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  1. #41
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    In the closed beta it did (popped up at tier 3 of stealthy), in the open beta it isn't there anymore.
    yep we lost it.

    i hope its just a bug.. cause well HiPS its just toooo good and iconic to let it go.

  2. #42
    Community Member Rizzyn's Avatar
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    Hard to Kill seemed to be turned off last night, or my Party was small enough that we didn't Scale up into it. In any case...


    Rizzyn
    Level 25 Rogue; Assassin III; Weapon Finesse; INT-heavy; Assassinate DC before Epic Destiny? 40

    Shadowdancer

    We are getting the boost to Assassinate DC, mine is now 44. However, I don't recall seeing the text for this, though I do seem to be getting the boost. I double-checked to make sure it wasn't a buff or something I wasn't aware of. So the boost is in there, but either I missed the text or it is not there.

    The Actives seem to work, however there is a bug in Dark Shrouding. When you select it, you are given the choice of strike or shot. You can choose the 1st rank as Strike, but anything beyond that, once you accept your ED plan, it gets turned into Shot, which is a big problem if, like me, you're melee/rapier based. Also, we either lost Hide in Plain Sight, or its rolled up into something and the text doesn't make that readily apparent.

    I could not tell if Consume was working properly, but Puppet surely was. I had missed the line about the death effect, and we were wondering how to dismiss this last Drow, when POOF, eaten by shadows.

    Overall, I'm enjoying the destiny. It has provided me with improvement opportunities, and even a fair boost to my AC, and several skills. Hard to Kill, while not insurmountable will make some of the more tactical uses of the abilities included in Shadowdancer very difficult to implement. However, according to Dev Discussions last night, they are actively seeking a compromise regarding "Hard to Kill", and its related issues.

    Dark Shrouding is an interesting ability, and an interesting way to get charges, but I do have to agree that using it as a regular strike is problematic. I do understand from whence the "Assassin Mark" comes, and I understand that it is current deployed as a "curse" which means you can't mark something from a distance without aggro'ing it, which would defeat the purpose if the plan is to Mark and then go in and Assassinate in less than 6 seconds.

    Perhaps, in an effort to add more convergence with Assassinate, we can have this function in a manner closer to Undying Vanguard. That ability, under Unyielding Sentinel, tallies how often the Sentinel is hit to a stack of 500. It counts for the player, and at 500, the ability is lit and ready for use. (yes, I know this is bugged, but bear with me.)

    Would it be possible to make Dark Shrouding a toggle -- I know, not another one -- something that we turn on, and strike with, and then in this manner anything we strike gets Marked and if it dies in less than six seconds, we get the Shadow Charge. Obviously, I'm not clear on the code acrobatics of this, but it would seem to solve a couple of problems. With the damage and crit bonus, would this be overpowered? And if so, could it be an ability that we activate for 30 seconds, with a cool down, and then anything we strike inside of that time frame has the potential to be marked and therefor grab us a Shadow Charge.

    So, in closing: Dark Shroud toggle -or- clickie.

    Toggle is self-explanatory; it's on and always on once activated, in the same manner as say, Subtle Backstabbing.

    Clickie; CLICK! For the next 30 seconds any target you strike will be Marked -- so on and so forth -- kill any of these targets in less than six seconds, and you get a Shadow Charge. So, you can CLICK, Stealth in, and potentially assassinate.

    The trick here is this; if the Assassinate is successful, is the system quick enough to catch it and give us the charge?

    Thanks for you time.

    See you in the Realms,

    Rizzyn
    Deforming the Game in 5 uses, with a 3 second Cooldown and a 15 second recovery Rate.

  3. #43
    Community Member valarx's Avatar
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    Maybe Dark Shrouding could be broken down into two functions:

    1. Passive ability - anytime you hit something with a melee/ranged attack, it receives a 6 second 'curse' that if it dies within the next 6 seconds you get a charge.
    2. Active ability - This is a click attack that deals the extra damage/crit/etc.

    I think the trick is to make sure the passive applies BEFORE damage. That way, you can Assassinate and still get the benefit.

    Another idea:

    Make the passive ability an active buff that you can apply to yourself for 30 seconds, if having it 'always on' is too overpowered.

  4. #44
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Ok, im a bit of a fan of this destiny and find it really interesting to play around with. Only really got the one issue that its very hard to fit in consume and shadow form as the tier 4 and 5 abilities are odd amounts, not even. so fitting 3's and 5's into the 4 per level system while still fitting in the pre-reqs is a bit tricky so you have to either get a lot of low tier abilities and skip the better high level abilities. or put points into ranks of something you don't really want.

    If the intention is for us to be able to get any 2 of the tier 6 abilities at any 1 time then the ap costs/locations need shuffling a bit. Or maybe it is the intention to make it difficult to chose, if that is the case though I think you will see consume very underused as not many people will want to have to drop the 25% incorp to pick it up considering the hard to kill fiasco having an effect on consume as well.
    (looking it over again I don't think it would be possible to change even if you wanted to, that area of the destiny is kind of the backbone with the rest of the abilities stacked around it)

    Also when I picked up shrouding strike, I ended up with shrouding shot instead. I was very careful to pick up strike so it wasn't my mistake.

    As others have said the +6 DC boost is not in the text, but it is there. Was a pity to lose HIPS for it but ah well, cant have everything I guess.


    Also on a separate note, if someone could explain something to me

    Shrouding strike/shot (min level: 20) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 15secs) Melee or ranged attack: Perform an attack with +1[W] damage. On hit: Mark target. It if dies within the next 6 seconds, gain a shadow charge. Max +[3/5/7] stacks of shadow charge (at this tier)

    What does the bit in red actually do? I don't really understand what benefit it gives, at first i thought it increased the amount of charges you got from each kill but that seemed a bit much and after testing its not that. I'm obviously missing something so could use a point in the right direction.
    42

  5. #45
    Community Member Rizzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vazok1 View Post
    Also on a separate note, if someone could explain something to me

    Shrouding strike/shot (min level: 20) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 15secs) Melee or ranged attack: Perform an attack with +1[W] damage. On hit: Mark target. It if dies within the next 6 seconds, gain a shadow charge. Max +[3/5/7] stacks of shadow charge (at this tier)

    What does the bit in red actually do? I don't really understand what benefit it gives, at first i thought it increased the amount of charges you got from each kill but that seemed a bit much and after testing its not that. I'm obviously missing something so could use a point in the right direction.
    Hi Vaz,

    As I understand it the Shadow Charges govern how often you can use an ability requiring a one charge use. For example, Consuming or Puppet or some others use 1 charge. So, you use Shrouding Strike, kill the thing in 6 seconds or less, and get a Charge. That Charge allows you to use any one of those abilities 1 time, they all draw from the same Charge pool. So, at 1 point in Strike, you hold 3 charges, at 2 points in Strike you hold 5, at 3 points in strike, you can hold up to 7.

    What gets interesting is that there are some passive benefits based on how many charges you're holding. You'd have to read all the text boxes carefully to catch those, because I missed that first couple times around.

    A Friend in Shadows,

    Rizzyn
    Deforming the Game in 5 uses, with a 3 second Cooldown and a 15 second recovery Rate.

  6. #46
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valarx View Post
    Maybe Dark Shrouding could be broken down into two functions:

    1. Passive ability - anytime you hit something with a melee/ranged attack, it receives a 6 second 'curse' that if it dies within the next 6 seconds you get a charge.
    2. Active ability - This is a click attack that deals the extra damage/crit/etc.

    I think the trick is to make sure the passive applies BEFORE damage. That way, you can Assassinate and still get the benefit.

    Another idea:

    Make the passive ability an active buff that you can apply to yourself for 30 seconds, if having it 'always on' is too overpowered.
    [QUOTE=Skavenaps;4507865]yep we lost it.
    Dark Shrouding should be a clicky that works like Adrenaline: Hit this, and you gain +1[W] damage and mark the target of your next attack (the mark would apply before other effects, so you could mark and Assassin as one action). This lasts for 6 seconds.

    Or should be a targeting ability with no combat bonus. "Close range target gains a mark." This doesn't draw aggro or even provoke the target to start searching for an intruder.
    i hope its just a bug.. cause well HiPS its just toooo good and iconic to let it go.
    I agree, although I'll point out that HIPS is kind of bland in DDO. You gain less of a penalty to stealth while in bright light. Useful, but not stellar.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by valarx View Post
    Shadow Training V: The reduction to Shadow Training II is very nice. Dimension door? I could scroll that if I wanted to, but it's a nice thing to twist of fate, and useful for those who haven't invested in Use Magic Device.
    you cant twist an innate ability. plus ddoor scrolls are rather costly, 10k-20k on my server, so this ability, even though there are scrolls, would probably see alot of use even though my rogue does have UMD

    Shadow Form: Another neat trick for the ED. Could some immunities be added as well, similar to what a shadow undead normally has?
    shadow form isnt undead (although there was undead traits on closed beta), so while more immunities would be nice, they wouldnt really fit.

  8. #48
    Community Member Rizzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    you cant twist an innate ability. plus ddoor scrolls are rather costly, 10k-20k on my server, so this ability, even though there are scrolls, would probably see alot of use even though my rogue does have UMD


    shadow form isnt undead (although there was undead traits on closed beta), so while more immunities would be nice, they wouldnt really fit.
    I see a lot of usefulness out of D-Door, especially in the Underdark. We got so turned around, it was nice to be able to go back to the beginning.
    Deforming the Game in 5 uses, with a 3 second Cooldown and a 15 second recovery Rate.

  9. #49
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    while i was pretty content with 6d6 more SA damage when this destiny came out, i think now that it needs more. other destinies got buffed up and i think shadowdancer should follow them.

    also, activating SD's epic moment takes much more time then activating FoF's or LD's. not to mention that it's laughable calling extra 2d6 damage epic moment.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  10. #50
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzyn View Post
    As I understand it the Shadow Charges govern how often you can use an ability requiring a one charge use. For example, Consuming or Puppet or some others use 1 charge. So, you use Shrouding Strike, kill the thing in 6 seconds or less, and get a Charge. That Charge allows you to use any one of those abilities 1 time, they all draw from the same Charge pool. So, at 1 point in Strike, you hold 3 charges, at 2 points in Strike you hold 5, at 3 points in strike, you can hold up to 7.

    What gets interesting is that there are some passive benefits based on how many charges you're holding. You'd have to read all the text boxes carefully to catch those, because I missed that first couple times around.
    Ye, the passive benefits hidden in the texts were what got my interest peaked, but if you can only hold upto 7 with the highest charge, how are you supposed to get the 20 required for 'Oncoming darkness' :/

    There is either a hole in the system or I am over thinking this. Probably the latter.

    Thanks for the help though, I'll shell out the cash for a few re-sets and compare via trial and error. I am kind of annoyed at myself for not understanding it lol
    42

  11. #51
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    The dex to damage was determined to be better off as a heroic ability (feat or enhancement wasnt determined as far as I know of), but they did decide they wanted to move such an ability down into the heroic levels. So its not like we wont see it, we just wont have to wait for epic levels to use it once they finally decide to implement it (most likely in the enhancement update)
    That's great news. Thanks for the information Vio.

  12. #52
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    has anyone tried out oncoming darkness yet? Just wondering how the extended range on melee weapons works, as 2d6 damage seems tame for a tier6 ability.

  13. #53
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    The dex to damage was determined to be better off as a heroic ability (feat or enhancement wasnt determined as far as I know of), but they did decide they wanted to move such an ability down into the heroic levels. So its not like we wont see it, we just wont have to wait for epic levels to use it once they finally decide to implement it (most likely in the enhancement update)
    Yep. I wish they'd announce exactly when it's coming, though.

    For many non-Rogues, Shadowdancer would be quite appealing with the dex-to-damage so that we can focus on one stat (dex), instead of going str-based for now and then having to LR later to swap to dex-based :/

  14. #54
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    seeing how there aren't any real TWF destinies, might as well make this more appealing to TWF users. more offhand chance and more damage effects other then SA, like few tiers of 1d6 force damage, would be a nice start.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  15. #55
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    seeing how there aren't any real TWF destinies, might as well make this more appealing to TWF users. more offhand chance and more damage effects other then SA, like few tiers of 1d6 force damage, would be a nice start.
    Fury, Shadowdancer, and Legendary Dreadnaught are all viable as TWF destinies.
    Not saying they're all good - I'm just stating they all have TWF bonuses inherent in them (i.e. SD = sneak damage, which benefits from dual-wield; Fury = +6 base damage, plus rages and such, which benefits from dual-wield; LD = critical hit boosts, and master's blitz which works just as well for TWF as it would for THF).

    I'd love to see another TWF one come out, though - I've suggested the Ranger 4e destinies of Blade Dancer and Stormwarden, but there's so many in the books to choose from that they could adapt them for a variety of classes without too much difficulty.

  16. #56
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Fury, Shadowdancer, and Legendary Dreadnaught are all viable as TWF destinies.
    Not saying they're all good - I'm just stating they all have TWF bonuses inherent in them (i.e. SD = sneak damage, which benefits from dual-wield; Fury = +6 base damage, plus rages and such, which benefits from dual-wield; LD = critical hit boosts, and master's blitz which works just as well for TWF as it would for THF).
    in each of those destinies, every abillity that has 'melee attack' in their description, doesn't apply or even proc an offhand attack.

    i was refering to non base damage effects, which favor TWF more. aside from SD's autogrants and FoF's Tunnel Vision and Sense Weakness, there aren't any.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Yep. I wish they'd announce exactly when it's coming, though.

    For many non-Rogues, Shadowdancer would be quite appealing with the dex-to-damage so that we can focus on one stat (dex), instead of going str-based for now and then having to LR later to swap to dex-based :/
    I don't remember if the Devs actually gave a timeframe outside of "a future update". The logical guess would be when the new Enhancement system is released at the end of this year or maybe the beginning of next year. But the enhancement would seem to be when Dex would be added, along with maybe some Prestige classes gaining a possible Dex to-hit perk, such as Acrobats with quarterstaves.

  18. #58
    Developer Genasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I dislike that Dark Shrouding doesn't work with Assassinate. Dark Shrouding is an attack, that has to hit, and puts a marker on your target, granting you a charge if the thing dies within 6 seconds. Assassinate basically requires you to be sneaking and without aggro (even enemies swinging and hitting you incidentally breaks stealth), in order to work. This means that you cannot use Assassinate to trigger Dark Shrouding unless you are incredibly quick with DS, Bluff, stealth, Assassinate. Would prefer Dark Shrouding to grant a short duration buff that reads: On your next attack, gain <Dark Shrouding text>.
    Considering all the preparatory work that goes into executing an Assassinate, is there any reason not to grant a Dark Shrouding charge any time you successfully do it? Might solve the whole problem a bit more simply.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    The unholy damage this ED gets in a couple of places...is that types as actual Unholy damage (only harms good aligned creatures), or is it a placeholder for a different effect name? If the former, it needs to go, or get rewritten, as at least 90% of the enemies we fight in the game are evil aligned, and this would do nothing for Shadowdancers in those situations.
    The way "Unholy" weapons work is that the weapon itself only applies the effect when the enemy qualifies to be hit by it, hence why they don't work on evil enemies. I've tested the Unholy damage in Shadowdancer and it works against anything I've used it on, including evil-aligned undead and such. If any of you see it fail to work on a mob while playing, let me know and I'll check it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I like that an enhancement line was added to boost Assassinate, but the EDs aren't really tied to specific classes, so that should get expanded to also cover dark monk DCs, at the very least.
    I'll see if that's feasible and can be fit in (along with perhaps some of the others you mentioned like Touch of Death).

    I like some of your other ideas too, Seph, but truthfully many of them can't be implemented all that easily, like messing with the hate list, applying penalties to sneak attack dice, reducing chance to break invisibility, and so on. Although quite a few of the ones you reposted here did indeed work their way, in some form or another, into the new innate abilities (Dimension Door/Shadow Walk, tumble-through-enemies in Shadow Form, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Do I understand the tier 3 autogrant "Toggle: generate 20% less melee and ranged threat" correctly, that my rogue will now have 2 toggles which she will switch on upon every log-on? Or is there any kind of synergy with Subtle Backstabbing involved?
    The thing I was worried about here was that characters without Subtle Backstabbing would miss out on the benefit. I don't think there's any way we can have the system not grant you the new toggle if you already have Subtle Backstabbing either, unfortunately (if we wanted to have it augment SB only if you already had it).

    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    About the epic moment, what does that bit about 'increasing your weapons' range' mean? Can't test it myself since i have no access to the game atm but i'd like to know cause in closed beta forums there wasn't anything said that would explain it.
    You launch dark energy every time you perform a melee attack, which effectively increases the range of the attack- what this equates to is that you can hit mobs from considerably further away, and potentially hit more than one at a time. 30% of your ranged attacks will also release an explosion of dark energy that hits everything in its radius for 10d6 unholy damage. Still, it could be that the numbers are a little low now; I may increase the damage of the ranged attack explosion and the 2d6 unholy you get on all your melee hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    If Hard to Kill doesn't go away or a Rogue gets an Autogrants that bypass DW, this destiny is pretty much, let me say loud and clear, U S E L E S S.
    As you can probably tell, what exactly we're going to do with death effects is a bit up in the air, between Hard to Kill and Haunting. Once things are a little clearer there we can figure out how this ED should be affected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzyn View Post
    The Actives seem to work, however there is a bug in Dark Shrouding. When you select it, you are given the choice of strike or shot. You can choose the 1st rank as Strike, but anything beyond that, once you accept your ED plan, it gets turned into Shot, which is a big problem if, like me, you're melee/rapier based. Also, we either lost Hide in Plain Sight, or its rolled up into something and the text doesn't make that readily apparent.
    Yeah, the Dark Shrouding thing is a known issue that we've since fixed on our end. As for Hide in Plain Sight, I noticed the text for it wasn't in the Destiny tree (though it is on the third rank of the enhancement if you take it up that far), so I took the liberty of adding it back in. It should still be getting applied at rank 3 of Stealthy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vazok1 View Post
    Ye, the passive benefits hidden in the texts were what got my interest peaked, but if you can only hold upto 7 with the highest charge, how are you supposed to get the 20 required for 'Oncoming darkness' :/
    You get a charge towards the Epic Moment whether or not your Shadow Charges are already maxed out, as long as your marked targets die within six seconds.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genasi View Post
    The way "Unholy" weapons work is that the weapon itself only applies the effect when the enemy qualifies to be hit by it, hence why they don't work on evil enemies. I've tested the Unholy damage in Shadowdancer and it works against anything I've used it on, including evil-aligned undead and such. If any of you see it fail to work on a mob while playing, let me know and I'll check it out.
    But if the power is intended to hurt evil creatures, the description shouldn't use the word "unholy". That's the opposite of what "unholy" means. You could pick "bane" or "dark" or some other word if you're trying to label generic destructiveness.

  20. #60
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    But if the power is intended to hurt evil creatures, the description shouldn't use the word "unholy". That's the opposite of what "unholy" means. You could pick "bane" or "dark" or some other word if you're trying to label generic destructiveness.
    IIRC eventually in pnp they started using shadow as a damage type, that would be appropriate here, and avoid confusion.
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