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  1. #1
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Default Feedback: Shadowdancer

    Use this thread to provide specific feedback about this Epic Destiny! General Epic Destiny feedback should be keep to the main Epic Destiny thread.

  2. #2

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    This destiny is really only useful for normal or casual content now.
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    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    This destiny is really only useful for normal or casual content now.
    I'm not sure that's "Specific" feedback ;P

    But, yeah, I hope the devs don't forget to address the last topics we were discussing before the switch from the beta forums.
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    I'm not sure that's "Specific" feedback ;P

    But, yeah, I hope the devs don't forget to address the last topics we were discussing before the switch from the beta forums.
    Sure its specific. 3 (4 fit the assassinate dc gets added) of the better abilities of this destiny get huge nerfs if you step inside a difficulty higher than normal. This is specific in regards to how the hard to kill "buff" applies to this destiny.

    If this buff is to make it live then I highly suggest a change to executioners strike, shadow manipulation, and consume so that three of the top tier abilities in the destiny are not reliant upon instakills.

    Nobody really wants to play something that is only good on normal do they?
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  5. #5
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Sure its specific. 3 (4 fit the assassinate dc gets added) of the better abilities of this destiny get huge nerfs if you step inside a difficulty higher than normal. This is specific in regards to how the hard to kill "buff" applies to this destiny.

    If this buff is to make it live then I highly suggest a change to executioners strike, shadow manipulation, and consume so that three of the top tier abilities in the destiny are not reliant upon instakills.

    Nobody really wants to play something that is only good on normal do they?
    I was under the impression that assasinate bypassed deathward (I could be wrong), and that these instakills would do the same.
    If not, that should really be implemented, epic abilities should work in all epic content.

  6. #6
    Community Member Syrophir's Avatar
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    Promised assassinate DC from Stealthy seems to be missing.

    I have nothing against those insta kills, on higher tiers their formula seems to be good enough to pass save checks even for old epics if you just bother invest int. And death wards never let assassinates happen, so it's working as intented for all ablities. Mobs toss themselves death ward after aggro. So if can sneak to them before that you can kill the caster before DW happens.

    If they did add some insta permanent DW for epics again then this might be a problem. :\ Though at least sneak dmg is still there.
    Last edited by Syrophir; 06-07-2012 at 06:21 AM.
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  7. #7
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    If Hard to Kill doesn't go away or a Rogue gets an Autogrants that bypass DW, this destiny is pretty much, let me say loud and clear, U S E L E S S.

    Why would you take this destiny again? 6 SA dices? Seriously? Evasion (on a rogue)? 30 SECONDS of full mobility while sneaking? Why would you sneak if you CAN'T ASSASSINATE? For epic claw of vulkoor's optionals ? +6 DC on your USELESS assassinate?

    Give an Autogrant that bypass deathward (or even a T5 ability, so it can be twistable for a huge cost) and then we can start considering this destiny. Rogues can assassinate max 2 mobs with assassinate, it won't be broken, it won't be OP.

    Totally should revamp this destiny, adding my suggestion or a similar one.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Rogues can assassinate max 2 mobs with assassinate, it won't be broken, it won't be OP.
    Wasn't special attacks proccing twice for twf classified as a bug and fixed some time ago? Other then that, /signed, assassinating an almost dead mob that also is beating on somebody else kinda defeats the purpose of the ability.

  9. #9
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Default Suggestions, wishes and concerns

    Not in any particular order...

    I dislike that Dark Shrouding doesn't work with Assassinate. Dark Shrouding is an attack, that has to hit, and puts a marker on your target, granting you a charge if the thing dies within 6 seconds. Assassinate basically requires you to be sneaking and without aggro (even enemies swinging and hitting you incidentally breaks stealth), in order to work. This means that you cannot use Assassinate to trigger Dark Shrouding unless you are incredibly quick with DS, Bluff, stealth, Assassinate. Would prefer Dark Shrouding to grant a short duration buff that reads: On your next attack, gain <Dark Shrouding text>.

    The unholy damage this ED gets in a couple of places...is that types as actual Unholy damage (only harms good aligned creatures), or is it a placeholder for a different effect name? If the former, it needs to go, or get rewritten, as at least 90% of the enemies we fight in the game are evil aligned, and this would do nothing for Shadowdancers in those situations.

    I'd still like to see a more significant bonus to sneaking abilities than a 30-seconds on, 5 minutes off clicky. Faster sneaking speed and maneuverability needs to last for a lengthy period of time in order for it to truly be useful (5 min minimum I think).

    Does Escape Notice work if there is nothing for Diplomacized enemies to aggro onto? If not, I'd like to see that get changed (if possible) to an ability that actually sheds aggro and allows you to return to sneaking around without a bunch of enemies who can't see or hear you bee-lining and swinging for your position.

    I like that an enhancement line was added to boost Assassinate, but the EDs aren't really tied to specific classes, so that should get expanded to also cover dark monk DCs, at the very least. Not sure who else would fit into this ED thematically, but if anyone else could, they should get similarly represented.

    The auto-granted Evasion should probably come with a Reflex save bonus if you already have Evasion, or should be twistable (albeit at a high level). It seems kind of ridiculous to me that players are already talking about swapping EDs for a quest or raid coming up where Evasion would be very useful, and then dumping it for those quests where it isn't as big a deal. On top if that, it gives the rogues, monks and rangers likely to get into this destiny something at that tier instead of a redundant ability.

    Maybe provide an innate Vampirism effect on sneak attacks as a stance? Reduces sneak attack damage by a little bit (thinking -1d6 per rank), while healing you for 1d6 per rank. At 3 ranks, that would be -3d6 SA, 3d6 healing per hit. Maybe too strong, but I don't think it would be unreasonable.


    My layout idea:

    I like the idea of bonuses being granted for being in sneak mode/invisible. Extra to-hit, or special abilities tied to these things. Right now, the only benefits of being in stealth mode are to avoid enemies and use Assassinate. Invisibility is similar.

    Hmm...


    Vanish - Activated ability turns you Invisible (as normal), and triggers special Diplomacy effect that uses Hide and completely removes you from aggro list (if no other targets around, enemies go back to passive, un-alerted AI scripts). Invisibility functions like spell, and lasts for 5 minutes if not deactivated otherwise. Cooldown 4 minutes.

    Abilities (not bothering to separate into tiers)
    Shadow Jump (3 ranks)- Spend shadow charge, Abundant Step ability that passes through enemies, grants Greater Invisibility for 10/20/30 seconds, and triggers Diplomacy effect that uses Hide skill instead. Cooldown 1 min.

    Assassin's Training (3 ranks) - grants +2/4/6 to the DCs of Assassinate, Assassin's poisons, Quivering Palm, Touch of Death, Dark Finishers, and Smite Construct.

    Dark Conveyance (2 ranks) - Gain use of Dimension Door at will (rank 1). Gain use of Shadow Walk at will (rank 2).

    Stalking Prowess (3 ranks) - Enemies you strike while sneaking/invisible are affected with Hamstring/Exhaustion/Limb-Chopper. You gain a +2/4/6 bonus on to-hit and damage rolls while sneaking/invisible. Gain 1 shadow charge if you kill an enemy while sneaking/invisible.

    Opportunistic Stalker
    (3 ranks, requires Stalking Prowess I) - Enemies you strike while sneaking/invisible take a -1/2/3 penalty to saves and attack rolls, -2%/4%/6% penalty to AC and Fortification.

    Expert Stalker (3 ranks, requires Opportunistic Stalker I) - When sneaking/invisible, your attacks have a 30%/60%/90% chance to not break stealth/Invisibility, and produce 10%/15%/20% less aggro. (maybe tie no-break chance to number of shadow charges you are holding)

    Dark Channeling (3 ranks) - Stance: You deal 2d6/4d6/6d6 less SA damage while in this stance, but heal 1d6/2d6/3d6 HP per swing (unaffected by healing amp or WF healing penalties).

    Acrobatic - As currently described, except adds: "You may tumble and jump without breaking stealth."

    Snipe from the Shadows: (3 ranks) - Your ranged attacks no longer automatically break stealth/invisibility. Instead, each time you successfully hit a creature with a ranged attack, you gain a 10% chance to break stealth/invisibility. Every 10 seconds during which you don't make an attack, this chance drops by 10% until you are back to 0% chance to break stealth/invisibility.
    Rank 2: Duration to reduce a stack dropped to 6 seconds. Additionally, the range at which you may land sneak attacks is increased to 45 feet.
    Rank 3: Duration to reduce a stack dropped to 3 seconds. Additionally, the range at which you may land sneak attacks is increased to 60 feet.
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 06-07-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Auto-grants
    Shadow Training I - SA +1d6, Faster sneaking +15%
    Shadow Training II - SA +1d6, +1 SA to-hit
    Shadow Training III - SA +1d6, Faster sneaking +15%
    Shadow Training IV - SA +1d6, +1 SA to-hit
    Shadow Training V - SA +1d6, Faster sneaking +15%
    Shadow Training VI - SA +1d6, Vanish (active)
    Why would you sneak if you can't assassinate mobs?


    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Assassin's Training (3 ranks) - grants +2/4/6 to the DCs of Assassinate, Assassin's poisons, Quivering Palm, Touch of Death, Dark Finishers, and Smite Construct.
    Same as before. No point if you can't assassinate with that Hard to kill ward.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Stalking Prowess (3 ranks) - Enemies you strike while sneaking/invisible are affected with Hamstring/Exhaustion/Limb-Chopper. You gain a +2/4/6 bonus on to-hit and damage rolls while sneaking/invisible. Gain 1 shadow charge if you kill an enemy while sneaking/invisible.
    I like it and already suggested in the previous post. I'd do it differently thou.
    Forget while you sneaking/invisible part. 10% to trigger Hamstring/Exhaustion/Limb-Chopper

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Opportunistic Stalker (3 ranks, requires Stalking Prowess I) - Enemies you strike while sneaking/invisible take a -1/2/3 penalty to saves and attack rolls, -2%/4%/6% penalty to AC and Fortification.
    Seems too low IMHO. 5%/10%/15% would be awesome. Or even 3%/6%/10%.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Dark Channeling (3 ranks) - Stance: You deal 2d6/4d6/6d6 less SA damage while in this stance, but heal 1d6/2d6/3d6 HP per swing (unaffected by healing amp or WF healing penalties).
    Too much a loss of SA for little benefit imho. Assuming you are using this on a raid boss, you are dropping way too much SA and gaining nothing when basically there is a healer spamming mass heal on you. 3d6 SA loss and 3d6 heal gain would make it worthwile for normal questing thou.


    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Acrobatic - As currently described, except adds: "You may tumble and jump without breaking stealth."
    Lovely.

    The main concern remains thou: if Hard to Kill doesn't go away or give the rogue an ability to bypass it, this destiny isn't worth it.

  11. #11
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    the epic moment needs to get buffed up. 2d6 extra damage is ridiculous comparing to others.
    Last edited by destiny4405; 06-08-2012 at 07:43 PM.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  12. #12
    Community Member brzytki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by destiny4405 View Post
    or to everything except handwraps, which are also finesseable? come on, even druid's animal form unarmed gets it.

    the epic moment needs to get buffed up. 2d6 extra damage is ridiculous comparing to others.
    About the epic moment, what does that bit about 'increasing your weapons' range' mean? Can't test it myself since i have no access to the game atm but i'd like to know cause in closed beta forums there wasn't anything said that would explain it.
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  13. #13
    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brzytki View Post
    About the epic moment, what does that bit about 'increasing your weapons' range' mean? Can't test it myself since i have no access to the game atm but i'd like to know cause in closed beta forums there wasn't anything said that would explain it.
    not sure. tested it in Beta 2 or 3 with handwraps and quartestaves and didn't see any benefits. i remember damage wasn't applying as well.

    there's no visual effect that much i know for sure.
    Jesus saves. Everyone else rounds to nearest 5%.

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  14. #14
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Do I understand the tier 3 autogrant "Toggle: generate 20% less melee and ranged threat" correctly, that my rogue will now have 2 toggles which she will switch on upon every log-on? Or is there any kind of synergy with Subtle Backstabbing involved?
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  15. #15
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Why would you sneak if you can't assassinate mobs?
    For one, because players do enjoy using stealthy play, and for another, because a few abilities in the destiny give you invisibility that doesn't break with attacks (for a short while), and because it is thematically appropriate for the destiny.

    Oh, and because I made these suggestions in the closed beta thread, before this ridiculous hard to kill mechanic was introduced, and I sincerely hope the devs scrap it.

    I like it and already suggested in the previous post. I'd do it differently thou.
    Forget while you sneaking/invisible part. 10% to trigger Hamstring/Exhaustion/Limb-Chopper
    See above. I'm fine with the destiny gaining effects that have nothing to do with sneaking or shadows, but I'd like to see more of it support (or benefit from) such a playstyle, or work synergistically with some of the other abilities the ED grants.

    Seems too low IMHO. 5%/10%/15% would be awesome. Or even 3%/6%/10%.
    Remember that we have a lot of other effects that this stacks with, and that percentages scale up rather significantly.

    Too much a loss of SA for little benefit imho. Assuming you are using this on a raid boss, you are dropping way too much SA and gaining nothing when basically there is a healer spamming mass heal on you. 3d6 SA loss and 3d6 heal gain would make it worthwile for normal questing thou.
    This was intended to be more of a party ability than a raid one, and especially useful when soloing (either the whole quest, or simply moving apart from the group). Not every ability needs to be raid boss fight worthy. And since I suggested it to be a stance, it would be the player's choice when to use it.



    The main concern remains thou: if Hard to Kill doesn't go away or give the rogue an ability to bypass it, this destiny isn't worth it.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Do I understand the tier 3 autogrant "Toggle: generate 20% less melee and ranged threat" correctly, that my rogue will now have 2 toggles which she will switch on upon every log-on? Or is there any kind of synergy with Subtle Backstabbing involved?
    This was in response to several players requesting the ability, but not wanting it to be automatic, since there are times when you want aggro, or at least when someone in this destiny may want aggro.

    Is it a little irritating to have to toggle two abilities on logging in? Sure, but in the grand scheme of things, that a pretty minor annoyance. Put them next to each other on a hotbar, click one then the other, and forget about both until you log out and back in again or DC.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Put them next to each other on a hotbar, click one then the other, and forget about both until you log out and back in again or DC.
    I gotta lotta hotbars already ... "exactly how many toggle flips in toto are involved in this procedure?"

    Also, I thought Genasi's last pass of the passives was pretty close to perfect (at the time). Dunno that we need to redesign the whole thing again.

  17. #17
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    I gotta lotta hotbars already ... "exactly how many toggle flips in toto are involved in this procedure?"

    Also, I thought Genasi's last pass of the passives was pretty close to perfect (at the time). Dunno that we need to redesign the whole thing again.
    I don't think this is a big change from the last pass--instead of it just granting 20% threat reduction, it grants a toggle for 20% threat reduction.

    Unless you're using all 20 bars, it shouldn't be too big a deal. I put stuff like this on a hidden bar. Log in, click the arrow to cycle down one bar on the main hotbar, click stuff like this that are 'fire and forget' and then click the arrow back up the bar with the stuff I care about for the rest of the time I'm online.
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I don't think this is a big change from the last pass--
    Dude, at a glance, you took all the really cool stuff out of Genasi's last pass on innates and moved it into the twistable portion. Pretty big conceptual change, if you ask me.

    Wish I'd kept a copy of that.
    Edit: Ah, there we go!

    Quote Originally Posted by genasi View Post
    Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

    Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.
    Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).
    Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.
    Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.
    Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.
    Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

    I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

    In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    instead of it just granting 20% threat reduction, it grants a toggle for 20% threat reduction.
    This doesn't stop "combines with existing toggle" from being even cooler.

    Heck, let me click it from the character sheet and let it stay on all the time through logins. That SB IV does, and SBs I-III don't has to be a bug.

    Seriously, there's going to be a lot more clickies, stances, and whatnot going on when this is all said and done ... arguing that it's "one toggle" is one thing. There's a lot of "one moar toggle/clickie/whatever" going on with EDs all together. Why not consolidate when it makes sense to?
    Last edited by SableShadow; 06-07-2012 at 01:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    For one, because players do enjoy using stealthy play, and for another, because a few abilities in the destiny give you invisibility that doesn't break with attacks (for a short while), and because it is thematically appropriate for the destiny.
    Let's face it: people that enjoy using stealthy play are FAR FAR less than the ones that stealth just to assassinate.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Remember that we have a lot of other effects that this stacks with, and that percentages scale up rather significantly.
    Indeed. But 10% is still a T3 ability and not many people will get the third rank of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    This was intended to be more of a party ability than a raid one, and especially useful when soloing (either the whole quest, or simply moving apart from the group). Not every ability needs to be raid boss fight worthy. And since I suggested it to be a stance, it would be the player's choice when to use it.
    Well, a stance might see its uses. However, 6d6 is still huge. To make up for that, id heal for 1d10/2d10/3d10.

  20. #20
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    I missed why dexterity added to damage was cut from the shadowdancer... thought it was a good idea (perhaps better if you eliminate the "add dex rather than strength to attack". This way dancers are still left with finnesse weapons and the occasional special weapon that allows dex to attack. I liked that feature, any chance of it coming back?

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