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  1. #21
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Dude, at a glance, you took all the really cool stuff out of Genasi's last pass on innates and moved it into the twistable portion. Pretty big conceptual change, if you ask me.
    First, I'd point out that my proposals were copied from the ones I posted on the closed beta forum, so I didn't take into account Genasi's updates.

    This doesn't stop "combines with existing toggle" from being even cooler.

    Heck, let me click it from the character sheet and let it stay on all the time through logins. That SB IV does, and SBs I-III don't has to be a bug.

    Seriously, there's going to be a lot more clickies, stances, and whatnot going on when this is all said and done ... arguing that it's "one toggle" is one thing. There's a lot of "one moar toggle/clickie/whatever" going on with EDs all together. Why not consolidate when it makes sense to?
    Sure, I'd prefer for the toggles to combine, but I'd rather have two toggles than not be able to turn this off at all. And there is a definite distinction between an always-on toggle you hit once upon logging in, and in-combat clickies, switchable stances and short duration buffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Let's face it: people that enjoy using stealthy play are FAR FAR less than the ones that stealth just to assassinate.
    While true, invisibility works for everyone, and is useful, especially the abilities here that give you Greater Invis for a short while.

    [/quote]
    Indeed. But 10% is still a T3 ability and not many people will get the third rank of this.
    [/quote] I dunno...a reduction of Fortification, AC (to-hit is going to matter), attacks (AC is going to matter) and saves? That looks pretty significant to me.

    Well, a stance might see its uses. However, 6d6 is still huge. To make up for that, id heal for 1d10/2d10/3d10.
    Remember, this is per hit. That's quite a lot of healing at 3d6 per hit. Vampirism is attractive at 1d3 per hit.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    First, I'd point out that my proposals were copied from the ones I posted on the closed beta forum, so I didn't take into account Genasi's updates.
    Then I'd just go with Genasi's updates.
    I think he did a great job of distilling the comments in that thread ... why start at the beginning again?

    Edit: Actually, we can start with Niv's compiled summary over here.
    Last edited by SableShadow; 06-07-2012 at 03:38 PM.

  3. #23
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Then I'd just go with Genasi's updates.
    I think he did a great job of distilling the comments in that thread ... why start at the beginning again?

    Edit: Actually, we can start with Niv's compiled summary over here.
    I should have just left off the paste of Shadow Training I-VI, and put in comments regarding Vanish and faster sneaking separately. That doesn't affect the rest of my suggestions/ideas.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    I was under the impression that assasinate bypassed deathward (I could be wrong), and that these instakills would do the same.
    If not, that should really be implemented, epic abilities should work in all epic content.
    Assassinate does not bypass deathward of any sort. Not the spell, not the item, not the inherent version on the CC mobs. As far as I can tell assassinate is coded as a spell. I assume the Hard to Kill buff will block assassinate as well.

    Which will make a good portion of the benefits from Shadowdancer, an EPIC destiny, not work in the most epic content (unless kill stealing is your thing, or if you really like sneaking around for no reason).

    Which is a shame, because I recently finished TRing my STR-based rogue into an INT-based one. Getting 48 DC on assassinate was not easy.

    Hard to Kill shouldn't be "Impossible to insta-kill but when under 50% you're suddenly vulnerable," but more like a scaling bonus to fort saves vs. instakill effects. Like full health is +20 to saves, 90% is +15, 80% is +10, 70% is +5, and 60% is no bonus.

    Or have assassinate bypass Deathward. I don't have a Palemaster so I couldn't care less how marginally harder it gets for them, and Wail is completely broken. Savants for life, quadruple digit numbers are sexy.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 06-07-2012 at 05:15 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Sure its specific. 3 (4 fit the assassinate dc gets added) of the better abilities of this destiny get huge nerfs if you step inside a difficulty higher than normal. This is specific in regards to how the hard to kill "buff" applies to this destiny.

    If this buff is to make it live then I highly suggest a change to executioners strike, shadow manipulation, and consume so that three of the top tier abilities in the destiny are not reliant upon instakills.

    Nobody really wants to play something that is only good on normal do they?
    Exactly this. Who cares if a million builds work on casual ... But only three on hard or elite?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  6. #26
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    It's not coded as a spell as far as I can tell, but as a death effect, and Deathblock, Ward and Epic Ward block death effects.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  7. #27
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Assassinate does not bypass deathward of any sort. Not the spell, not the item, not the inherent version on the CC mobs. As far as I can tell assassinate is coded as a spell. I assume the Hard to Kill buff will block assassinate as well.

    Which will make a good portion of the benefits from Shadowdancer, an EPIC destiny, not work in the most epic content (unless kill stealing is your thing, or if you really like sneaking around for no reason).

    Which is a shame, because I recently finished TRing my STR-based rogue into an INT-based one. Getting 48 DC on assassinate was not easy.

    Hard to Kill shouldn't be "Impossible to insta-kill but when under 50% you're suddenly vulnerable," but more like a scaling bonus to fort saves vs. instakill effects. Like full health is +20 to saves, 90% is +15, 80% is +10, 70% is +5, and 60% is no bonus.

    Or have assassinate bypass Deathward. I don't have a Palemaster so I couldn't care less how marginally harder it gets for them, and Wail is completely broken. Savants for life, quadruple digit numbers are sexy.
    There is no need to kill-steal on a ShadowDancer. If you're referring to their Shadow Marking, it doesn't matter whom makes the final kill.
    It'd be interesting if the tier 2 assassinate ability had special circumstances to it, thus making it still viable for potent use once you get the third tier version.

    I like the thought of scaling saves. It's much more natural, gives reason to buff DCs up past a certain point, and, honestly, more fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  8. #28
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    There is no need to kill-steal on a ShadowDancer.
    I was referring to Assassinate being rendered useless in the hardest content. A mob at 50% is either aggroed on you, thus unable to be assassinated (unless you're good with bluff. I am, at least), or aggroed on someone who has either done all the damage to it, or enough damage such that you haven't pulled aggro (thus assassinating it is kill stealing).

    Hard to Kill is an absolute joke. The thread against it is already at 24 pages, I would be very surprised if Turbine doesn't change it.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 06-07-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
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    This Destiny is useless. It used to have promise but now it's just another kick to the balls of rogues everywhere.

    Hard To Kill is absolutely ridiculous.

  10. #30
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    so, with hard to kill is consume and shadow manipulation considered death affects (would like someone who actually tested it out to to answer or a dev confirmation) if they are then those are kinda useless techniques. Being epic abilities, they should go past hard to kill even if spells like finger of death and such dont.

    also cloak of shadows, I mentioned it in closed beta, but 120 is a rather low amount of damage to protect against for epics, especially light damage. a divine punishment (not stacked) was doing over 50 dmg a tick, and im pretty sure there are 8 or so ticks, with each stack doing more damage and making it last longer. even if I had the cloak, I doubt I would've survived even a single casting of divine punishment from the mob. (never was given much of a chance to see since I was being greater commanded, feared, and cometfalled on constantly while it was ticking)

  11. #31
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    As much as I don't particular care for the new Hard to Kill mechanic that's been introduced, I'm disappointed that the discussion of this Destiny is once again being focused around instant kills. If the Destiny is just going to be based on instant kills, that eliminates Acrobats and Mechanics from this Destiny (again) and would only benefit Monks as the only other melee class. I'm pretty sure this Destiny isn't suppose to be limited to a total of 1.33 classes in the game.

  12. #32
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBenWalker View Post
    I missed why dexterity added to damage was cut from the shadowdancer... thought it was a good idea (perhaps better if you eliminate the "add dex rather than strength to attack". This way dancers are still left with finnesse weapons and the occasional special weapon that allows dex to attack. I liked that feature, any chance of it coming back?
    I thought this was an good idea as well. I was all ready to TR my strength based rogue to take full advantage of the changes and was disappointed to see that the character might have to remain as is. While I would personally love to see the dex to hit/damage stuff exist in this enhancement line for all weapons, a compromise in which it only works on finessable rogue type weapons seems reasonable and I think would be met by enthusiasm and little resistance. Having some form of the dex enhancements available makes even more sense when you consider the synergy it would have with the dex based insta-kill enhancement currently available.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    As much as I don't particular care for the new Hard to Kill mechanic that's been introduced, I'm disappointed that the discussion of this Destiny is once again being focused around instant kills. If the Destiny is just going to be based on instant kills, that eliminates Acrobats and Mechanics from this Destiny (again) and would only benefit Monks as the only other melee class. I'm pretty sure this Destiny isn't suppose to be limited to a total of 1.33 classes in the game.
    it doesnt eliminate anyone, shadow manipulation seemed to be a decent technique, a dominate that I believe was twistable, which had a death effect at the end or if they broke the domination. so any class could use it.

    and consume was their t5 epic ability. basically a 10s implosion effect. Which doesnt seem epic at all anymore if the mobs have to be at 50% hp for it to work. for the ability which was supposed to be the top tier it is basically useless if it needs to go against hard to kill. Again it does not eliminate any class from using it.

    the entire destiny isnt based off of those two abilities, the majority of it is about doing extra damage (though extra sa dice, unholy lances/t5 ability, 100% attack bonus ability, ability to have a chance at making creatures vulnerable to SA), and getting abilities to lose agro, and to avoid attacks. with extra skill and dc increases thrown in.

  14. #34
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    As much as I don't particular care for the new Hard to Kill mechanic that's been introduced, I'm disappointed that the discussion of this Destiny is once again being focused around instant kills. If the Destiny is just going to be based on instant kills, that eliminates Acrobats and Mechanics from this Destiny (again) and would only benefit Monks as the only other melee class. I'm pretty sure this Destiny isn't suppose to be limited to a total of 1.33 classes in the game.
    Erm, the discussion around instant kills is due to the fact that the Destiny itself offers 3 different instant kills, and those are made useless. The uselessness affects assasinate too (not the monk one though), hence it being talked about as well, but everyone can use them if they have this destiny, it's not limited to anyone.

    Edit: ninjaed by violith

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
    I thought this was an good idea as well. I was all ready to TR my strength based rogue to take full advantage of the changes and was disappointed to see that the character might have to remain as is. While I would personally love to see the dex to hit/damage stuff exist in this enhancement line for all weapons, a compromise in which it only works on finessable rogue type weapons seems reasonable and I think would be met by enthusiasm and little resistance. Having some form of the dex enhancements available makes even more sense when you consider the synergy it would have with the dex based insta-kill enhancement currently available.
    The dex to damage was determined to be better off as a heroic ability (feat or enhancement wasnt determined as far as I know of), but they did decide they wanted to move such an ability down into the heroic levels. So its not like we wont see it, we just wont have to wait for epic levels to use it once they finally decide to implement it (most likely in the enhancement update)

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    it doesnt eliminate anyone, shadow manipulation seemed to be a decent technique, a dominate that I believe was twistable, which had a death effect at the end or if they broke the domination. so any class could use it.

    and consume was their t5 epic ability. basically a 10s implosion effect. Which doesnt seem epic at all anymore if the mobs have to be at 50% hp for it to work. for the ability which was supposed to be the top tier it is basically useless if it needs to go against hard to kill. Again it does not eliminate any class from using it.

    the entire destiny isnt based off of those two abilities, the majority of it is about doing extra damage (though extra sa dice, unholy lances/t5 ability, 100% attack bonus ability, ability to have a chance at making creatures vulnerable to SA), and getting abilities to lose agro, and to avoid attacks. with extra skill and dc increases thrown in.
    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    Erm, the discussion around instant kills is due to the fact that the Destiny itself offers 3 different instant kills, and those are made useless. The uselessness affects assasinate too (not the monk one though), hence it being talked about as well, but everyone can use them if they have this destiny, it's not limited to anyone.

    Edit: ninjaed by violith
    Yes, there are 3 Instant Kills in this Destiny that everyone can use. However, I'm not seeing that discussion in this thread; however, I am seeing a discussion about how Hard to Kill is affecting Assassinate (an ability that isn't available in this Destiny, just a boost to its DC--unless it was removed). Unless there's a proposal to add Assassinate to this Destiny, I don't see why there's a focus on it here. That discussion should go to the Hard to Kill thread.

    Conflating the class Rogue into the prestige class Assassin was something I was able to get people to move away from in Beta. But it seems once again there is misnomer that all Rogues are Assassins. Yes, Assassins are superior to Acrobat and Mechanic. Yes, after the enhancement pass Assassins will probably still be superior to the other two prestige classes. But there are people who play those other two prestige classes.

    Again, if the discussion where to include introducing Assassinate as an ability for the Destiny, I wouldn't mind all this discussion in this thread about how Hard to Kill has hurt it. But since it's not part of this Destiny, the discussion about Assassinate should really be moved to the other thread.

  17. #37
    Community Member valarx's Avatar
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    Here is my feedback:

    Shadow Training I: Awesome core for this ED. Useful to just about everyone (except maybe casters, but this is a Martial ED).
    Shadow Training II: I'd really like to see jump enabled for normal sneak, maybe at 50% height. Then I'd be happy with this one that gave me full mobility for a short period in sneak (100% jump height, and 100% movement speed).
    Shadow Training III: Happy with this, could you make the toggle persist through logouts/logins? There's a few abilities I prefer just to keep toggled on all the time and only toggle off if needed. This would be one of them.
    Shadow Training IV: No input here.
    Shadow Training V: The reduction to Shadow Training II is very nice. Dimension door? I could scroll that if I wanted to, but it's a nice thing to twist of fate, and useful for those who haven't invested in Use Magic Device.
    Shadow Mastery: Honestly, Evasion at this point is a little weak. I would have put it further back in the lineup and made this level Improved Evasion. Maybe consider moving it up into the tree (although that is a bit cluttered). Consider giving those who already have the feat a bonus (+2)? For the vulnerability, this would be nice if it worked similar to other vulnerabilities, where it can stack a number of times, each time increasing the duration. I'm envisioning a bunch of rogues jumping a mob and dropping several stacks on it (due to nat 20s), thereby keeping it in a continuous state of vulnerability to sneak attack. I'm mostly concerned about the duration of the vulnerability stacking, not the extra damage, but that is a nice perk for teammates.

    Stealthy: Bonuses to Hide/Move Silently? Ok, not that flashy, but it works for the ED.
    Shadow Lance: Suggestion. Remove cooldown. Add activation cost of a Dark Shrouding charge (yeah, that means you'll have to add the ability to generate them earlier on too). Increase DC (half level is a bit weak, especially for a Fort save). It would be nice to see melee Shadowdancers throw these as a ranged alternative.
    Acrobatic: Ah, I see you want us to be tumbling through traps.
    Technician: Yes, please. This one covers many of the skills I'm trying to max out. The flanking to-hit seems a bit out of place though.

    Escape Notice: I really wish there were a way to do this with normal stealth.
    Lithe: Mostly excited about the Max Dex bonus upgrade to increase the amount of Dodge I can get in Light armor.
    Skill Mastery: This one seems kind of blah as is, expecially with all the other skill buffs in the ED.

    Cloak of Shadows: I'd prefer light resistance and negative energy resistance to protection. Protection will get burned off quick at the levels that you would use the ED.
    Shrouding Strike/Shot: I assume the reason this is written the way it is is so that it can't be combined with other clickable attacks (i.e. cleave, Assasinate, etc.). I'll have to play with it to see how useful it is.
    Meld Into Darkness: Auto-miss for a short time? Yes, I want!
    Grim Precision: Fortification reduction could be useful if it stacks. Dodge bypass is a bit low IMO, maybe make it 2%/4%/6%.
    Improved Invisibility: I've been looking for this for a LONG time.
    Pierce the Gloom: The +100% is nice in that it last for 30 seconds.

    Shadow Maniuplation: This is a nice splash of CC or aggro-grab into the ED. Gives it some versatility.
    Untouchable: Hopefully this is above and beyond the limitation on armor. Even if it isn't, it could still be useful with the previous ability that allowed for increasing Max Dex bonus on armor.
    Executioner's Strike/Shot: I'll probably end up using this as a secondary Assassinate, while Assassinate is on cooldown. It is an interesting way to let other classes play with Assassination.
    Sealed Soul: Ah, I can't turn down a good immunity.

    Consume: Neat trick, but it is basically implosion. For a top tier ability that just mimics a spell, that seems kind of weak. However, if there is a custom death animation for it, I'm in.
    Shadow Form: Another neat trick for the ED. Could some immunities be added as well, similar to what a shadow undead normally has?
    Dark Imbuement: For a Moment, this also seems a bit weak. For melees (+2d6 damage for 30 seconds?). The benefit is definitely geared towards ranged with the possibility of the attack doing burst damage. I'll have to see how the increased range for melee attacks plays out.

  18. #38
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    im pretty sad we have lost hide in plain sight perk. Really i feel its too iconic to that destiny to skip it.

    Also theres nothing to ranged on the rank 4, as it cant use doblestrike.

  19. #39
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavenaps View Post
    im pretty sad we have lost hide in plain sight perk. Really i feel its too iconic to that destiny to skip it.

    Also theres nothing to ranged on the rank 4, as it cant use doblestrike.
    I think HIPS comes as an ability on one of the later ranks of Stealthy or one of the other sneaking-themed enhancements. It may be Stealthy I - +2 Hide/Move Silently, Stealthy II - +4 (total) H/MS, Stealthy III - +6 (total) H/MS and HIPS.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  20. #40
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I think HIPS comes as an ability on one of the later ranks of Stealthy or one of the other sneaking-themed enhancements. It may be Stealthy I - +2 Hide/Move Silently, Stealthy II - +4 (total) H/MS, Stealthy III - +6 (total) H/MS and HIPS.
    In the closed beta it did (popped up at tier 3 of stealthy), in the open beta it isn't there anymore.

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