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  1. #121
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    Speaking of instant kills, did anybody test for executioner's strike's proc chance already? Does it get to anywhere useful if you have all the charges? I'm actually pondering whether it might be worth it to take Shadowdancer over magister for some crazy PM build =)

  2. #122
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielhrobbins View Post
    Then these people really shouldn't be playing a rogue.
    Some people probably shouldn't troll the forums.
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  3. #123
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    That was suggested many times in the closed beta, but I think it was discounted due to technical difficulties (and billions of potential /stuck in wall tickets from it).
    I would love to see the ability to stealth, target a creature and execute a shadow jump + Assasinate attack that puts you next to them and immediately assasinates.

    Same way I would like to see Monks be able to combine Abundant Step and any monk move with a similar effect (stunning fist, quivering palm, any elemental strike etc)

  4. #124
    Community Member Rizzyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    Speaking of instant kills, did anybody test for executioner's strike's proc chance already? Does it get to anywhere useful if you have all the charges? I'm actually pondering whether it might be worth it to take Shadowdancer over magister for some crazy PM build =)
    You know, I did get a one-hit kill in with this ability, but I wasn't thinking about it at the time. I'll try to make more liberal use of it. I have assassinate now at a fairly high DC, and now that it gives shadow charges, I tend to make use of it more often.
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  5. #125
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    On a slightly related note, I still think dcs should be calculated from the higher of dex or int, to accomodate classes coming from different backgrounds. The current approach seems to be a high basic dc and then either dex or int, ignoring that the different classes that spec into this ed might have no other use for that attribute.

    For reference: Draconic Incarnation did it already, there the dcs are 20 + half your character level + your Charisma or Intelligence modifier, whichever's higher. Something like that would be awesome for this ed too, maybe scale the base dc a tad lower if you have to and then let us use what works well with the build we already have...

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    On a slightly related note, I still think dcs should be calculated from the higher of dex or int, to accomodate classes coming from different backgrounds. The current approach seems to be a high basic dc and then either dex or int, ignoring that the different classes that spec into this ed might have no other use for that attribute.
    Perhaps the single biggest problem with this game is that people can do exactly that.

    We coin redonculous terms like "MAD" and poo poo classes that require multiple stats at decent levels to work, ignoring the fact that "two stats n' go" (or even "one stat n' go") is precisely what's wrong.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Perhaps the single biggest problem with this game is that people can do exactly that.

    We coin redonculous terms like "MAD" and poo poo classes that require multiple stats at decent levels to work, ignoring the fact that "two stats n' go" (or even "one stat n' go") is precisely what's wrong.
    Regardless of wether it was right in the first place or not, we already have some combinations that can work off one stat alone, and some that must trade some of their damage for utility. Having both alongside each other just does not work.

  8. #128
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    mostly, the fact that this needs to work with multiple possible heroic classes means that giving it a broad base to build from is not a bad idea.

  9. #129
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Shadowdancer should probably work off of the higher of Int or Wis for its DCs.

    Is Assassinate generating shadow charges now? Is there anything in the descriptions of the destiny or abilities to indicate that? Does Quivering Palm do the same (it should)?
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  10. #130
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Genasi. Thank you very much for addding the profane doublestrike bonus as a passive tier 4 autogrant. This makes traditional finesseable weapons a greater contestant against khopeshes. However, even on a pure rogue halfling with the full shadowdancer destiny and the active rogue past life, the damage output of a rapier wielder will still be behind a Khopesh user, even under the assumption that sneak attacks always apply. If someone wants a sample calculation, if will be happy to provide it.

    Is it intentional that also for Str-based toons the Khopesh stays the clear favorite?
    If not, did you consider increasing the double strike chance from 3% to 5%?
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  11. #131
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Genasi. Thank you very much for addding the profane doublestrike bonus as a passive tier 4 autogrant. This makes traditional finesseable weapons a greater contestant against khopeshes. However, even on a pure rogue halfling with the full shadowdancer destiny and the active rogue past life, the damage output of a rapier wielder will still be behind a Khopesh user, even under the assumption that sneak attacks always apply. If someone wants a sample calculation, if will be happy to provide it.

    Is it intentional that also for Str-based toons the Khopesh stays the clear favorite?
    If not, did you consider increasing the double strike chance from 3% to 5%?
    Agreed.
    5% would be a definite nice boost.


    Additionally, any word on the heroic feat for dex-to-damage? Will it make it in for MoTU release?
    This was a key ability in the original ED version, and is appealing for many other characters out there.

  12. #132
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Additionally, any word on the heroic feat for dex-to-damage? Will it make it in for MoTU release?
    This was a key ability in the original ED version, and is appealing for many other characters out there.
    As I understand it, it will not come with MotU.
    Iirc, it was not said that it would be a heroic feat, but rather an ability which belongs to heroic levels. Reading between these lines, I expect this ability to come with the enhancement revamp (planned for U15, iirc) as an enhancement of the finesse feat.
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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Genasi. Thank you very much for addding the profane doublestrike bonus as a passive tier 4 autogrant. This makes traditional finesseable weapons a greater contestant against khopeshes. However, even on a pure rogue halfling with the full shadowdancer destiny and the active rogue past life, the damage output of a rapier wielder will still be behind a Khopesh user, even under the assumption that sneak attacks always apply. If someone wants a sample calculation, if will be happy to provide it.

    Is it intentional that also for Str-based toons the Khopesh stays the clear favorite?
    If not, did you consider increasing the double strike chance from 3% to 5%?
    There are enough dps feats now available that you have to consider the feat tradeoff too. Even without it consider the amount of sneak attack dmg available to a pure rog now. 10d6 rog levels 3d6 assasin 6d6 shadowdancer 6d6 2x imp sneak attack 4d6 capstone 12 sneak attack training 8 +5 sneak item 5 +3 exc sneak item

    So we are talking 29d6+25=126.5 average sneak attack dmg per swing. Add in your weapon dmg and all flags and you should be looking at roughly 200 dmg per swing on average. So that 3% equates to roughly 6 dmg per swing.

    a rapier versus khopesh comparison not counting burst effects and considering seeker value of 10 equates to an advantage of khopesh being 1.7+.1x where x is wour additional dmg mod. Solving for x yeilds 43 so it takes an additional dmg mod of 43 to bypass the rapier with the 3% if you don't factor in the value of a replacement feat. Even power critical feat would up that x value to 55. At these high of x values you are most likely over our estimate of 200 dmg per swing too so that amount increases.

    If you went with 5% then we are looking at roughly 10 dmg per swing, which takes an x value of 83 to bypass it which is virtually impossible for a twf. Add in that same feat and x becomes 95.

    I think the 3% gives a really good balance.

    Note in no way am I suggesting taking power critical it was a worst case scenario to take over wf khopesh.
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  14. #134
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    GHowever, even on a pure rogue halfling with the full shadowdancer destiny and the active rogue past life, the damage output of a rapier wielder will still be behind a Khopesh user, even under the assumption that sneak attacks always apply. If someone wants a sample calculation, if will be happy to provide it.

    Is it intentional that also for Str-based toons the Khopesh stays the clear favorite?
    If not, did you consider increasing the double strike chance from 3% to 5%?
    peshes are and should be better weapon then rapiers, but 3% doublestrike chance makes them less desirable, considering you have to spend a feat on them.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  15. #135
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    There are enough dps feats now available that you have to consider the feat tradeoff too. Even without it consider the amount of sneak attack dmg available to a pure rog now. 10d6 rog levels 3d6 assasin 6d6 shadowdancer 6d6 2x imp sneak attack 4d6 capstone 12 sneak attack training 8 +5 sneak item 5 +3 exc sneak item
    I understand this as a request for the actual calculation since I was including some of those bonuses already.
    I am still going to assume to hit on a 2+.

    Take my Halfling Assassin.
    Currently, she runs around with 34 Str, that is before Rage, Madstone, Titan's grip and before using the Litany the abbot is yet to drop for her. Thus, I am assuming 40 Str, i.e. +15 damage from Str.
    I'm assuming +5 Holy (Metal Weapon) of Greater Evil Outsider Bane, and I will be calculating the damage against a 40% fort mob. I am deliberately ignoring that offhands have a smaller str bonus.

    flat damage bonuses, which are factored with crits.
    15 Str
    1 Litany
    2 Shintao set
    5 power attack
    5 weapon enhancement
    7 bard song
    3.5 rapier/4.5 khopesh
    ---
    38.5 rapier/39.5 khopesh (offhand 31.5 rap/31.5 khop)

    extra damage:
    7 holy
    7 ravager
    ---
    14

    sneak attack damage:
    35 rogue levels
    14 capstone
    10.5 assassin
    12 enhancements
    8 guile (this is a stretch, I prefer to spend the last APs on something else)
    8 item
    11 active + passive PL
    21 shadowdancer
    21 ISA
    ---
    140.5 sa damage

    Khopesh damage per main hand over 20 swings:
    19*(39.5) + 19*(14) + 0.4*19*104.5 + 0.4*4*2*39.5 = 750.5 + 266 + 794.2 + 126.4 = 1937.1
    Including 3% doublestrike from opportunist: 1995.2

    Khopesh offhand damage over 20 swings:
    0.8*(19*(31.5) + 19*(14) + 0.4*19*104.5 + 0.4*4*2*31.5 = 598.5 + 266 + 794.2 + 100.8) = 1407.6

    Total Khopesh damage: 3402.8

    Rapier damage main hand over 20 swings:
    19*(38.5) + 19*(14) + 0.4*19*104.5 + 0.4*6*1*38.5 = 731.5 + 266 + 794.2 + 92.4 = 1884.1
    Including 6% offhand chance (oppurtunist + destiny): 1997.146
    Rapier damage off hand over 20 swings:
    0.8*(19*(30.5) + 19*(14) + 0.4*19*104.5 + 0.4*6*1*30.5 = 579.5 + 266 + 794.2 + 73.2) = 1370.32

    Total Rapier damage: 3254.4

    Relative Advantage of Khopesh over Rapier = 3402.8/3254.4 = 4.6 %

    I agree it's closed, but I don't see how the rapiers can outperform khopeshes, even under ideal conditions (ie never aggro).
    If you feel like adding some other damage enhancers, please feel free to do so and present your own calculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    a rapier versus khopesh comparison not counting burst effects and considering seeker value of 10 equates to an advantage of khopesh being 1.7+.1x where x is wour additional dmg mod. Solving for x yeilds 43 so it takes an additional dmg mod of 43 to bypass the rapier with the 3% if you don't factor in the value of a replacement feat. Even power critical feat would up that x value to 55. At these high of x values you are most likely over our estimate of 200 dmg per swing too so that amount increases.
    I don't understand this, can you please type out how you arrive at your 1.7 + .1x advantage for khopesh?
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 06-19-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    I don't understand this, can you please type out how you arrive at your 1.7 + .1x advantage for khopesh?
    If you hit on a 2 or better (not guaranteed anymore but for simplicity) a rapier will do 65% of it's swings at 1x dmg and 30% at 2x (assuming imp crit and no other threat/range modifiers).

    A similar khopesh will do 75% of it's swings at 1x and 20% at 3x.

    Therefore a rapier will do the following:

    .65(3.5+x)+.3(2(3.5+x+10)) where x is your additional dmg modifer this simplifies to

    10.375+1.25x

    For the khopesh:

    .75(4.5+x)+.2(3(4.5+x+10)) which simplifies to

    12.075+1.35x

    Subtract the rapier from the khopesh and you get 1.7+.1x.

    Probably fair to also consider lev 21 or higher weapons which get +1(w) at this point the difference between rapier and khopesh is 3.4+.1x.


    In your specific example x was 35 and you had addtnl dmg flags of 140.5 sneak attack 7 holy and 7 ravager (I also still assume 10 seeker)

    Main hand Rapier= .65(3.5+35)+.3(2(3.5+35+10))+.95(140.5+7+7)=200.9

    Off hand rapier= .65(3.5+27)+.3(2(3.5+27+10))+.95(140.5+7+7)=190.9

    So you average dmg per swing would be 1.06*200.9+.8*190.9=365.674

    Main hand khopesh=.75(4.5+35)+.2(3(4.5+35+10))+.95(140.5+7+7 )=206.1

    Off hand khopesh = .75(4.5+27)+.2(3(4.5+27+10))+.95(140.5+7+7)=195.3

    Avg khopesh dmg per swing = 1.03*206.1+.8*195.3=368.523

    So a difference of 368.523-365.674=2.849 dmg per swing in your situation.

    Power critical counts for .3*(1.06*4)+.3*(.8*4)=2.232 dmg per swing so the difference would be .627 dmg per swing.

    Power critical is a poor choice but easy to quantify and a worst case scenario.

    In this instance rapier will push ahead when you consider additional flags like assassin vorpal, manslayer, or shocking blow or lightning strike type flags which all are amplified by the 3% doublestrike.
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  17. #137
    Community Member Skavenaps's Avatar
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    weird question.. im pretty sure i already know the answer.. but lets give a shoot

    Do the evasion granted from shadowdancer works on heaviers armors than light?

    I know monk and rogue ones does need light or non armor.. but on the pnp game, ring of evasion worked on any armor. Will be nice for my arti planning to go shadowdancer keep hes medium armor and use evasion.

  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavenaps View Post
    weird question.. im pretty sure i already know the answer.. but lets give a shoot

    Do the evasion granted from shadowdancer works on heaviers armors than light?

    I know monk and rogue ones does need light or non armor.. but on the pnp game, ring of evasion worked on any armor. Will be nice for my arti planning to go shadowdancer keep hes medium armor and use evasion.
    You have to be in light armor.
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  19. #139
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    So a difference of 368.523-365.674=2.849 dmg per swing in your situation.
    ...

    In this instance rapier will push ahead when you consider additional flags like assassin vorpal, manslayer, or shocking blow or lightning strike type flags which all are amplified by the 3% doublestrike.
    Thanks for explaining this. So you come to the same conclusion as I: Currently, a rapier does less damage than a Khophesh. While more additional damage modifiers help the rapier more, it's still interesting to see how much they help. Consider Lighting Strike, Manslayer, and the Assassin III's Vorpal effect, which account for 9.15 + 5 + 5 = 19.15 damage per swing. With two Khopeshes, this becomes 35.04 damage with main, offhand and doublestrike. With two rapiers, this becomes 35.62 damage altogether, thus giving the rapier 0.58 extra damage, making this weapon choice still lag 2.3 points behind the khopesh.

    I'd really like to see a calculation as above where you can show that 4% double strike would grant more damage for the rapier, even under ideal situations. And then the question would be: Is that a bad thing that an ED/Class combination can outperform under ideal situations the usual TWF weapon choice, the khopesh. destiny4405 says that rapiers should always lag behind khopeshes, I think an alternative to the usual would be interesting.
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 06-20-2012 at 02:53 AM.
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  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Thanks for explaining this. So you come to the same conclusion as I: Currently, a rapier does less damage than a Khophesh. While more additional damage modifiers help the rapier more, it's still interesting to see how much they help. Consider Lighting Strike, Manslayer, and the Assassin III's Vorpal effect, which account for 9.15 + 5 + 5 = 19.15 damage per swing. With two Khopeshes, this becomes 35.04 damage with main, offhand and doublestrike. With two rapiers, this becomes 35.62 damage altogether, thus giving the rapier 0.58 extra damage, making this weapon choice still lag 2.3 points behind the khopesh.

    I'd really like to see a calculation as above where you can show that 4% double strike would grant more damage for the rapier, even under ideal situations. And then the question would be: Is that a bad thing that an ED/Class combination can outperform under ideal situations the usual TWF weapon choice, the khopesh. destiny4405 says that rapiers should always lag behind khopeshes, I think an alternative to the usual would be interesting.
    You cut out a very important part of my post in that in replacement for khopesh you could take power critical (theres better feats too usually this is just an example) and only lag behind the khopesh by .627 dmg per swing.

    The three effects lit strike, assassin vorpal and manslayer at 19.15 yield .575 dmg per swing more on rapier versus khopesh. so at this point we are basically .05 points of dmg per swing virtually equal for human detection you would never notice the difference.

    If we took the same situation we did earlier with 4% then we get

    rapier:
    1.07*200.9+.8*190.9=367.683

    khopesh:
    1.03*206.1+.8*195.3=368.523

    Factor in the power crit difference again of 2.232 and the rapier is now ahead by over 2 dmg per swing. So 4% would make power critical a better feat to take than exotic proficiency khopesh. That would be a sad day.

    3% provides almost exact equality when you count the replacement feat. That is pretty much the definition of balanced.
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