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  1. #61
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post
    I've tried to be very clear with what I base my reasoning on. What basis do you have for claiming that fury would be comparably better against high fort? Can you show that dread in fact looses more as fort goes higher?
    The only useful basis for providing a compelling arguement either way is if you actaully tested it.

    The most important differences in all melee EDs is in what the text doesn't tell you. It's always been so in such a complex game.

    Basing any analasys off the text without knowing the real details is pointless, and thats exactly what the guy your argueing with is doing. If you are yourself, I dont know.

  2. #62
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    The only useful basis for providing a compelling arguement either way is if you actaully tested it.

    The most important differences in all melee EDs is in what the text doesn't tell you. It's always been so in such a complex game.

    Basing any analasys off the text without knowing the real details is pointless, and thats exactly what the guy your argueing with is doing. If you are yourself, I dont know.
    Yes, but I do analysis whereas you do not. I mean seriously you make blanket statements that one destiny is better then another. Then when challenged or asked to provide an analysis for why one is better then another and given specific gaming situations you do not provide any justifications for the blanket statement. That seems hardly helpful for the devs. With a week to go until the update they are not going to make changes of course, but hopefully they will look at these destinies one more time in the future and try to balance them at some point in the future.

    Why is the LD so much better then the Fury of the Wild and why in all situations? Do they need to nerf LD or buff Fury of the Wild and in what ways/means should they do so and what is the comparison so one is not too far behind the other and yet they still provide different gaming opportunities to players? Great job cataloging alot of bugs and discussing timers and durations which are not always listed in the text, but if you are not willing to provide an analysis so be it then you really have no complaints with others doing so. Testing does not = analysis i.e those are two different things and skill sets altogether.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yes, but I do analysis whereas you do not. I mean seriously you make blanket statements that one destiny is better then another. Then when challenged or asked to provide an analysis for why one is better then another and given specific gaming situations you do not provide any justifications for the blanket statement. That seems hardly helpful for the devs. With a week to go until the update they are not going to make changes of course, but hopefully they will look at these destinies one more time in the future and try to balance them at some point in the future.

    Why is the LD so much better then the Fury of the Wild and why in all situations? Do they need to nerf LD or buff Fury of the Wild and in what ways/means should they do so and what is the comparison so one is not too far behind the other and yet they still provide different gaming opportunities to players? Great job cataloging alot of bugs and discussing timers and durations which are not always listed in the text, but if you are not willing to provide an analysis so be it then you really have no complaints with others doing so. Testing does not = analysis i.e those are two different things and skill sets altogether.
    What analysis have you done? Throwing out hypothetical situations that we don't even have in game is not analysis.

    Even taking your 100% fort situation where all action boosts are run out (adrenaline would also be gone too and have to regen at a pretty slow rate) the dps is fairly equal and the dreadnaught has done significantly more dps up to that point.

    On my h-o kensai dreadnaught I have 14 action boosts each right now so that's 3.5 minutes of 30% haste boost that is selective use so you avoid burning it during any fighting downtime and the cooldown is equal to the buff. Then there's another 3.5 minutes of dmg boost 30%.

    Then I have 12 minutes of continuous immovable to keep my +1(W) up from innates for a total of 19 minutes of consecutive fighting (even a decent elob run doesn't last this long for consecutive fighting as you don't activate during jumps and stuff.) Even if those run out I still have 12 of the damage reduction buffs spread out.

    So if I have exhausted all those resources and still fighting let's look at things.

    Fury 6 base dmg from innates
    Dreadnaught 5 base dmg from advancing blows while not always up I would expect on a raid fight this is up 85-90% of the time as fast as it tiers up.

    Fury 1d8 additional dmg from tunnel vision
    Dreadnaught 1d6 base dmg from improved power attack (for a greatsword or greataxe)

    Masters blitz: If no adds 10 seconds of 50% dmg and 10 seconds of 25% dmg. If adds significantly more.
    Unbridled fury: 30 seconds of less than 25% dmg from glancings and 10 adrenalines (40x dmg where x is your dmg per swing)

    I can also guarantee blitz will be charged up by the end of the cooldown whereas its iffy if fury will be especially on thf which is where fury shines.

    Fury does get one adrenaline for every third vorpal meaning 1.65% of its swings it gets an adrenaline. So about every 60 swings you should get an adrenaline back meaning its worth x/15 where x is your base dmg per swing. Choosing a fairly high value for x of 120 you get 8 dmg per swing.

    Fury could possibly have the extra glancing blow and chance to proc effects but these equate to less than 2% damage per swing increase and are bad choices for spending your points.

    Sense weakness (likely to be twisted by dreadnaught)
    Lay waste/momentum swing (likely to be twisted by fury)

    In all this comes out to about a 10 dmg per swing in fury's favor. However the fury has spent two twists to dreadnaughts one. If I was a fury for my third twist I would most likely have either dmg boost/or extra action boost (can't even get haste boost if you have both lay waste and momentum swing). Dreadnaught has the option of adding the 3% doublestrike one from grandmaster and possibly tunnel vision. Those two add up to about 8 dmg per swing.

    As such it would take you over 20 minutes of constant fighting to make up for the advantage dreadnaught gains while it still has action boosts. So if after 40 minutes of swinging (significanlty more in terms of quest time) for some reason the quest isn't over or you haven't found a shrine the fury would finally overtake the dreadnaught.

    Then consider that we don't ever fight anything at 100% fort anymore. Fort reductions are common and once under 100% fort dreadnaught makes significant strides ahead of fury.
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  4. #64
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    The only useful basis for providing a compelling arguement either way is if you actaully tested it.
    No, just no. It's not sensible to test every conceivable thing under the skies.
    Do you diligently test every ability/weapon for every char upon login on the off chance that something might have changed behind the scenes while you were logged off? I hope not, it wouldn't be sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    The most important differences in all melee EDs is in what the text doesn't tell you.
    The text indicates what the devs intended, what they designed. You can use that as the sole basis for discussion. The need for testing is only sensible when it's reasonable to assume a deviation or when something is unclear.

    I think it's a sensible assumption that any obvious deviations would have been reported and that you could take most of it at face value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    It's always been so in such a complex game.
    Most of the descriptions have been fairly accurate most of the time, there has been bugs. This game is very far from complex, some elementary math knowledge and a spreadsheet/calculator is sufficient to get a good understanding of the mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Basing any analasys off the text without knowing the real details is pointless, and thats exactly what the guy your argueing with is doing. If you are yourself, I dont know.
    It's not pointless at all, if you're wrong on one account someone is bound to point it out and you can ammend the analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Testing does not = analysis i.e those are two different things and skill sets altogether.
    No, just no ;P

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    On my h-o kensai dreadnaught I have 14 action boosts each right now
    But you're not comparing dread with fury, your comparing you're h-o kensai dread with a what? sorc fury without any spells?

    You can't "give" the dread benefits from heroic levels and not give the same to the fury, that's simply not a sensible comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    As such it would take you over 20 minutes of constant fighting to make up for the advantage dreadnaught gains while it still has action boosts.
    And you have still not divulged why the fury wouldn't take the boosts or something entirely else as opposed to lay waste and/or momentum swing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    once under 100% fort dreadnaught makes significant strides ahead of fury.
    [/quote]
    You have yet to show that that is true. As I have shown, fury gains more from reduced fort.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Looking back at the last couple of posts we seem to be going off on off topic tangents and when not going around in circles.

    I think that we can agree that things are fairly equal between fury and dread vs. heavy fort and I have seen no compelling arguments that dread gains more against lower fort. This is good, after all, the dread gains substantial defensive advantages.

    The important information to be gleaned in this thread is imo that fury feels weak, it feels non-fluid. I recon (read fervently hope) that few players do as I do and "play the game by spreadsheet", to that majority, the fact that I can beat numbers against my chest and cry about things being equal isn't very important. If two things are more of less equal, but in one case you break the flow of combat, and need to go to great lengths to stay competitive, it doesn't matter that things are balanced on paper.

    I will still argue that adrenaline in combination with when combined with exalted smite or MS/IPS is crazy broken

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post


    But you're not comparing dread with fury, your comparing you're h-o kensai dread with a what? sorc fury without any spells?

    You can't "give" the dread benefits from heroic levels and not give the same to the fury, that's simply not a sensible comparison.


    And you have still not divulged why the fury wouldn't take the boosts or something entirely else as opposed to lay waste and/or momentum swing.


    You have yet to show that that is true. As I have shown, fury gains more from reduced fort.
    No I was comparing my h-o kensai dreadnaught to my same h-o kensai as a fury. Fact is I get 3 more haste boosts, dmg boosts, whatever and they have cooldown equal to their length. Plus a dreadnaught gets an addtnl +1(w) when he is under an action boost so each action boost is much more beneficial to the dreadnaught then the fury. this +1(w) lastes an exceptionally long time as once I run out of my haste/dmg boosts I have immovable boosts at 1 min each.

    Yes a fury can take the boosts etc and I even stated earlier in this thread they would probably be best to but in norgs case he was giving some overblown hypothetical where all action boosts would be exhausted so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and that he wouldn't have taken the boosts in that situation. However if they take the boosts they still do not get the +1(w) with it and they do not get to take the lay waste/momentum swing chain which even with 100% fort equates to almost 20% of your swings being +5(w) for a greatsword user that's ~7 dmg per swing.

    I don't see anywhere where you have shown fury get's more for reduced fort.

    Fury gets benefits from reduced fort on its +6 base dmg and adrenalines and that is it.

    Dreadnaught gets benefits from reduced fort on the +5 dmg form advancing blows the +.5(w) from imp power attack, the +1(w) from being boosted, the x1 multiplier on 19-20, the +6 seeker dmg, masters blitz is increased with crits, and the lay waste/momentum swing chian. All this gets better with crits.

    While adrenalines are nice with no fort you just don't get enough of them to top what a dreadnaught gets in no fort situations.
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  6. #66
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yes, but I do analysis whereas you do not. I mean seriously you make blanket statements that one destiny is better then another. Then when challenged or asked to provide an analysis for why one is better then another and given specific gaming situations you do not provide any justifications for the blanket statement.
    Because your argumentative in your approach and not helpful to the devs at all. Your questions all seem to be for your own personal gain. I'm not here to be your personal guide to the destiny. You should go test the thing yourself if you care. The fact you have so many posts in this thread yet never even tried it speaks volumes.

    I provided a VERY detailed skill by skill analyses, and suggestion for improvements to many of them. You should review the definition of the term analyses.

    It's a ton more detailed then anyone elses feedback.

    If not for my help and feedback the destiny would not be where it's at. Vargouille was pretty awesome about implementing many of my suggestions. I was purposely more vargue on the exact details here in my suggestions as the exact balance on melee abilities ALWAYS depends on all the small things, that I can't explain and that don't go into the text. So explained what as missing, and left the details up to him. I think he did well overall in deciding and coding those things. Things you may never understand.

    But I'm happy to report much of those things have greatly improved here since closed beta.

    I won't say its been up'd to exactly match Dreadnaughts power, but I can say that it is at least a lot less buggy atm.

    One big specific change I tested some more last cpl days:
    Combat lockup when activating unbridled fury is down to about 1 second from 3, due to removal of much of the log spam, some still remains tho. Plus lockup duration varies due to client memory leak - gets worse over time like all things.

    Also triple verified overwhelming force rank2/3 still broken. It ability never displays a timer, just lasts 1.5 seconds or so.
    Last edited by Shade; 06-19-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  7. #67
    The Hatchery jejeba86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Yes, but I do analysis whereas you do not. I mean seriously you make blanket statements that one destiny is better then another. Then when challenged or asked to provide an analysis for why one is better then another and given specific gaming situations you do not provide any justifications for the blanket statement. That seems hardly helpful for the devs. With a week to go until the update they are not going to make changes of course, but hopefully they will look at these destinies one more time in the future and try to balance them at some point in the future.

    Why is the LD so much better then the Fury of the Wild and why in all situations? Do they need to nerf LD or buff Fury of the Wild and in what ways/means should they do so and what is the comparison so one is not too far behind the other and yet they still provide different gaming opportunities to players? Great job cataloging alot of bugs and discussing timers and durations which are not always listed in the text, but if you are not willing to provide an analysis so be it then you really have no complaints with others doing so. Testing does not = analysis i.e those are two different things and skill sets altogether.
    Justice be done. Shade has provided extensive feedback on all abilities for the fury destiny, both over theory and practice. But most of it was done in closed beta, so if you weren't there, you can't see. The first iteration of the destiny was truly a shame. We made plenty of suggestions, and varg implemented many things based on that.
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  8. #68
    Community Member Dieterstrife's Avatar
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    Default Appealing for tempest

    Why not... since this ED has so many bonuses for glancing blows (and overall thf)

    Just everywhere there is a bonus to glancing blows, give the same bonus as a doublestrike chance for twf.

    Granted, I have not tested anything, nor do I know enough about code to know if this would be possible, etc etc etc.

    This would make all (a small majority of those who would appreciate it, as we will always remember that some people will never be pleased) the tempest and other twf builds happy for the most part. Or we can just remember that Shade is apparently king and all melee's will just take LD. (joking, of course)

    Also, I would really appreciate it if someone would tell me if adrenaline will work with ranged attacks and not just melee.



    ....and looking at it again, equal bonuses to doublestrike might become hopelessly op (100% in the capstone????) so this would need to be tweaked. But hey, it's just an idea.

  9. #69
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieterstrife View Post
    Why not... since this ED has so many bonuses for glancing blows (and overall thf)
    um not really. The only enhancemetns that affect solely THF are two of the worst possible ones to take, I don't think anyone would take those. Luckily there are not enough AP to do so anyways if you want the good stuff in this ED.

    The epic moment does up glance dmg sure, but in the grand scheme of things its a tiny drop in the bucket in a vast sea of DPS being added by auto-adrenalins.

  10. #70
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieterstrife View Post
    Why not... since this ED has so many bonuses for glancing blows (and overall thf)

    Just everywhere there is a bonus to glancing blows, give the same bonus as a doublestrike chance for twf.

    Granted, I have not tested anything, nor do I know enough about code to know if this would be possible, etc etc etc.

    This would make all (a small majority of those who would appreciate it, as we will always remember that some people will never be pleased) the tempest and other twf builds happy for the most part. Or we can just remember that Shade is apparently king and all melee's will just take LD. (joking, of course)

    Also, I would really appreciate it if someone would tell me if adrenaline will work with ranged attacks and not just melee.



    ....and looking at it again, equal bonuses to doublestrike might become hopelessly op (100% in the capstone????) so this would need to be tweaked. But hey, it's just an idea.
    At first I was going to start with an opposing viewpoint, with the mindset that FotW was ThF based.
    But, ah. It's actually not. It's rage based. There's no overall design specifically based around ThF in the design- it's an extension of Barbarians, and if Barbs ever get their Ravager/Storm of Kargon PrE, they'll have a TWF option as well. Likewise, having rage- focused anger issues, if you will- isn't based at all on what weapon you're using.

    So, yeah. I agree with your outlook fully. A great way to open up the PrE- and to make it be the Primal Sphere starting point for TWFers that the devs initially claimed it would be.
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  11. #71
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    A quick question for anyone who's played this destiny, what is the Rank 3 stats on Fast healing? I'm considering making it one of my level 1 twists for long term survival on my Monk once I unlock this destiny.

  12. #72
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Masters blitz: If no adds 10 seconds of 50% dmg and 10 seconds of 25% dmg. If adds significantly more.
    Unbridled fury: 30 seconds of less than 25% dmg from glancings and 10 adrenalines (40x dmg where x is your dmg per swing)
    I have a really really hard time seeing how you could end up with a 25% dmg for glancing and why you don't sum the benefits up. Also, MB is 15s isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post
    Epic moment vs. epic moment+addtitional adrenaline?
    Dread; at least 37.5%, fotw; at most ~20%

    What am I missing?
    Well for starters 15*4/(30*1.67)~120% and also that against heavy fort, contrary to overload smiting, the increase to glancing blows will be non-negligible.

    Now the wording is somewhat ambiguous, +100% could mean either
    A. +100% of base damage if you assume the wording is similar to that for adrenaline.
    B. 200% of regular glancing blow damage
    C. increased to 100% of base damage

    Assuming the worst case scenario you would gain some 0.4*0.75~30% of base damage and close to a doubling of weapon effects.

    I guess madmatt was correct, at least during the EM the fury seems to substantially outperform the nought for “the second spot”.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    In all this comes out to about a 10 dmg per swing in fury's favor. However the fury has spent two twists to dreadnaughts one. If I was a fury for my third twist I would most likely have either dmg boost/or extra action boost (can't even get haste boost if you have both lay waste and momentum swing). Dreadnaught has the option of adding the 3% doublestrike one from grandmaster and possibly tunnel vision. Those two add up to about 8 dmg per swing.
    Except that you would spend 10 fate points to be able to twist sense weakness and thus not be able to twist both 3% ds and TV.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    I don't see anywhere where you have shown fury get's more for reduced fort.
    It's on the first page of the thread, and it's not that hard to do the math that adrenaline gets tripled/quadrupled against 0 fort whereas the dread abilities get's scaled at the most by 1.5ish.

    Guess I'll be forced to show mine yet again ;P

    Assuming 80twd, 1002hf base damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    No I was comparing my h-o kensai dreadnaught to my same h-o kensai as a fury. Fact is I get 3 more haste boosts, dmg boosts, whatever and they have cooldown equal to their length. Plus a dreadnaught gets an addtnl +1(w) when he is under an action boost so each action boost is much more beneficial to the dreadnaught then the fury. this +1(w) lastes an exceptionally long time as once I run out of my haste/dmg boosts I have immovable boosts at 1 min each.
    1W would be equal to 6-12ish damage/swing depending on weapon, no cd on boosts will be equivalent to between 0 and 7-9 damage/swing depending on weapon as well as the duration of fights. If encounters can be dealt with within the span of a boost the advantage is 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    However if they take the boosts they still do not get the +1(w) with it and they do not get to take the lay waste/momentum swing chain which even with 100% fort equates to almost 20% of your swings being +5(w) for a greatsword user that's ~7 dmg per swing.
    Once again your lack of numbers makes it very difficult to evaluate the importance of your claims.
    You would generally do a cleave every 3rd attack, thus you would expect momentum swing to be available every (1/0.15)*3~20th attack, and lay waste every 20*(1/0.25)~80th.
    Making a cleave more often than every 3rd attack would not be possible for all builds, making a cleave more often than the 3rd attack would result in a reduced attack speed.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Fury gets benefits from reduced fort on its +6 base dmg and adrenalines and that is it.

    Dreadnaught gets benefits from reduced fort on the +5 dmg form advancing blows the +.5(w) from imp power attack, the +1(w) from being boosted, the x1 multiplier on 19-20, the +6 seeker dmg, masters blitz is increased with crits, and the lay waste/momentum swing chian. All this gets better with crits.

    While adrenalines are nice with no fort you just don't get enough of them to top what a dreadnaught gets in no fort situations.
    First off, you're both ignoring your previous analysis and availability of fate points. Secondly, you are yet again making bold claims without supporting evidence. Thirdly, you are forgetting the perhaps most important advantage of nought, getting +50% damage on helpless targets as opposed to the 30% of the fury.

    As previously stated, advancing blows + imp. PA ~ fury innate + TV, ignoring the possibility of misses. Fury takes momentum swing, lay waste gives a advantage of less then 1damage/swing, scaled by number of mobs. +1 multiplier is ~8-10 damage/swing, adrenaline 17-23 damage/swing.

    17-23 – 8-10 multiplier – 2-4 seeker - 6-10 ~0

    The nought get's ahead if the removal of boost cd has a (large impact).
    What we do need to take into account is that the fury starts off with some 6 uses of adrenaline, even if you assume full advantage of the cd removal, it will take some 4 effective minutes of fighting for the nought to catch up.
    Well, that's if you make the comparison in vacuum and don't consider the actual game. In DDO it is sometimes advantageous to kill some mobs quickly (read casters/bosses), fury will noticeably outperform nought in this regard. We need to remember that there are casters and AOE abilities instantly killing many trash, thus moving the focus of DPS more towards “where it's really needed”. If a important mob can be killed by a couple of furies pumping adrenaline, the nought won't have time to catch up.

    Thus imo, there is a slight advantage for the fury on paper but even more so when you take actual gameplay into account.

    This is all fairly pointless though, since it is more of a general comparison of the destinies, and has the implicit assumption that players are unable to optimize.

    No sane player would waste adrenaline on a regular attack, when they could instead use it on a momentum swing, for the equivalent of more than double the effect, the nought can never match that.

    Even that is a underestimation, since why would you stand still hitting mobs when you could just kite while plinking away to fill up that fury, then BOOOM HEADSHOTS EM+MS+IPS for even more?

    The overload smiter with hpick, imp.shield mastery and twisted sup shield mastery and +3% DS from MoF get's a honorable mention.

  13. #73
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post
    First off, you're both ignoring your previous analysis and availability of fate points. Secondly, you are yet again making bold claims without supporting evidence. Thirdly, you are forgetting the perhaps most important advantage of nought, getting +50% damage on helpless targets as opposed to the 30% of the fury.

    No sane player would waste adrenaline on a regular attack, when they could instead use it on a momentum swing, for the equivalent of more than double the effect, the nought can never match that.

    The overload smiter with hpick, imp.shield mastery and twisted sup shield mastery and +3% DS from MoF get's a honorable mention.
    Snipped a little, but wanted to make a few points:
    1) LD's +50% requires a boost to be active, does it not? In which case the base +30% of the FotW may win out - although if you have the spare boosts as an LD (which you should), hitting a +haste or +dmg boost would be impressive on top of +50% dmg. Either way, things will die quickly enough with either ED I'm sure. Mass Hold is going to be fantastic, as are eKhopeshes of Water and stunning blow/fist.

    2) haven't toyed with adrenaline much - I presume it's a "buff" of sorts, so your next attack will trigger it? If so, I wonder if the devs had anticipated adrenaline + momentum or even lay waste. A +5[W] 400% attack that's pretty much a guaranteed crit is pretty sick; and combining it with other abilities like Smite is downright silly. DDO is quickly becoming a whack-a-mole game of "hit ability boost, hit ability boost, hit ability boost, *HULK SMASH* attack, /loot".

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post
    I have a really really hard time seeing how you could end up with a 25% dmg for glancing and why you don't sum the benefits up. Also, MB is 15s isn't it?.
    It ups your glancing blow dmg from whatever you have to 100%. On a 100% fort target you have your main base dmg plus a 75% chance to do 50% dmg on glancings in most cases some pre's can alter this some. Unbridled will change this to 1x base +1x base on 75% of swings. So you in essence go from 1.35xbase dmg per swing to 1.75xbase dmg for a .4 increase. .4 is 29% of 1.35. The numbers work out fairly equal for magical effects also. Sorry if I didn't spell out the basic math for you but it is in no way a baseless claim.


    I guess madmatt was correct, at least during the EM the fury seems to substantially outperform the nought for “the second spot”.
    Can unbridled generate more extra dmg than masters blitz? Absolutely with the adrenalines but that assumes the blitz never kills anything. It still never makes up for the difference dreadnaught has outside of the moments.

    If dreadnaught does x average dmg per swing and fury does y. Dreadnaught gets a minimum of 15s of 50% and then another 15 sec of 25% for a total increase of 37.5%. Fury gets at best 30 seconds of 29% and then an additonal 40y for adrenalines.

    Consider a swing rate of 100 for hasted swing rate (15% yeilds a ~100 swing per minute rate for thf.) so over the 30 seconds we have 50 swings

    Fury: 50(.29y)+40y=54.5y
    Dread: 50(.375x)=18.750x

    Under haste boost this narrows quite a bit as the swing speed goes up to about 125/min or 62.5/30s for dread seconds -2.5 swings for activation at 20 sec=60swings/30 sec. Fury would get .66*125+.34*100=116.5 or 58.25 swings/30sec

    Fury:58.25(.29y)+40y=56.8925y
    Dread:60*.375x=22.5x

    Seems hugely in favor of fury but that is only if x=y. It doesn't most every dmg per swing comparison ran between the two yields y=.82x. I am not going to type one of these up on the forums as they are extremely tedious and take up a huge amount of space.

    If we substitute .82 x for y in each equation and then find the difference between fury and dread we get a difference of.

    25.940x for no boost
    24.151850x for boost

    Since each swing generates a .18x difference simple division yields the number of swings to make up that difference.

    unboosted=145 swings
    boosted = 135 swings

    Both are well under the 5 minute cooldown between epic moment uses.

    It takes y being almost 95% of x to get an equality situation where they hit equal again right before the cooldown wears off with no haste boosts considered.

    Remember average dmg per swing values of x and y don't reflect anything that ups swing speed like the extra boosts and things that dread gets.

    The above example is regardless of fort as that would be factored into avg dmg per swing although fort can change the ratio of y to x.

    If the dreadnaught gets one kill=huge advantage blitz.

    Except that you would spend 10 fate points to be able to twist sense weakness and thus not be able to twist both 3% ds and TV.
    Till august. and even then without tv it's still close enough in this absurd hypothetical laid out and much more ahead in other situations where dreadnaught doesn't need the 1d8 to be higher.



    It's on the first page of the thread, and it's not that hard to do the math that adrenaline gets tripled/quadrupled against 0 fort whereas the dread abilities get's scaled at the most by 1.5ish.
    Yes but adrenaline is a rarely used attack and it's not enough to counter the fact that every attack by the dreadnaught is receiving a greater benefit from reduced fort at a much higher degree where the fury player has to wait to get his all in one lump sum. Just like the above example comparing the epic moments the dreadnaught more than makes up for the adrenalines with its advantage on non adrenaline swings. No I am not breaking this one down I'll leave that to you as you have yet to show any relevant numbers either in a correct comparison.

    lots of other stuff saying my claims are baseless.
    I really don't feel like answering and providing detailed explanations of each one of these, I have had a much more rigorous week of work and would rather pop open a beer and go play the game, my claims gives the basic premesis and the math is fairly easy from there. Excuse me for not showing it and creating an overly wordy post that in all seriousness is something that is fairly visible just from reading the abilities as typed out.

    If you do a fairly exhaustive analysis and quantify the benefits of each of the abilities fury usually ranges about 85-90% of the effectiveness of dreadnaught varying +/-~5% depending on build/gear etc, with a few outlying non-game situations like norg presented evening them out.
    Last edited by LeLoric; 06-21-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Snipped a little, but wanted to make a few points:
    1) LD's +50% requires a boost to be active, does it not? In which case the base +30% of the FotW may win out - although if you have the spare boosts as an LD (which you should), hitting a +haste or +dmg boost would be impressive on top of +50% dmg. Either way, things will die quickly enough with either ED I'm sure. Mass Hold is going to be fantastic, as are eKhopeshes of Water and stunning blow/fist.

    2) haven't toyed with adrenaline much - I presume it's a "buff" of sorts, so your next attack will trigger it? If so, I wonder if the devs had anticipated adrenaline + momentum or even lay waste. A +5[W] 400% attack that's pretty much a guaranteed crit is pretty sick; and combining it with other abilities like Smite is downright silly. DDO is quickly becoming a whack-a-mole game of "hit ability boost, hit ability boost, hit ability boost, *HULK SMASH* attack, /loot".
    You can always have a boost active as a dreadnaught at least for roughly 45 minutes. Remember just being a dreadnaought of level 3 or higher you get 1 minute long boosts of balance and fortitude that are always off cooldown and you can chain haste/dmg/attack boosts for always on love. Even if you should run out of all these you still have the dmg reduction ones for a 20 seconds every 2 min boost.
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  16. #76

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    Gonna tackle a couple more of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by zealous View Post

    1W would be equal to 6-12ish damage/swing depending on weapon, no cd on boosts will be equivalent to between 0 and 7-9 damage/swing depending on weapon as well as the duration of fights. If encounters can be dealt with within the span of a boost the advantage is 0.
    First haste boost will never increase your dmg per swing it increases the rate of attacks. Dmg boost does but it effects dps at a differnet rate than haste boost would so just grouping them both up with a blanket number that is also largely dependent on build/gear/other factors.

    Second your advantage is not 0. The advantage is I am never on timer so if I boost finish one fight and move on to the next and my boost wears off I can reboost immediately. Unless you can finish an entire quest in 20 seconds or you somehow miraculously have no monsters to fight ever within your 10 second of cooldown but no activation.

    Once again your lack of numbers makes it very difficult to evaluate the importance of your claims.
    You would generally do a cleave every 3rd attack, thus you would expect momentum swing to be available every (1/0.15)*3~20th attack, and lay waste every 20*(1/0.25)~80th.
    Making a cleave more often than every 3rd attack would not be possible for all builds, making a cleave more often than the 3rd attack would result in a reduced attack speed.
    Momentum swing resets at a 50% rate for cleaves including laywaste.

    So it resets once ever 6 swings on average and lay waste will reset once every 24 swings on average. 1/6 +1/24 =5/24 or 20.8%

    A working knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a vital thing here.

    First off, you're both ignoring your previous analysis and availability of fate points. Secondly, you are yet again making bold claims without supporting evidence. Thirdly, you are forgetting the perhaps most important advantage of nought, getting +50% damage on helpless targets as opposed to the 30% of the fury.
    I didn't ignore the 50% versus 30% on helplessness. The situation I was comparing was a 100% fort raid boss. Tell me how many of those enter a helplessness state?

    A working knowledge of the actual discussion is a vital thing here.

    As previously stated, advancing blows + imp. PA ~ fury innate + TV, ignoring the possibility of misses. Fury takes momentum swing, lay waste gives a advantage of less then 1damage/swing, scaled by number of mobs. +1 multiplier is ~8-10 damage/swing, adrenaline 17-23 damage/swing.
    You are quantifying things from what? To give quantifying numbers for most anything here you need to have a basis off where you draw those numbers.

    First you use incorrect information (lay waste) then you just give a flat number for devastating critical when it varies drastically per character, and lastly your adrenaline numbers are way out of whack possibly another misunderstanding of how it actually works? Have you actually played either of these destinies?
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  17. #77
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We'll look into this. These abilities should work with handwraps, and if it's not that's a bug.
    Did you get a chance to fix this so the extra damage effects work with unarmed?
    42

  18. #78
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    It ups your glancing blow dmg from whatever you have to 100%. On a 100% fort target you have your main base dmg plus a 75% chance to do 50% dmg on glancings in most cases some pre's can alter this some. Unbridled will change this to 1x base +1x base on 75% of swings. So you in essence go from 1.35xbase dmg per swing to 1.75xbase dmg for a .4 increase. .4 is 29% of 1.35. The numbers work out fairly equal for magical effects also. Sorry if I didn't spell out the basic math for you but it is in no way a baseless claim.
    There are many ways to skin a cat, I never said that your claims were baseless, I merely asked how you calculated it.

    It would be equally correct to say that unbridled adds 0.75*0.5 as it would be to say the addition is 1.75/1.35-1.

    I'm sorry if this basic difference in the way I did the math wasn't apparent to you

    Also, I was under the distinct impression that glancing blows generally had a ~ 10% chance of proccing magical effects, more for wf/horc/barb iff you spend the ap on it. 100/10 is somewhat higher than 1.29.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Can unbridled generate more extra dmg than masters blitz? Absolutely with the adrenalines but that assumes the blitz never kills anything. It still never makes up for the difference dreadnaught has outside of the moments.
    Well I've quite explicitly stated that the sky is the limit for one nought assuming a coordinated party. Multiple mentions of "second spot", A working knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a vital thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    additonal 40y for adrenalines.
    But that's only for heavy fort, we're currently discussing the impact of adrenaline gaining alot against no fort. A working knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a vital thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Seems hugely in favor of fury but that is only if x=y. It doesn't most every dmg per swing comparison ran between the two yields y=.82x. I am not going to type one of these up on the forums as they are extremely tedious and take up a huge amount of space.
    Well you could use
    Code:
    to type things that take up space
    unless you're doing it by hand and not by computer. I have posted examples and I did not find it very tedious. I would be happy with a plain copy paste, don't need fancy explanations, would like to catch any differences between your calcs and mine. It's kind of central to the comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    If the dreadnaught gets one kill=huge advantage blitz.
    That would double the benefit of blitz, against heavy fort that would not be enough to put the nought on par during the moment, not even close with no fort. And that's assuming you waste adrenaline on regular attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Till august. and even then without tv it's still close enough in this absurd hypothetical laid out and much more ahead in other situations where dreadnaught doesn't need the 1d8 to be higher.
    Well actually, with the tomes I guess it would be possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Yes but adrenaline is a rarely used attack and it's not enough to counter the fact that every attack by the dreadnaught is receiving a greater benefit from reduced fort at a much higher degree where the fury player has to wait to get his all in one lump sum. Just like the above example comparing the epic moments the dreadnaught more than makes up for the adrenalines with its advantage on non adrenaline swings. No I am not breaking this one down I'll leave that to you as you have yet to show any relevant numbers either in a correct comparison.
    It's quite clearly described in the post you are quoting. The fury starts out way ahead due to starting with multiple adrenaline uses. As described in detail, the nought only makes up for it if there is extended fighting between shrines. The ability to decide when you use those big lumpo sums is not insignificant if you take the actual game into consideration. You can't make comparisons like this in a vacuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    I really don't feel like answering and providing detailed explanations of each one of these, I have had a much more rigorous week of work and would rather pop open a beer and go play the game, my claims gives the basic premesis and the math is fairly easy from there. Excuse me for not showing it and creating an overly wordy post that in all seriousness is something that is fairly visible just from reading the abilities as typed out.
    I'm not saying that your claims are baseless, just that you might be missing a couple of very important points. Also, you are likely more familiar with the exact details of the higher tier abilities. I have been working 60 hour weeks the last month or two and would rather spend what little time I have at home with the kids, or playing the game, rather than level chars on the test server.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    If you do a fairly exhaustive analysis and quantify the benefits of each of the abilities fury usually ranges about 85-90% of the effectiveness of dreadnaught varying +/-~5% depending on build/gear etc, with a few outlying non-game situations like norg presented evening them out.
    Yes, but the fury starts out way ahead due to having multiple adrenaline uses to start with. Also, as far as I can tell, it's less than 5% difference in most cases, if you don't use adrenaline optimally.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    First haste boost will never increase your dmg per swing it increases the rate of attacks. Dmg boost does but it effects dps at a differnet rate than haste boost would so just grouping them both up with a blanket number that is also largely dependent on build/gear/other factors.
    Of course it doesn't increase your damage per swing, you can however represent it as such.
    e.g. 100 damage/swing, 26.1% attack rate increase, the attack rate increase is equivalent to 26.1 damage/swing.
    e.g. rate increase A is 26.1%, rate increase B is 17.4%. A-B=8.7%. 8.7% of 100=8.7
    I did not post a blanket number, I posted a range, a estimation. Sorry if I didn't spell out the basic math for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Second your advantage is not 0. The advantage is I am never on timer so if I boost finish one fight and move on to the next and my boost wears off I can reboost immediately. Unless you can finish an entire quest in 20 seconds or you somehow miraculously have no monsters to fight ever within your 10 second of cooldown but no activation.
    My advantage? Your advantage? I thought we were objectively discussing nought and fury, not being all personally invested.

    And in the same way that it would be very unlikely to never be in the situation of having no monsters to fight during the cooldown, in the same way it would be very unlikely to always having monsters to fight during the cooldown.

    In fact the former would be more likely since you could zerg ahead while on cooldown, thus ensuring that the cooldown never came into play. That would likely be somewhat unfeasible though.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Momentum swing resets at a 50% rate for cleaves including laywaste.

    So it resets once ever 6 swings on average and lay waste will reset once every 24 swings on average. 1/6 +1/24 =5/24 or 20.8%
    Fair enough. As was obvious from my posts, I was not aware of the proc chance increasing with tiers. That does increase the relative strength by the nought, but not by overly much.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    I didn't ignore the 50% versus 30% on helplessness. The situation I was comparing was a 100% fort raid boss. Tell me how many of those enter a helplessness state?
    If we're discussing the benefits of reduced fort we're obviously not discussing heavy fort any more.
    A working knowledge of the actual discussion is a vital thing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    You are quantifying things from what? To give quantifying numbers for most anything here you need to have a basis off where you draw those numbers.
    I was quite clear with my assumptions. My errors should have been quite clear from the numbers I posted. Sorry if spelling out the basic math wasn't enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    First you use incorrect information (lay waste)
    Yes, it's 333% more potent than I thought! The equivalent to 1-2.5 damage/swing and not less than one as I thought!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    then you just give a flat number for devastating critical when it varies drastically per character
    I wrote a range, not a flat number. I was quite clear with my assumptions for 2wf/2hf base damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    and lastly your adrenaline numbers are way out of whack possibly another misunderstanding of how it actually works? Have you actually played either of these destinies?
    My adrenaline numbers are way out of whack? In what way?
    It's quite simple really; 100% damage +400% damage = 500% damage
    x5 damage x3 multiplier=15
    x5 damage x4 multiplier=20
    x5 damage x6 exalted smite multiplier=30
    15-<expected damage for weapon type>=benefit
    benefit/how many swings it takes to regain adrenaline=%benefit per swing
    benefit per swing * damage=damage benefit per swing

    What paramount differences is there between the available descriptions and how they play? How many things added by the destinies are significantly different gameplay wise from what we have on live? In what way does it matter if I have played them or not?
    Can't my possible errors be corrected by those who know better?

    As is obvious from my posts, despite my limited possibilities/willingness to spend time on lammania, I have at least logged on sufficiently long to verify that adrenaline does indeed work with MS+IPS.

    As a closing remark, I find it quite intriguing that you do not even comment on optimal use of adrenaline via momentum swing/smite/MS.

  19. #79
    Community Member zealous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    If so, I wonder if the devs had anticipated adrenaline + momentum or even lay waste.
    Word is that adrenaline+smite is WAI ^^

  20. #80
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    It ups your glancing blow dmg from whatever you have to 100%. On a 100% fort target you have your main base dmg plus a 75% chance to do 50% dmg on glancings in most cases some pre's can alter this some. Unbridled will change this to 1x base +1x base on 75% of swings. So you in essence go from 1.35xbase dmg per swing to 1.75xbase dmg for a .4 increase. .4 is 29% of 1.35. The numbers work out fairly equal for magical effects also. Sorry if I didn't spell out the basic math for you but it is in no way a baseless clai
    Just wanted to thank you for actually posting some numerical analysis. There has been an abundance of base claims with no justification in both closed and open beta. Initially it was obvious that Fury was far behind Dreadnaught, but as it became less so with some buffs to Fury it became necessary for a side by side comparison and thank you for beginning the process however late.

    Personally I just want two balanced destinies with some different thematic options. I have a blitz build 12 fighter 6 barbarian 2 rogue which is currently my main melee dps character and the blitz could go either fury or LD in a thematic sense.

    I would just like to point out that I like insult in a raid party quite a bit if anything that should last a longer duration but the 20% fort reduction is quite nice in a raid party. I would consider twisting that on a dreadnaught.

    Finally, I have to say that the three most likely raid bosses next update will be either a demon or shade or dracolich when looking at the legend and lore for the forgotten realms area we will be playing in. Since dracolich is a boss I have seen requested repeatedly on these forums and we are fighting a demon this update I would put the dracolich as #1 on possible next raid bosses just saying.
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