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  1. #121
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    Yeah I care about spell pen, but when my spell pen was 32 pre-expansion and it jumped to at least 38 without an ED in post expansion (no changes to gear) why do you care? Seriously, there is no reason you need to take more spell pen.

    Also having lower cooldowns still is useful. Half the time I don't even realize that Wail or CoD are off timer, but I suppose it's because I use different spells too and don't just rely on them.

    And 15% might seem low, but really it's not. It procs often if you use your necro spells (more if your a pm). Besides percents in this game are wonky anyway. Torc has a 1% chance to proc but it procs way more than 1%, same with the concord op.

    If you want to have more fun with an ED, don't play the magister one. That's why you can take either Int or Cha in DI and twist in the +3 spell pen and dc's.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    It's still a benefit. Is it the best omg ability now I am a god? No but you said it was a pm benefit only I gave multiple instances where it works on all necro spells regardless of your prestige. Please keep that in mind before you respond.
    In response to "I succeed a lot more with Necrotic Rays and SLA's", I said "the Necrotic Ray/SLA benefit" was PM only. I never said this tree was for PM only benefit. In fact, I have said *multiple* times that this tree benefits PM's far more than AM's, implying that the tree give some benefit to AM's. You're losing track of the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    And I seem to remember necro AM's get to freely cast around some necro spells too if they so choose.
    Technically, yes, the AM could take some worthless SLAs to get a little more use out of this. Chill Touch is on a 6 second cooldown, and is hardly spammable. So we're talking about climbing a basically worthless SLA tree nobody ever takes at a SP cost to try to eek some benefit out of this junk. The second tier is Command Undead, so that won't work. Up to Tier III then? No, that's Halt Undead. So it'd be Tier IV to rotate Chill Touch and Enervation. Yeah, that sounds great.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Yeah I care about spell pen, but when my spell pen was 32 pre-expansion and it jumped to at least 38 without an ED in post expansion (no changes to gear) why do you care? Seriously, there is no reason you need to take more spell pen.
    So where did the +6 boost to your Spell Pen come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Also having lower cooldowns still is useful. Half the time I don't even realize that Wail or CoD are off timer, but I suppose it's because I use different spells too and don't just rely on them.
    It sounds like the few seconds off CoD and Wail is doing nothing for you, then. That's my experience. Thanks for underwriting my point that the reduced cooldown is pretty lamesauce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    And 15% might seem low, but really it's not. It procs often if you use your necro spells (more if your a pm). Besides percents in this game are wonky anyway. Torc has a 1% chance to proc but it procs way more than 1%, same with the concord op.
    Percents in this game are wonky? That's why I should think this is worth the insane AP investment? Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    If you want to have more fun with an ED, don't play the magister one.
    Thanks for the advice.
    Last edited by Faent; 07-11-2012 at 11:46 AM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    The only place it's a big benefit to pm's is as a raid boss debuffer. This debuff is much more for melees to help land sunders and monks to land their -25% fort etc than it does anything for the wizard (they do get a bit of improved sla dmg usually but often minimal in dmg difference.)
    Hmm. That looks disingenuous to me, but whatever. If that's the primary benefit, then the primary benefit is pretty darn lame for an Archmage. It might justify taking Chill Touch, however. On average, you could land the debuff once every 42 seconds by rotating in that worthless SLA.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    In response to "I succeed a lot more with Necrotic Rays and SLA's", I said "the Necrotic Ray/SLA benefit" was PM only. I never said this tree was for PM only benefit. In fact, I have said *multiple* times that this tree benefits PM's far more than AM's, implying that the tree give some benefit to AM's. You're losing track of the thread.
    I just checked and the thread is magister feedback pretty sure I wasn't talking about shadowdancer thread policeman sir.

    Multiple people have stated they see benefit to the debuff, if you don't like it fine don't take it. If you want stuff above it on the chain then take the prereqs, it's not the first time in DDO someone has to take something they found less desirable to get something they wanted.

    Personally I don't care that much for the debuff but I'll spend the three points to get access to faster cooldowns and more spell pen and significantly better necrotic rays. Now if the nullstrike garbage was replaced with something else sure I'd have some decisions to make but that's a decision for if they ever change it.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    So where did the +6 boost to your Spell Pen come from? Dunno, I haven't taken anything that boosts Spell Pen yet (Epic Spell Pen when I level to 24 to bring it up to 47, not that I need it I just don't have much other choices for epic feats)

    It sounds like the few seconds off CoD and Wail is doing nothing for you, then. Sometimes I'm waiting on the cooldown too, it depends if I'm distracted by other things in the game

    Percents in this game are wonky? That's why I should think this is worth the insane AP investment? Sorry.
    That's your choice but frankly 15% is huge when you compare it to something like a torc that only has a 1% chance to proc, 2 at best. And the torc procs quite often considering.


    Thanks for the advice. No problem
    Responses to your quote in red.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    I just checked and the thread is magister feedback pretty sure I wasn't talking about shadowdancer thread policeman sir.
    ::sigh:: I'm not policing the thread. I'm pointing out that your response to me misquoted me. You claimed that I said some of the Magister stuff was a PM only benefit, when what I said was the Necrotic Bolt/SLA benefit was PM only.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Multiple people have stated they see benefit to the debuff, if you don't like it fine don't take it. If you want stuff above it on the chain then take the prereqs, it's not the first time in DDO someone has to take something they found less desirable to get something they wanted.
    The point is that the AP cost is too high. You have completely failed to address this.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Personally I don't care that much for the debuff but I'll spend the three points to get access to faster cooldowns and more spell pen and significantly better necrotic rays.
    The Spell Pen sits 9 AP's beyond the most useful benefit of the pathway, which is tier one. And yes, as I've said ten million times, some of those junky 6 AP's between Tier I and IV are slightly better for PM's. They're junky for AM's.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Responses to your quote in red.
    Mr. "Who Cares About Spell Pen" claims to have a 46 Spell Pen, doesn't know where it came from, says it was magically boosted by 6 without any gear swaps or ED's, and plans to take Epic Spell Pen even though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Who cares about Spell Pen anymore?
    Interesting.

  9. #129
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    I'd say as a general design principle moving forward:

    12-AP lines for boosting any arbitrarily selected school in the same manner, regardless of whether their lists allow for spam-ability or not might be something to avoid.

    Good enough for an initial broad-brushstroke, but perhaps it'd be useful to revisit the strengths of each school for that tree. and tweak accordingly.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Responses to your quote in red.
    Torc doesn't proc 1% of the time. The Torc procs around 15% of the time. Concordant Opposition procs around 4% of the time.

    It's understandable that you would overvalue the debuffs if you think that the Torc only procs 1-2% of the time.

  11. #131
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    Your wrong, I don't actually care about spell pen. Before U14 sure I did. Post U14 I don't. Simply because I got 6 spell pen from thin air, and another 4 from epic feat which I really didn't have many other options for epic feats. And an additional 4 from my current epic levels.

    And I got all the reg feats I wanted already. Epic Necro focus... ooo +1 for a feat slot, Great Int or Con. Worthless as my stats were even, and I wasn't eligible for epic mental toughness, and took toughness already.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  12. #132
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    That's an 11 AP pathway, all of which looks like something no caster would ever want. You're close here, except that all of that is junk, including the Energy Vortex. This pathway resembles the left half of the Magister Destiny, i.e., basically worthless garbage for any caster. And pretty much worthless for everyone else.
    Energy Sheath is pretty much the only one I would want lol. But compare the Draconic tree to Magister, and one can see that Magister is much weaker in comparison as far as the cost-benefits.
    Still, my concern is all the prerequisites. They make the tree less desirable for anyone that is not a wizard, and pretty much alienate everyone else. At least, as a wizard, you always have spell focus feats and did not need to take past lives in order to make room for them.
    For now, I'd say twist into Draconic, Shiradi or Sentinel until Magister is brought up to speed.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Your wrong, I don't actually care about spell pen. Before U14 sure I did. Post U14 I don't. Simply because I got 6 spell pen from thin air
    I suspect that you don't know how to calculate Spell Pen. Please post your Spell Pen calculation. Let's see how you got +6 Spell Pen "from thin air".

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I suspect that you don't know how to calculate Spell Pen. Please post your Spell Pen calculation. Let's see how you got +6 Spell Pen "from thin air".
    this really isn't the thread for this.
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon131313 View Post
    this really isn't the thread for this.
    Not directly, but we have someone arguing against reducing the AP costs of this tree on the basis of the absurd claim that they've pulled plenty of Spell Pen from "thin air". Challenging that claim is then indirectly relevant.

    Edit: BTW, the Epic Destiny Planner is slightly bugged. It permits one to take Magister abilities one cannot take. For example, you can max Master of School in the planner without having the necessary prereqs.
    Last edited by Faent; 07-12-2012 at 12:52 AM.

  16. #136
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    As far as I can tell I get +20 to my spell pen for being level 20 (possibly 4 more if epic levels give +1 as well)
    Then I have Wizard Past Life feat (+4)
    Spell Pen (+2) and Greater Spell Pen (+2)
    Epic Spell Pen (+4)
    Not shown above but I do have the +3 from heroic enhancements
    And sometimes +3 from the torc (Level 6 or below)

    20+4+4+4+3=35 (math without the torc or the epic levels)
    24+4+4+4+3=39 (math with the epic levels but no torc)

    20+4+4+4+3+3=38 (math without the epic levels but with the torc)
    24+4+4+4+3+3=42 (math with epic levels and torc)

    Also the torc is my ONLY spell pen item. It might not be 6 spell pen from thin air, but it is at least 4
    Last edited by Kabaon; 07-12-2012 at 09:06 AM.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Also the torc is my ONLY spell pen item. It might not be 6 spell pen from thin air, but it is at least 4
    Each Level of magister gives you one Casterlevel. You have 6 levels of Magister.
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  18. #138
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    Yes but my torc doesn't effect my FoD, or Wail. So if we take that out of the equation and add in the magister the equations would look like:

    20+4+4+4+3+6=41
    or
    24+4+4+4+3+6=45

    But since my spell pen is 43 for level 7 and above, and while it's not 6 spell pen or even 4 from midair, I'm still getting spell pen from no where.


    Karnasis (Human Wizard, Pale Master, Level 27), Taldall (Half-Orc, Monk- Perpetually abandoned)

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopeJual View Post
    I haven't seen any effect from Variable Resistance. I have two levels of it and I'm still taking elemental damage - even in a quest where I'm only taking damage of one element type.

    2 levels times 3 stacks of 10 resistance added to my Resist Elements of 30 is a total of 90 resistance against any one element. Why am I still taking elemental damage?

    Am I using the Variable Resistance wrong? Do I have to "turn it on" or something?
    Drow shooting and DoTing me trigger Variable Resistance. Traps (fire traps, etc) don't trigger Variable Resistance. Not sure why.

  20. #140
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    If you have only one Wizard Past Life, _your_ Spell Pen breakdown on Finger/Wail appears to be as follows:

    24 (Caster Levels)
    26 Spell Penetration
    28 Greater Spell Penetration
    32 Epic Spell Penetration
    35 Heroic Enhancements
    40 Magister Levels
    42 Wizard Past Life
    45 Master of School: Necro (three ranks)

    This appears to be one point off of what you are reporting. Your screenshot seems to show a 46 Spell Pen on Wail. Do you have a Lesser Arcane Augmentation IX item on? What armor are you wearing? The Shroud of the Abbot? That'd hit your 46.

    This is Epic Hard Spell Pen. And it's fine for Epic Hard. It's not Epic Elite Spell Pen.

    With a Spell Pen IX item you'll go to 48. If you twist in 3 Spell Pen from Draconic (since you don't have the AP's to get it yourself from Magister without revisiting your Enhancements), you'll be at 51 on your Necro Spells. If you get a Tier 3 Alchemical Stick, you can move to 52. For Epic Elite, you need to get even higher. (Looks to be about 58-59.) So maybe now you can see why I'm pushing for the AP costs for picking up Master of School to be reduced a bit. (And this isn't generic Spell Pen either! It's just Necro Spell Pen!)

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