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  1. #121
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Stay Frosty and Stay Good are also available stances in the tree, for those that prefer consistency.
    I disagree with the idea that a chance something might proc is consistent. Consistent is something you can count on happening when it is supposed to. The attack chain bonuses are consistent(bab, bab, bab+5, bab+10). A proc chance is not consistent.

    I dont dislike the randomness in this ED, but dont kid yourself that a proc chance is "consistent."
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  2. #122
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Stay Frosty and Stay Good are also available stances in the tree, for those that prefer consistency.
    First you are comparing a tier 1 abilitiy with a tier 6 one?
    Stay Good (required 0 - No prereq) (2 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 5secs) Wild hunter stance: Ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have a 7% chance to deal 1d12 extra light damage

    Stay Frosty (required 0 - No prereq) (2 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 5secs) Wild hunter stance: Ranged and thrown attacks and offensive spells have an extra 7% chance to deal 1d12 extra cold damage and slow movement for 5 seconds. +3 listen and spot
    Unless this has changed, 7% is consistency in your view?

    Lets compare other ED tier 1s and see:
    Sigil of spell warding (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 30 secs) Inscribes a sigil for 60 seconds. Grants [10/20/??] stacking SR to all allies within its radius. Only one sigil active per caster

    Energy Sheath (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 1min) For 2 minutes gain 50% fire absorption. Energy that strike you take 1d3+10 fire damage and have a small chance to take 4d20+100 fire damage. Remove fire shield.

    Avenging light (required 0 - No prereq) (1 ranks - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 3secs) Deals 1d4+4 light damage + 1d4+4 per three character level to 1 target. Fortitude save (DC 10+ character level + charisma mod) for half

    Dirge (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: [21/16/11]secs) For every 2 character level you deal [1d4/1d6/1d8] negative damage and [1d8/1d10/1d12] Sonic damage every 2 seconds to all enemies in the vicinity. In addition, affected enemies must make a Fortitude save or be slowed 5%. Duration 18 seconds

    Tunnel Vision (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) While raged melee attacks deal +1d8 extra damage, you gain +1 intimidate, +1 will saves and you lose -10AC and -20% fort

    Lilly Petal (required 0 - No prereq) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs - 10 Ki) Project a bolt dealing 80-120 + 8-12 dmg per character level to a target

    Sundering swing (required 0 - No prereq - Feat prereq: Improved sunder) (3 rank - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 1min) For next 9 seconds all attack make improved sunder effect on hit

    Shadow lance (required 0 - No prereq) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 30secs) Throws 3 spears, each dealing 6d6 unholy damage and has a chance to blind target (Fort DC 14 + Half character level + Intelligence modifier) if you have dark shrouding charges

    Bane of undeath (required 0 - No prereq) (1 ranks - 2 AP): (Passive) You gain the turn undead feat. While enjoying vigor of battle, weapons you equip gain less undead bane (+1 to hit and +1d6 damage against undeads)
    Yeah compared to any of the other EDs SC's are not random at all, oh wait they are.
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  3. #123
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I might like the whole random theme in this destiny, but I agree that it is far behind all the other destinies due to only having a chance to proc stuff, where the others get solid bonuses, in many cases much higher ones than shiradi champions.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 06-14-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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  4. #124
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    oops double post
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  5. #125
    Community Member Ravoc-DDO's Avatar
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    Vargouille, can you double all offensive effects in this ED for shortbows & longbows, to offset the gap with repeaters?

  6. #126
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Vargouille, can you double all offensive effects in this ED for shortbows & longbows, to offset the gap with repeaters?
    We've seriously looked into some options for balancing this. It's a complex issue and task. Something along these lines may happen.

  7. #127
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Vargouille, can you double all offensive effects in this ED for shortbows & longbows, to offset the gap with repeaters?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've seriously looked into some options for balancing this. It's a complex issue and task. Something along these lines may happen.
    While I agree with the sentiment, that'd be the wrong way to go about it.

    Uniquely structured feats, enhancements, pres, destinies, and items to the effect are better than simply "x is superior for y rather than for z" options.

    So, for example:
    Shiradi Hunter Stance: "Black Moon Seeker": When utilizing short bows, you gain [+10%,+15%,+20%] attack speed for 30 seconds after coming out of stealth. All ranged attacks gain +[1d6,2d6,3d6] sneak attack damage.
    would be superior to
    Ranged combat bonus X: All ranged weapons gain +2d10 damage. Shortbows and Longbows gain an additional +2d10 damage.

    As long as that element is kept in mind, I'm all for balancing in shortbows, great crossbows, and throwing weapons more
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  8. #128
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravoc-DDO View Post
    Vargouille, can you double all offensive effects in this ED for shortbows & longbows, to offset the gap with repeaters?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've seriously looked into some options for balancing this. It's a complex issue and task. Something along these lines may happen.
    An alternative that I'm sure a lot will dislike: make manyshot have a passive chance to fire multiple arrows, somewhat akin to the proc chances on TWF -- depending on BAB, a 20%, 40%, 60% or 80% chance to fire two arrows (with say -2 to-hit on 2nd arrow) instead of one, and leave the active part of manyshot alone.

    This would boost heroic and epic level ranged combat -- and in a realm of super skilled archers that can already fire up to 4 at a time firing 2 is not all too ridiculous...
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    it will go on and on and on to level 999

  9. #129
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    I might like the whole random theme in this destiny, but I agree that it is far behind all the other destinies due to only having a chance to proc stuff, where the others get solid bonuses, in many cases much higher ones than shiradi champions.

    Very true. I found that the abilities were cool and I thought the damage was awesome and such. Then I logged onto my melee, got his ED and realized how lame SC is really. SC is simply a bunch of % chance and procs. Others are actual damage modifiers and abilities that do predictable, useful things. My original reaction to how I thought SC was cool was probably based off how lame ranged combat is coming into this update; so I was obviously initially impressed.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment, that'd be the wrong way to go about it.

    Uniquely structured feats, enhancements, pres, destinies, and items to the effect are better than simply "x is superior for y rather than for z" options.

    So, for example:
    Shiradi Hunter Stance: "Black Moon Seeker": When utilizing short bows, you gain [+10%,+15%,+20%] attack speed for 30 seconds after coming out of stealth. All ranged attacks gain +[1d6,2d6,3d6] sneak attack damage.
    would be superior to
    Ranged combat bonus X: All ranged weapons gain +2d10 damage. Shortbows and Longbows gain an additional +2d10 damage.

    As long as that element is kept in mind, I'm all for balancing in shortbows, great crossbows, and throwing weapons more
    The idea is sound, but it's pretty much exactly this issue that's the problem. Right now, the exact same ability is better for repeaters than crossbows. Not to say it's a simple issue, but the problem described here as preferable to avoid is exactly the problem right now! It just happens to be slightly implicit instead of explicitly saying, "This ability triggers more often with repeating crossbows!", but it's still true regardless.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    First you are comparing a tier 1 abilitiy with a tier 6 one?

    Unless this has changed, 7% is consistency in your view?

    Lets compare other ED tier 1s and see:

    Yeah compared to any of the other EDs SC's are not random at all, oh wait they are.
    So glad you are able to pick and choose which effects emphasize your point while completely ignoring other ED that have SOME effects that are random.

    The Shiradi ED focuses on proc based damage because it is the most straight-forward way to benefit both casters and physical damage simultaneously. While I could understand that in some ways they could make a more ranged-centric ED if they had also included a seperate ED for Druid this is not what happened. Changing this to a purely ranged ED would leave druids with nowhere to go in the ED tree at 20 at this time.

    You have a subset of abilities that are proc based. 3 at any given time to be exact. Rainbow, with it's subsequent enhancements, stay good and stay frosty are all stances that you can only have 1 of. The other 2 real random proc based effects are both in the inherent granted.

    What you seem to have glossed over in the tree that is NOT random based (probably because it is counter to your argument) are the active clicky abilities low in the tree: pin, whistler and the knife toss (forget name off the top of my head). Since you were so quick to quote other classes actives I find it suspect that you completely ignore these in your arguments.

    Having played the Shiradi tree extensively on Lamannia I will tell you this... it is FUN. While it can definately use some tweaks it currently enhances the style of Arcane Archers everywhere with big burst/spike damage from RNG. It provides some pretty darn amazing static hit increases/ac decreases between Fey Favor and Track as well as dodge ignore (so far the only case of it anywhere!!). Damage is covered by the random procs along with stacking stationary damage increases (something that coincides with a long-standing Turbine standpoint of archers can't hit super hard while being mobile).

    The BIGGEST problems currently with this tree really are in the first tier. Unfortunately due to the nature of stances stay frosty can feel like a waste of points if/when you are looking to use rainbow. The knife toss, while nice, is looking at some nerfs to the point where the damage doesn't justify the long cooldown. Healing spring is also another ability that I am not personally fond of because of the wide range of effect it can give and very limited uses that it has per shrine. That being said when you get into the meat of the tree and get everything going there are definately some NICE boosts there that are providing things people have been claming for over the past 6 years. Ranged tactics are FINALLY making their way into the game into some extent!

    As to other random abilities: Reset on Momentous Swing via cleave in LD. High tier Fury of the Wild's %chance to restore adrenaline uses. Random % chance for smites/light spells to stun from Exalted Angel. Random %chance in Magister for the nullmagic effect on hit.

    They exist out there even if other trees aren't DESIGNED around them.

  12. #132
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The idea is sound, but it's pretty much exactly this issue that's the problem. Right now, the exact same ability is better for repeaters than crossbows. Not to say it's a simple issue, but the problem described here as preferable to avoid is exactly the problem right now! It just happens to be slightly implicit instead of explicitly saying, "This ability triggers more often with repeating crossbows!", but it's still true regardless.
    It's okay to have an ED that targets one type of weapon over another as long as that other weapon type is not ignored in all EDs also.

    I actually do not mind this PrE being better for artificers if another PrE which targetted bow use was put out.

    Oh and RoF increases are the same percentage boosts to both styles for future reference unlike on proc effects.
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  13. #133
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    Why not add a passivly ability that causes you to fire a burst of arrows/bolts/thrown weapons on your next attack if you havent proced a random effect in the last x seconds. Works for every one but favors the slower weapons. Would also help balance out some of the randomness.

  14. #134
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Oh and RoF increases are the same percentage boosts to both styles for future reference unlike on proc effects.
    actually, so far as we can tell ROF increases are not the same. haste gives melee +15% attacks, but only about +7.5% attacks for ranged. and does absolutely nothing for spellcasters, of course.

  15. #135
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    actually, so far as we can tell ROF increases are not the same. haste gives melee +15% attacks, but only about +7.5% attacks for ranged. and does absolutely nothing for spellcasters, of course.
    Both styles meaning longbow/short and crossbows. They most certainly do work differently for ranged/melee.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I would like to see an ability that reduces manyshot's cooldown on something happening, ie 5s off the cooldown whenever you get a vorpal, or somthing along those lines.
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  17. #137
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulain View Post
    So glad you are able to pick and choose which effects emphasize your point while completely ignoring other ED that have SOME effects that are random.

    The Shiradi ED focuses on proc based damage because it is the most straight-forward way to benefit both casters and physical damage simultaneously. While I could understand that in some ways they could make a more ranged-centric ED if they had also included a seperate ED for Druid this is not what happened. Changing this to a purely ranged ED would leave druids with nowhere to go in the ED tree at 20 at this time.

    You have a subset of abilities that are proc based. 3 at any given time to be exact. Rainbow, with it's subsequent enhancements, stay good and stay frosty are all stances that you can only have 1 of. The other 2 real random proc based effects are both in the inherent granted.

    What you seem to have glossed over in the tree that is NOT random based (probably because it is counter to your argument) are the active clicky abilities low in the tree: pin, whistler and the knife toss (forget name off the top of my head). Since you were so quick to quote other classes actives I find it suspect that you completely ignore these in your arguments.

    Having played the Shiradi tree extensively on Lamannia I will tell you this... it is FUN. While it can definately use some tweaks it currently enhances the style of Arcane Archers everywhere with big burst/spike damage from RNG. It provides some pretty darn amazing static hit increases/ac decreases between Fey Favor and Track as well as dodge ignore (so far the only case of it anywhere!!). Damage is covered by the random procs along with stacking stationary damage increases (something that coincides with a long-standing Turbine standpoint of archers can't hit super hard while being mobile).

    The BIGGEST problems currently with this tree really are in the first tier. Unfortunately due to the nature of stances stay frosty can feel like a waste of points if/when you are looking to use rainbow. The knife toss, while nice, is looking at some nerfs to the point where the damage doesn't justify the long cooldown. Healing spring is also another ability that I am not personally fond of because of the wide range of effect it can give and very limited uses that it has per shrine. That being said when you get into the meat of the tree and get everything going there are definately some NICE boosts there that are providing things people have been claming for over the past 6 years. Ranged tactics are FINALLY making their way into the game into some extent!

    As to other random abilities: Reset on Momentous Swing via cleave in LD. High tier Fury of the Wild's %chance to restore adrenaline uses. Random % chance for smites/light spells to stun from Exalted Angel. Random %chance in Magister for the nullmagic effect on hit.

    They exist out there even if other trees aren't DESIGNED around them.

    I am so glad you approve. I ignored nothing I could have linked every single tier 1 effect from every ED there is and guess what, not one of the other tier 1 ED effect has a random chance to proc, yes a couple have saves, but even then the base effect is constant, but I guess reading would be counter to your argument.

    However, I was not talking about the proc rates on tier 1 or any tier; I was talking about the randomness of the effects of SC, not once did I say the other EDs have zero proc based abilities.

    My last post was in reference to Eladrin’s which in itself was in response to mine in reference to Vargouille’s earlier post, to which Eladrin made his post about Stay Frosty and Stay Good being consistent; which I pointed out that is not the case and comparing a tier 1 ability to a tier 6 one was a mistake anyway, after which I compared select tier 1s from other EDs to SC, to show that SC is quite a bit more random than any of the other EDs.

    BTW, I also have spent many hours on Lama, I did not admittedly get on there this last go around due to RL. I have also run my wiz, and fvs, I did not try my barb because he got TRed into a sorc, and will be my druid. Nor did I try a druid past level 12, again time issues. My testing on my AA shows a lot of fun stuff with SC, but the low rate of procs and the randomness is a major detraction to this ED; furthermore, the difference between the epic “feel” of this ED to the others I have tried is not even close. SC does not close the gap between other play styles and ranged melee it makes it worse.

    See the problem is I like this ED, SC has some great ideas behind it and the potential to really help out a group and by extension ranged melee toons, yet the problems with it are multifold, so far all my arguments have been about trying to remove the negative random possibilities, because frankly they are not epic, just lame. My argument has been presented as many different ways as I can think of in attempt to highlight the problem.

    Bottom line if I did not see the potential for SC, or if I did not in some ways like it, I would not care what they did with it, my casters will never use SC, and my AA would be just as happy as a shadowdancer, but guess what? I would really like my AA to be a SC if I know that in an epic raid my little old AA is going to help the party and not bork the run because he caused a d-door on the melee group in the boss fight or comes back as kobold when trying to heal up, or some other silly effect.
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  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've seriously looked into some options for balancing this. It's a complex issue and task. Something along these lines may happen.
    Can you at least wait until artificers get an actual ED before you rebalance the shiradi to better benefit longbows/shortbows?

    I don't like having to use a ranger ED anymore than you like artificers usurping it.

    EDIT: I think a rebalancing of all ranged combat would appropriate whenever the enhancement pass comes along. I'm sure there will be many new toys and different ways to enhance everything, so it all needs to be viewed through the same lens.
    Last edited by BananaHat; 06-15-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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  19. #139
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaHat View Post
    Can you at least wait until artificers get an actual ED before you rebalance the shiradi to better benefit longbows/shortbows?

    I don't like having to use a ranger ED anymore than you like artificers usurping it.
    EDs are, ias explained by the devs, not class based but combat style based. So, because you get a little less of SC ED, you will gain from some others to boost your arcane abilities if you choose to use either. The SC ED could use a little balancing so that repeater builds are not heads above all other ranged combat... more so than it is now.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    Bottom line if I did not see the potential for SC, or if I did not in some ways like it, I would not care what they did with it, my casters will never use SC, and my AA would be just as happy as a shadowdancer, but guess what? I would really like my AA to be a SC if I know that in an epic raid my little old AA is going to help the party and not bork the run because he caused a d-door on the melee group in the boss fight or comes back as kobold when trying to heal up, or some other silly effect.
    [/color]
    You can't use the DDoor. When you come back as a kobold from Audience with the Queen, it only lasts until you attack. If these are actually the things most worrying you, you should stop worrying. You said you played the class, but these particular worries are clearly based on theory, not play.

    Go play your raid!

    (Or, just use Stay Good instead of Double Rainbow, if it's really bothering you.)
    Last edited by Vargouille; 06-15-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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