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  1. #141
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post
    Can you at least wait until artificers get an actual ED before you rebalance the shiradi to better benefit longbows/shortbows?

    I don't like having to use a ranger ED anymore than you like artificers usurping it.
    No. Please note there's been zero mention of making this any worse for artificers, or that it's not even intended for artificers. Ranged Artificers were kept in mind when making this destiny and fully expected to consider it a viable option. You can't usurp a throne created for you! Though I'm sorry you don't like using this Destiny.

  2. #142
    Community Member Aliss7's Avatar
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    I have to chime in and say, personally, I'm not exactly fond of randomness of effects, not to mention the chance for negative effects either.

    It made me a little sad, that this ED focused on that aspect. I mean, I'm glad it exists, but I would have personally put this type of mechanic in the mage/sorcerer ED (wild mage comes to mind). I guess I can't also help from thinking about that dufus wizard from the old dnd cartoon who can't pull anything useful out of his hat.

    Anyway, who am I kidding, I'll be taking this ED regardless... any boost in my ranged abilities is still better than nothing... I guess.

  3. #143
    Community Member Malky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    FYI! This buff isn't supposed to show up every time you critically succeed in addition to the other buffs. (It's a bug that it does.)
    /sadpanda
    I hoped it was intended since it gave something not tied to randomness. Getting 75% elemental absorb doesn't help much when you're surrounded by trolls, if on top of getting a defensive buff that may not help you, the offensive one only kicks in once in a while, the usefulness dramatically falls.
    The defensive buff being random is ok if the offensive one is not.

    It's something we can use once per rest, and we loose 7s of dps/movement when using it. Without at least a part of the benefits being trustable, honestly it's not worth the APs.

    Wouldn't it be better to have a somewhat lowered effect but that kicks in each time if you roll a critical success ? I like the randomness part of that destiny, but too much randomness kills the fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We completely removed the saves for these abilities.
    On a permanent basis or just until tech catches up and allows a DC that can be improved by build/gear ?
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
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  4. #144
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The idea is sound, but it's pretty much exactly this issue that's the problem. Right now, the exact same ability is better for repeaters than crossbows. Not to say it's a simple issue, but the problem described here as preferable to avoid is exactly the problem right now! It just happens to be slightly implicit instead of explicitly saying, "This ability triggers more often with repeating crossbows!", but it's still true regardless.
    Well, as far as basics go, it seems easy enough to add thematic changes [or feats for such]-

    Great Crossbows: Add an additional +1 crit modifier while within point blank range.
    Short Bows: Faster reload/draw speed.
    Long Bows: Less penalties for distance, longer point blank range.

    -though making them inherently balanced, especially taking into account exotic weapon feat requirements, is going to be awkward regardless.

    So yes, there will always be things that favor [repeaters], but adding a few thematic elements as I described seems the best course.
    My only point was to distinguish between non-comparative raw damage increases between the different weapons vs differing thematic stylings. IE, moving away from the 'just double damage on all abilities for non-repeaters' element that had been initially mentioned.

    Given the need to have style versatility among the destinies, if balancing takes place there, it'd have to be in the form of a small number of specific weapon-related stances or elements, as I gave example to.

    The enchantment pass seems a good place to start from, especially if the ability to utilize multiple ranger trees allows a better combat synergy than the comparative trees in the less strictly combat oriented repeater trees [IE, Battle Engineer, Rogue Mechanic]. If those trees and their counterparts continue to work more off utility and differing styles, while Deepwood and Arcane Archer allow for bow-based synergy, that'd at least offer one class/hybridization to make a comparative offering.

    These are all pretty obvious things, from a design standpoint, but I just wanted to make a point of emphasizing the discussion away from suggestions for more basic approaches.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  5. #145
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliss7 View Post
    I have to chime in and say, personally, I'm not exactly fond of randomness of effects, not to mention the chance for negative effects either.

    It made me a little sad, that this ED focused on that aspect. I mean, I'm glad it exists, but I would have personally put this type of mechanic in the mage/sorcerer ED (wild mage comes to mind). I guess I can't also help from thinking about that dufus wizard from the old dnd cartoon who can't pull anything useful out of his hat.

    Anyway, who am I kidding, I'll be taking this ED regardless... any boost in my ranged abilities is still better than nothing... I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malky View Post
    /sadpanda
    I hoped it was intended since it gave something not tied to randomness. Getting 75% elemental absorb doesn't help much when you're surrounded by trolls, if on top of getting a defensive buff that may not help you, the offensive one only kicks in once in a while, the usefulness dramatically falls.
    The defensive buff being random is ok if the offensive one is not.

    It's something we can use once per rest, and we loose 7s of dps/movement when using it. Without at least a part of the benefits being trustable, honestly it's not worth the APs.

    Wouldn't it be better to have a somewhat lowered effect but that kicks in each time if you roll a critical success ? I like the randomness part of that destiny, but too much randomness kills the fun.



    On a permanent basis or just until tech catches up and allows a DC that can be improved by build/gear ?
    I love randomness. I want more crazy abilities. I hope Wild Mage embraces the theme, once it's released.
    But yes: Everything has to have a single core consistency to work from, or there's no point of comparison or reliability to work from, thus hindering inclination to use the ability or recognition of benefits thereof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraphim View Post
    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  6. #146
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    I do like double rainbow. I have found that if you add up all the bonuses from prism stance to double rainbow, it is pretty good. Plus watching the aoe procs happen is pretty cool. It is not predictable, but you can get to the point where you can kind of predict about when it should happen.

    I did not like audience with the queen. I found it to be a superior potion of wonder. I prefer the rain of arrows personally and hopefully the damage will be worked out soon.

    My advice for those wanting to use this ED as their active ED, find out what you like and use it, don't use the rest. Not every ability will or should be equally appealing to everyone. What I choose to do with my pure ranger is different than what someone else's artificer or moncher. My playstyle is probably differen than another pure ranger. It is what makes things less cookie cutter and better in general. More flavorful.

    I do agree to a point that it is too heavy on % chances and random actions. Like previously suggested, maybe one line of the tree should be random and the rest more static.
    Last edited by barecm; 06-15-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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  7. #147
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    You can't use the DDoor. When you come back as a kobold from Audience with the Queen, it only lasts until you attack. If these are actually the things most worrying you, you should stop worrying. You said you played the class, but these particular worries are clearly based on theory, not play.

    Go play your raid!

    (Or, just use Stay Good instead of Double Rainbow, if it's really bothering you.)
    Actually my worries are based on reading, as none of the negative effects happened to me during my testing, (though the proc rates for other things where rather low), I figured my rolls where all good or whatever; however, if the negative effects are just fluff then whatever, all I can say is that should have been stated up front as a quick read of this thread and the ones from the closed beta clearly show I was not the only one under this impression and was worried about it.

    But thank you for clearing it up.

    Now, fix the disparity between repeaters and other bow types.
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  8. #148
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    If you are actually gonna balance bows to repeaters, pleeeease dont forget throwing weapons this is their destiny too!

    On the random thing, you know 7% slightly less random than a vorpal right? We plan on crits all the time, even less of an isuee the rate manyshot, and fusilade spam triggers. Throwing weapon still are sad though.

  9. #149
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gidgidonihah View Post
    If you are actually gonna balance bows to repeaters, pleeeease dont forget throwing weapons this is their destiny too!

    On the random thing, you know 7% slightly less random than a vorpal right? We plan on crits all the time, even less of an isuee the rate manyshot, and fusilade spam triggers. Throwing weapon still are sad though.
    Yes, 7% was partially chosen as a fey number but also as 'a bit more often than vorpals' which are under 5%.


    It's just you and me here, right? Don't tell everyone else, but...

    I'm on a tiny private crusade to make throwing weapons relevant. And boost the rest of ranged, but throwing is the red-headed stepchild of ranged fighting. This may take some time. (It may even been said that Whirling Wrists is too strong. I await the day when shuriken nerfs are demanded. Bwahahahaha!)

    In the meanwhile, all Shiradi Champion abilities trigger off of throwing weapons as much as bows or crossbows! Which maybe isn't right, but it's more than 0%!

  10. #150
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    While we're semi on the topic of "ranged combat" in general, as per the patch notes, PBS looks to add "+5% to hit".
    There's been some speculation on whether the +1 damage (aka double damage) from PBS has been removed - can anyone on Llama confirm whether it's still there or has been axed?

  11. #151
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    I'm on a tiny private crusade to make throwing weapons relevant.
    You have just tied with Breca as my favorite dev with this. I fully support your crusade

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    No. Please note there's been zero mention of making this any worse for artificers, or that it's not even intended for artificers. Ranged Artificers were kept in mind when making this destiny and fully expected to consider it a viable option. You can't usurp a throne created for you! Though I'm sorry you don't like using this Destiny.
    It is not that the destiny is completely terrible, it just has thematic differences that bug me and a lot of abilities that feel skippable.

    -Throwing a fan of knives? Feh.
    -Fey stuff for a WF artificer? Feh.
    -Nothing for my mechanical mutt Zoidberg? Feh. (Hey, my artificer is named Crabhand, it fits!)
    -Weak healing aura? Feh. I heal up just fine.
    -No bonus to artificer casting level? Feh.
    -No runearm bonuses? Feh.
    -Hide/dodge bonuses? Feh.
    -Elemental absorption? Feh.
    -Audience with the Queen? Feh. Again, I don't need a big heal, don't want to get locked out of doing anything for several seconds, or have to start equipping diplomacy items for just one ability. I don't use diplomacy on my arti because I can survive enemies usually much better than others.
    -Rain of Arrows? Has potential, but how big is the area? I like to be far away from enemies and rain death upon them, I don't need a player-based AoE that forces me to get in close. When enemies get in PBS range it means I need to get my feet moving (unmoving raid bosses excluded). The damage itself isn't great especially when you compare to effects of other destinies (look at the dragon breath or the melee ED's).
    -The Prism line sounds ok I guess, but with everything being a proc chance, reliability is out the window. Artificers are all about setting up the tone of the fight, on their terms. Think of endless fusilade. Crazy long spool up time, but if you initiate combat with it thus negating that time, it is crazy good.
    -Where are the abilities that scale with our own attacks, such as improved critical range/multiplier or a % bonus to our damage/attack speed? Yes, thrown weapon have attack speed. Whoopee.

    I really wish the Grand Summoner tier 5 bonus to pets/summons etc. [the copy of Augment Summoning] from Magister was twistable because I would twist it right off of there so fast with my artificer, I like buffing Zoidberg, the little idiot that he may be. I liked getting his AC as high as possible to make him an off-tank, I even made a thread about it to track all the dog AC bonuses. It just strikes me that in the quest to make lots of nice twistable abilities the one that druids/artificers might consider is placed too high just out of reach.

    I just want a destiny that forces me to choose between super sweet option A and super sweet option B. I just don't feel that way with my artificer and Shiradi Champion.

    One thing I haven't read so I'm not sure on, do Shiradi Champion procs go off for runearm shots? If they do, then I retract the above comment about SC not helping my runearm. It still won't make me want a more appropriate ED for artificers (and druids for that matter, they need one to help with shape shifting that also gives shape shifting to others, think Bear Warrior. Raging bear!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin
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  13. #153
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post

    I just want a destiny that forces me to choose between super sweet option A and super sweet option B. I just don't feel that way with my artificer and Shiradi Champion.
    theres always the draconic line. up to +6 more evocation DC, + 30% more damage on your rune arm damage along with +5 more caster levels on your blasts. thats not to mention some of the other fun looking abilities

    the only catch is that you have to use an elemental rune arm like tovens or glorious for the full benefits, no force dragon line.


    personally I'll be starting in magister to unlock some +DCs to twist, then maxing draconic. after that I'll work my way over to Shiradi champion to try it out.

    for me it'll be a question of which is better, Shiradi as the active ED with twists for +5 DCs and +30% damage OR draconic with some + DC and a Shiradi ability or two



    I'm less upset about no arti ED and more upset about still being stuck with only one unfinished PrE. the enhancement pass cant happen soon enough
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  14. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    theres always the draconic line. up to +6 more evocation DC, + 30% more damage on your rune arm damage along with +5 more caster levels on your blasts. thats not to mention some of the other fun looking abilities

    the only catch is that you have to use an elemental rune arm like tovens or glorious for the full benefits, no force dragon line.


    personally I'll be starting in magister to unlock some +DCs to twist, then maxing draconic. after that I'll work my way over to Shiradi champion to try it out.

    for me it'll be a question of which is better, Shiradi as the active ED with twists for +5 DCs and +30% damage OR draconic with some + DC and a Shiradi ability or two



    I'm less upset about no arti ED and more upset about still being stuck with only one unfinished PrE. the enhancement pass cant happen soon enough
    Nevermind, responded too fast. I like the force rune arms, much more reliable to hit with. I don't ever end up using the elemental ones to charge up and shoot. I do like Toven's for the extra lightning strikes though when I run and gun.

    Upping my DC's? I see other artificers bring this up, but I always found it hard to get excited about that. Yes, I put 4 level ups in Int and started with a 16, but my DC's always felt much too low to be super useful. I'll occasionally throw out a tactical detonation/prismatic strike, but they never seem to land enough. I never felt I had enough room in my enhancements to take the bonus Int line, but that would still only be +1-2 DC. I'm used to my wizard with a 41 DC in Necromancy and that still feels like it doesn't land enough. I usually save my arti's spellpoints for buffing and self-healing and let my crossbow/runearm do the damage, with blade barriers thrown in for fun.

    Maybe I just play my arti different than a lot of others, but he seems pretty effective.
    Last edited by BananaHat; 06-15-2012 at 05:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin
    I've never seen someone at a tabletop game say "I jump up on the wall until I get stuck in a spot where I can hit the giant but he can't hit me back for no apparent reason."

  15. #155
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post
    Nevermind, responded too fast. I like the force rune arms, much more reliable to hit with. I don't ever end up using the elemental ones.
    same, but Glorious Ob actually uses the same homing missles as lucid
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    same, but Glorious Ob actually uses the same homing missles as lucid
    Yeah, but it doesn't have potency on it and my runearm is where I've been keeping mine.

    Also, I keep the force line of enhancements for the blade barrier boost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin
    I've never seen someone at a tabletop game say "I jump up on the wall until I get stuck in a spot where I can hit the giant but he can't hit me back for no apparent reason."

  17. #157
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post
    One thing I haven't read so I'm not sure on, do Shiradi Champion procs go off for runearm shots? If they do, then I retract the above comment about SC not helping my runearm. It still won't make me want a more appropriate ED for artificers (and druids for that matter, they need one to help with shape shifting that also gives shape shifting to others, think Bear Warrior. Raging bear!)
    It should work with runearms, and quite well with multiple projectiles some runearms have. The spell power from Fey Form and Fey Spring boosts runearms.

    That said, it is useful to know this is more from theoretical discussions and not playtesting. It seems like quite a few players just don't like percentage chances, which I respect, but these are better than vorpals, and due to rate of fire they are going to feel more consistent with a repeating crossbow, especially if you have 3+ different effects that can trigger with each shot at 7%, which is just about a 20% chance of something triggering on each hit.
    Last edited by Vargouille; 06-15-2012 at 06:06 PM.

  18. #158
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Yes, 7% was partially chosen as a fey number but also as 'a bit more often than vorpals' which are under 5%.


    It's just you and me here, right? Don't tell everyone else, but...

    I'm on a tiny private crusade to make throwing weapons relevant. And boost the rest of ranged, but throwing is the red-headed stepchild of ranged fighting. This may take some time. (It may even been said that Whirling Wrists is too strong. I await the day when shuriken nerfs are demanded. Bwahahahaha!)

    In the meanwhile, all Shiradi Champion abilities trigger off of throwing weapons as much as bows or crossbows! Which maybe isn't right, but it's more than 0%!
    /sarcasm
    Be careful with that, the fact that you can kill stuff at ranged and have a shield equipped at the same time is obviously too overpowered. Throwing weapons should likely not be more than 1/4 as good as melee because of this.
    /sarasm off

    Any chance you could add in to your crusade improving the utility of quivers? Id like to switch arrows in quivers via hot bar rather than having to have both inventory and quiver open to do it.
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  19. #159
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    currently you can get around a 44 DC on rune arm blasts with maxed out PL's not counting short term stuff like house D pots or abishi cookies or store pots. with the expansions new items and destinies its somewhere in the range of 55-60


    Its hard to imagine these little 7% procs from Shiradi making up the difference between full damage on rune arm blasts and half damage. if the twists are enough for a good DC that would be great. But you're looking at ~ a 10 DC difference between the two before you start twisting anything.
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  20. #160
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    whirling wrist might make it worth swaping to shuriken's for 10k stars as a arcane archers.

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