they wanted) based on their actual character level and thus make grouping with people easier and more fun. I for one would like to have a t5 destiny without causing anyone to take a hit to xp or getting a hit myself (by the proposed method I'd be lvl 25 when determining a penalty, Yet my character level would most likely be much lower since a destiny tier doesnt equal a full level).

    It'd be better off as heroic levels + epic levels, Leave the destiny tiers out of it.

  14. #34
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    It should be heroic levels + epic levels, and there should be NO xp hit when grouping with levels 20-25. Honestly, with the open beta changes, I'd swear Turbine is trying to kill grouping completely.
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  15. #35
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    Also, according to reports from this thread: (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377241) Ranks are accounted for the xp penalty instead of actual level now, I hope that this isnt WAI, and merely a bug resulting from the proposed method of epic exp.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace_ana View Post
    It should be heroic levels + epic levels, and there should be NO xp hit when grouping with levels 20-25. Honestly, with the open beta changes, I'd swear Turbine is trying to kill grouping completely.
    This.

    Just make grouping with 20-25 no penalty at all.

  17. #37
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    When I ran both the closed and the open beta, timers on epics did not exist.
    I was even able to recall out of an epic quest, and immediately go back in. (Did this just to test.)
    Thank you for paying attention to that. I completely missed it. I hope this is intended and stays this way.
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  18. #38
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We do this to provide flexibility.
    I just want to chime in and agree with the others here - the massive confusion this will cause is not worth the gain in flexibility. Epic character levels are already strange enough, but to all of a sudden make people need to look at epic destiny levels...it's really confusing.

    Either treat everyone 20+ as 20, or make character level = character level. Neither is ideal, but they are better than the proposed system.

  19. #39
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    I dont understand why at this point in the games life all 20+ are treated the same. I mean there are still repatition penalties right?
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  20. #40
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    I want to clear up something about how XP penalties work for epic levels.

    For the purposes of determining whether there will be an XP penalty, we calculate a player's level this way:

    # Heroic Levels + # Active Destiny Levels

    (or 20 + active destiny level)

    We do this to provide flexibility. This means someone that has, say, a level 4 destiny and TR's, once he hits level 20, if he makes that destiny active, he's considered level 24.

    Conversely a level 25 player can switch to a new destiny and be considered level 20 for the purposes of XP penalties.

    We welcome feedback on this, especially the constructive kind.
    This sounds like the sort of random decision that is floated in a meeting just so that everyone can disagree with it, and it's then withdawn as a highly visible act of "listening and taking your feedback onboard" that can later be referred to as the "see, we do listen to you" example.

    Unless I'm really missing something, this has to be filed under "Unnecessarily Convoluted" and buried somewhere. KISS.

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