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  1. #81
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    We'll look into beefing up Rain of Arrows. Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
    What if your ranger uses two swords?
    Then this is probably not the best Destiny for your character. But assuming you work up to 10 Favor of the Fey, you'll probably like Rain of Arrows more than other Rangers, since you'll be in the middle of the enemies.

  2. #82
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We'll look into beefing up Rain of Arrows. Thanks for the feedback.
    Cheers! When re-considering the ability, please take into account that as it currently stands Rain of Arrows will aggro and break some CC on every creature around you, in an area that you cannot control, for a long period of time.
    "And you ate an apple, and I ate a pear,
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  3. #83
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    I have to agree with RoA being a little less than Epic ATM. I think boosting the damage would be nice, but also adding in weapon / ability procs.
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  4. #84
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Maybe because it doesn't need a class skill?
    Obviously I meant “non-class” skill, forgive my typo.
    It's been said countless times that you can still have a workable diplomacy for the better effects even without any skill points into diplomacy, and terrible charisma. If you want to make the most out of it, you can equip an item for a boost, and make sure you have the stacks of Fey Favor for increased diplomacy.
    This has never been my point, (my previous post may have not been specific enough) my point has been and is, why a non-class skill to the use an epic tier 6 ability and one that is a cross skill for the primary class this destiny is for.
    Otherwise you still get a nice heal over time., with the side of effect of potentially turning into a kobold.
    So call it “epic destiny of potion of wonder” … How many people do you know chug those during a fight? Not really the same epic feel as any of the other destinies.
    You also realize that as far as the T6 abilities go in the Epic Destinies, you're only going to be able to pick up two of them. If you don't like this one, you have other options.
    I was under the impression that you could not twist a tier 6 ability, if I am wrong then please point me to where it is stated that this is the case.
    Also...OMG, have you SEEN Rain of Arrows? Every second, for 30 seconds, it has a chance to deal 1d100 to every enemy. That's pretty crazy.
    Yes I have seen it and … meh … as I posted before I did not want to get into if this destiny fails overall or not, but to say RoA is rather lacking would be akin to saying the Pacific ocean is a little wet. edit *** will have to wait and see what changes are made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    1 every ability should not be the same. That would be boring. I am glad they have an ability that uses a skill to improve it, more should IMO.
    It does not have to be the same, it has to be useful, and being a Kobold during a boss fight might be cute the first time, after that it becomes silly, not epic.
    2 listen would be a poor skill choice for that, maybe concentration would be more suited to the ability, but only because spellcraft isnt a skill in ddo... But I think that wasnt your point.
    of course concentration would be a better choice, and no it was not my point.
    3 magister was modeled after wizards, but it is for any arcane class that want to have the best DCs and anyone who wants some sweet magical defenses. NONE of the destinies are for a specific class, though all are based off one, they are instead each based on a specific playstyle. That is one of DDOs strongest areas is its versatility in character building. Class has a strong influence on your characters playstyle, but it is not the only thing that decides it.
    People will take destinies to twist things out, but at the end of the day you are not going to see very many barbarians with the magister destiny, nor are you going to see any blue bar taking FotW, ect… Until and unless more destinies are added, almost each type of toon has a primary destiny (sorry cleric, and tempest), there of course will be a few people that want to do something different or weird, but for the most part ranged toons are going to be in this one, and ranger and arti are the two classes associated with ranged melee combat, it only follows that they should get the most out of it especially at tier 6.
    4 In the case of shiradi chanpion, Im pretty sure it was made for evoker archmages with the chain missle SLA. The exploding damage procs will be awesome.
    A few min/max people might grind the XP necessary to get to it but most will stay with magister, and even if you are correct see my last statement under your number 3.
    5 In my mind Im comparing the complaining about diplomacy, which can be sufficiently high after a single AH trip, to the character changes that are causing some to LR... I find it amusing
    I did not think I compared it to anyone having to LR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
    Thanks, that's a good breakdown. I'm glad to see someone else agreeing that the epic moment is not very epic and in fact is pretty uninspiring. For anyone who doesn't invest in Diplomacy, there's really nothing in this Epic Destiny's Tier 6 abilities that looks attractive.
    This is my concern as well.
    With all that said I still have not gotten the answer to my primary question, why diplo? If you want to fix it, the easiest would be to change it to concentration, so instead of how well you talk to your Queen it becomes how well you can maintain contact with her. Personally I would rather you did away with the random negative effects altogether as this is the only tier 6 ability with that possibility, it is silly, not epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    I just don't think it's right to make fun of DDO's NPCs. Infractions for everyone!

  5. #85
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We'll look into beefing up Rain of Arrows. Thanks for the feedback.



    Then this is probably not the best Destiny for your character. But assuming you work up to 10 Favor of the Fey, you'll probably like Rain of Arrows more than other Rangers, since you'll be in the middle of the enemies.
    Maybe up the damage (remove the % chance for it to do anything), and add a CC effect? Slow, trip, pin (can't move, but can act) would all be pretty nice and in-theme for a hail of arrows coming down upon their heads.
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  6. #86
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    use rain of arrows then go to the audience with a queen

    so 1/4 of the time of the rain you are invulnerable/out and then return with heal and buff (hopefully)

  7. #87
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    @Rdasca

    You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of ED's entirely. You say "why a non-class skill to the use an epic tier 6 ability and one that is a cross skill for the primary class this destiny is for." but the developers have stated multiple times that ED's are no longer designed for a primary class. They are designed for roles and playstyles.

    Yes there are no ED's that SPECIFICALLY cater to TWF, as in granting TWF only bonuses. Is this an oversight? Perhaps. However many people have pointed out that there are substantial bonuses in multiple different ED's that are useful(and sometimes even better) for tempest style rangers. Shiradi is designed primarily for Ranged combat and spellcasters, not the ranger class.

  8. #88
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    @Rdasca

    You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of ED's entirely. You say "why a non-class skill to the use an epic tier 6 ability and one that is a cross skill for the primary class this destiny is for." but the developers have stated multiple times that ED's are no longer designed for a primary class. They are designed for roles and playstyles.

    Yes there are no ED's that SPECIFICALLY cater to TWF, as in granting TWF only bonuses. Is this an oversight? Perhaps. However many people have pointed out that there are substantial bonuses in multiple different ED's that are useful(and sometimes even better) for tempest style rangers. Shiradi is designed primarily for Ranged combat and spellcasters, not the ranger class.
    Yeah, and the devs have also said they expect tempest to take FotW, your point?

    I am misunderstanding nothing, I know how the devs want this to work, my wizard is going to grind several million xp to get over to SD just to be able to twist an ability or two, oh wait I can buy my way over there.

    BTW, if the destinies are not designed for a specific class than why are people forced to choose one in their toon's sphere?

    And yes that was a rhetorical question.

    By default each destiny is geared towards a certain play style, and SD is geared toward those that play a ranged style, rangers are one of two classes in the game that have built-in incentives to be ranged melee focused. This is why I say "why a non-class skill" because for rangers, artis and even arcanes diplo is a non-class skill.

    My main thing; however, is that there are negative effects associated with this ability, based on that "non-class" skill, how is that epic?

    I would prefer that they remove the negative effects all together; however, if they just have to leave this mechanic in the game then it needs to be from a skill that is already one that most will have had some reason to build up as opposed to one that most have little or no need for. And I do not think I need to have another piece of gear just to be able to use one ability, that may or may not help.

    So if the devs are going to put this in in its current form we are left with either chancing something silly to happen to our toon during a raid or not using the ability at all, for a tier 6 ability I find the prospect of that more than disheartening.

    I know, I know, just don't take it, who needs the extra healing anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    I just don't think it's right to make fun of DDO's NPCs. Infractions for everyone!

  9. #89
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    With all that said I still have not gotten the answer to my primary question, why diplo? If you want to fix it, the easiest would be to change it to concentration, so instead of how well you talk to your Queen it becomes how well you can maintain contact with her. Personally I would rather you did away with the random negative effects altogether as this is the only tier 6 ability with that possibility, it is silly, not epic.
    Your question keeps changing.

    As far as I can tell it is diplomacy for two reasons:
    1 It fits thematically.
    2 It will encourage ten thousand kiting idjits to build up an ability that can also be used to mitigate aggro, making it a buff to ranged combat team play IMHO... A sneaky buff.

    As to your other comments, in no paticular order:

    I didn't say you were comparing diplo reqirements to LRing. I was drawing the comparison between them.

    Shiradi is not the ranger ED, it is the ranged combat ED, benefitting bolts arrows and even spells. Your AA may like shadowdancer much more, if shiradi is unappealing to you. If it was the ranger ED its abilities eould be based on both TWF and bows. That is the way I see it. I understand you dont see it the same way, but if you were willing to look from a different perspective, things might look differnt for you.

    Though I agree with everyone saying it shouldnt involve penalties.

    And rain of arrows needs to be a simular power level to all the other epic moments.
    Last edited by Havok.cry; 06-13-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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  10. #90
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Your question keeps changing.

    As far as I can tell it is diplomacy for two reasons:
    1 It fits thematically.
    2 It will encourage ten thousand kiting idjits to build up an ability that can also be used to mitigate aggro, making it a buff to ranged combat team play IMHO... A sneaky buff.

    As to your other comments, in no paticular order:

    I didn't say you were comparing diplo reqirements to LRing. I was drawing the comparison between them.

    Shiradi is not the ranger ED, it is the ranged combat ED, benefitting bolts arrows and even spells. Your AA may like shadowdancer much more, if shiradi is unappealing to you. If it was the ranger ED its abilities eould be based on both TWF and bows. That is the way I see it. I understand you dont see it the same way, but if you were willing to look from a different perspective, things might look differnt for you.

    Though I agree with everyone saying it shouldnt involve penalties.

    And rain of arrows needs to be a simular power level to all the other epic moments.
    No my question remains the same, why diplo and not something that is more appropriate to the class(es) that will be the primary users of this destiny. I have suggested dex, wis, and even concentration as alternatives and even given a plausible reason to use that instead of diplo.

    As for your number two, yes you have stated before that you think “idjits” make up most of the ranged using people in the game. Funny if they are “idjits” then how would they learn to use diplo in the first place, as it is much easier to learn to kite properly.

    I me try again, SC is the ED that is ranged focused therefore most people taking it will be ranged type toons, therefore an AA ranger (or deep woods sniper) will have the best fit with this ED, and will have to take it as their starting ED as FotW is next to useless to an AA. And I never said SC was unappealing to me, I have basically stated over and over again that this tier 6 ability is unappealing to me (and from other post in this thread, and talking to others in game and elsewhere, not only to me) and would like it to be brought in line with other tier 6 abilities. I think I am not the only one having trouble “willing to look from a different perspective”.

    If they get rid of the negative effects then I have no real complaint.

    At least we agree on something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    I just don't think it's right to make fun of DDO's NPCs. Infractions for everyone!

  11. #91
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    in all probability, it will take at most a very minor investment in your character to be able to reliably avoid the bad result. it's much like many of the other options that way... many of the various epic abilities are sort of decent if you invest nothing, but are quite effective if you make an investment in gear, feats, or heroic enhancements.

    in this case, the investment you should expect to be making is into having a decent diplomacy score, if you want the good results from this ability. just as an avenging angel will get better mileage out of having access to light and healing spells. the destiny offers some help there (by offering one light spell and one healing spell), but ultimately, it is much better if you have those on your character separate from the destiny. and it is much much much easier for a ranger to invest in decent diplo than it is for a paladin to gain access to more light spells, or for a cleric to keep spamming light spells, or for a bard to keep spamming light spells, any of which might want various things from the avenging angel (which is also currently the closest thing to a healing destiny).

  12. #92
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    No my question remains the same, why diplo and not something that is more appropriate to the class(es) that will be the primary users of this destiny. I have suggested dex, wis, and even concentration as alternatives and even given a plausible reason to use that instead of diplo.

    As for your number two, yes you have stated before that you think “idjits” make up most of the ranged using people in the game. Funny if they are “idjits” then how would they learn to use diplo in the first place, as it is much easier to learn to kite properly.

    I me try again, SC is the ED that is ranged focused therefore most people taking it will be ranged type toons, therefore an AA ranger (or deep woods sniper) will have the best fit with this ED, and will have to take it as their starting ED as FotW is next to useless to an AA. And I never said SC was unappealing to me, I have basically stated over and over again that this tier 6 ability is unappealing to me (and from other post in this thread, and talking to others in game and elsewhere, not only to me) and would like it to be brought in line with other tier 6 abilities. I think I am not the only one having trouble “willing to look from a different perspective”.

    If they get rid of the negative effects then I have no real complaint.

    At least we agree on something.
    Please dont put words in my mouth. I dont think all ranged toons everywhere are idjits. I think the ones who will neither learn aggro management, nor how to kite properly are idjits. Hence my use of the term "kiting idjits"

    My comment is: you seem to be laboring under the (in my experience) mistaken idea that most AAs are rangers. I have met about 5 multiclassed non-pure-ranger AAs for every ranger AA Ive ever seen in game. Most now only have around six ranger levels. This may be why people are trying to get you to understand why this isnt the ranger destiny.
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  13. #93
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Rain of Arrows now has a 10% chance each second to deal 10d100 damage. Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type.


    This is potentially still subject to some changing/buffing in the future.


    Also removed a great deal of excess combat log spam associated with various Prism line effects.
    Last edited by Vargouille; 06-13-2012 at 04:43 PM.

  14. #94
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Rain of Arrows now has a 10% chance each second to deal 10d100 damage. Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type.


    This is potentially still subject to some changing/buffing in the future.


    Also removed a great deal of excess combat log spam associated with Rainbow effects.
    So average of 49.5 damage per second per target, a nice improvement (I'd much rather see it do damage at a 100% chance though, but much lower values. There's enough stuff in this branch that's up to chance as it is). Still think it could be a bit better.

    Do each damage die (as all 10 are random) have separate chance to trigger Destiny effects (like prism and rainbow and such), that is, if it can trigger them at all?

  15. #95
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Please dont put words in my mouth. I dont think all ranged toons everywhere are idjits. I think the ones who will neither learn aggro management, nor how to kite properly are idjits. Hence my use of the term "kiting idjits"

    My comment is: you seem to be laboring under the (in my experience) mistaken idea that most AAs are rangers. I have met about 5 multiclassed non-pure-ranger AAs for every ranger AA Ive ever seen in game. Most now only have around six ranger levels. This may be why people are trying to get you to understand why this isnt the ranger destiny.
    I did not, you said "It will encourage ten thousand kiting idjits"

    Anyway, it makes no difference, diplo is the symptom of the issue, would like an answer to my question? Yes, but I never really expected one.

    You quoted me so I assume you actual read it: If they get rid of the negative effects then I have no real complaint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    I just don't think it's right to make fun of DDO's NPCs. Infractions for everyone!

  16. #96
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    I did not, you said "It will encourage ten thousand kiting idjits"
    I'm not sure how you can interpret that to mean All ranged. I did specify the kiting ones, and idjits infers the ones who aren't smart. Take those together and you get a much narrower group than all, or even most. As to the number ten thousand, given that I'm not a turbine employee, you might consider that the number may have been pulled out of a deep dark hole to put in place of the word "alot" as a random number makes the sentence more interesting.

    You seem to have missed my point entirely though. If archers who are poor party members are encouraged, by a high level ability, to gain the ability to not be as poor of party members, then it is a good thing IMHO. The diplomacy requirement does that. People see audience and think hmm I should get diplomacy. Then they have it and they think hmm I might as well use it. So they put it on their hot bar and a bajillion melees rejoice as the "kiting idjit" population takes a drastic drop in numbers.

    The anti archer hate that is rampant in the game dies down due to this population drop and the game in general becomes a better environment for the archer player, because of that diplomacy the devs encouraged him to pick up, he no longer plays in a manner detrimental to the vast majority of players, and is not left behind in lava pools by healers anymore.

    I could go on and on with this scenario, but I assume you personally don't care much. Your inventory slot is important to you and you shouldn't have to carry another item. You also shouldn't have to put any work into increasing a cross class skill no matter how useful it might be... I wonder if you feel the same about umd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Rain of Arrows now has a 10% chance each second to deal 10d100 damage. Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type.


    This is potentially still subject to some changing/buffing in the future.


    Also removed a great deal of excess combat log spam associated with various Prism line effects.
    If each of them is applied separately, like a magic missle effect, that would be awesome, so it would allow each die to proc all the effects. /hopes and prays
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  17. #97
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    Shiradi is not the ranger ED, it is the ranged combat ED, benefitting bolts arrows and even spells. Your AA may like shadowdancer much more, if shiradi is unappealing to you. If it was the ranger ED its abilities eould be based on both TWF and bows. That is the way I see it. I understand you dont see it the same way, but if you were willing to look from a different perspective, things might look differnt for you.
    See, I'm not so sure I agree with your statement that Shiradi is not the Ranger ED. I totally agree, the EDs are meant to allow people to try different play styles, however I don't think the Dev's were intended different combat play styles, but class play styles. Every other ED strongly resembles the class it comes from, creating an obvious link between the play style of the class and the ED. This one however seems to have a very strained link, which focuses on the most unplayable part of the Ranger however highly significant parts of the Artificer.

    My bets are, if Artificers had an ED that resembled them more, this ED would look totally different. I hope when/if the Artificer ED comes out, this ED gets a working over to make it fit the Ranger play style more.

    At the end of the day EDs are also marketing tool for Turbine; people will spend points leveling EDs, buying things for EDs, as well as creating new characters after trying different EDs and finding they enjoy that type of class play style, and then they'll start the point spending cycle all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Rain of Arrows now has a 10% chance each second to deal 10d100 damage. Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type.

    This is potentially still subject to some changing/buffing in the future.

    Also removed a great deal of excess combat log spam associated with various Prism line effects.
    Well progress is progress, it doesn't really stand out to me as amazing however. Specifically, "Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type." really worries me, its just too unpredictable, I'd expect to see a bunch of 'immune' pop up of I'm understanding what you mean by this.

    Its not like any other ED's Epic Moment has a random factor to it, its not like Unbridled Fury has a 25% chance of imploding the party randomly, or after Fearsome Invulnerability you have to make a Fortitude Save or suddenly become incapacitated.

    This ED is weak enough as it is, please, Vargouille, don't hold back on this Epic Moment, as it stands, it already costs 2 AP, yet other, better ones only cost 1 AP.

    Also, can someone do some maths for me? How does my suggestion work out for damage?

    Rain of arrows (required 20 - No prereq) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 7secs)
    Every 5 seconds for 30 seconds each enemy around you has a 25% chance to take 20d20 + 100 bane damage. On being stuck enemies must make a reflex of (Character Level / 2) + Wilderness Lore Bonus + Dexterity Modifier or else take an additional 3d6+60 Bane Damage every 2 seconds for a duration of 12 seconds regardless of being in the target area. Enemies can only have this effect applied after any previous stacks have ended. This effect generates 75% less threat than a standard attack.
    Cost: 10 Fey Favor.
    || Arari - Cleric Rogue || Athyria - Satanic Mechanic || Ethirial - Arcane Archer || Tiarinlasa - Spell Singer || Zirron - Divine Avenger ||


  18. #98
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Rain of Arrows now has a 10% chance each second to deal 10d100 damage. Each of the ten dice of damage is a random damage type.
    Much nicer! I guess the effectiveness will depend on how common resistances are on enemies. I especially like that when the ability hits an enemy, it's for a noticeable amount (~500). If I were to suggest a change, it would be to increase the proc rate, maybe in exchange reducing the duration. I find that less randomness makes an ability more useful, and I'd prefer a shorter duration of greater utility than a longer duration of uncertain utility. Still, this looks vastly improved to me.

    Edit: In thinking about this more, I think that adding a trip or slow effect would really, really make this more useful. Previous comment about low proc rate stands, but ranged characters are hurting for some CC, and this could be a nice effect.
    Last edited by Schmoe; 06-13-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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  19. #99
    Community Member Schmoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    Also, can someone do some maths for me? How does my suggestion work out for damage?
    Rain of arrows (required 20 - No prereq) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 7secs)
    Every 5 seconds for 30 seconds each enemy around you has a 25% chance to take 20d20 + 100 bane damage. On being stuck enemies must make a reflex of (Character Level / 2) + Wilderness Lore Bonus + Dexterity Modifier or else take an additional 3d6+60 Bane Damage every 2 seconds for a duration of 12 seconds regardless of being in the target area. Enemies can only have this effect applied after any previous stacks have ended. This effect generates 75% less threat than a standard attack.
    Cost: 10 Fey Favor.
    Enemies take on average 16 dps if they make their saving throws. If they fail a save, they will take an additional 420 damage, which works out to an additional 14 dps over the duration of the effect. Enemies will be forced to make an average of 1.5 saving throws over the duration of the effect. If you assume a 50% save rate, that works out to a total of about 10 extra dps for the dot effect, for a grand total of 26 dps per enemy in range, assuming the enemy remains in range the entire time. If you assume a 0% save rate, that works out to an additional 21 extra dps for the dot effect, for a grand total of 37 dps per enemy in range.
    Last edited by Schmoe; 06-13-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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  20. #100
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
    Enemies take on average 16 dps if they make their saving throws. If they fail a save, they will take an additional 420 damage, which works out to an additional 14 dps over the duration of the effect. Enemies will be forced to make an average of 1.5 saving throws over the duration of the effect. If you assume a 50% save rate, that works out to a total of about 10 extra dps for the dot effect, for a grand total of 26 dps per enemy in range, assuming the enemy remains in range the entire time. If you assume a 0% save rate, that works out to an additional 21 extra dps for the dot effect, for a grand total of 37 dps per enemy in range.
    Thanks for doing that! Looks like my numbers need to be upped a lot, I was originally using 20d20 + 500 for the main effect and 6d12 + 60 for the DoT but thought it would be to over the top. I guess I was wrong. Over all, of my numbers were upped more would you rather the feel of my Epic Moment to the current one? Any changes you'd make to make it better? If you don't want to answer/can't be bothered I understand, I tend to notice ideas brought out through play to play discussion seem to get more attention from Dev's than people who start heaps of threads and threads about it over and over however, so I tend to ask for other plays input.
    || Arari - Cleric Rogue || Athyria - Satanic Mechanic || Ethirial - Arcane Archer || Tiarinlasa - Spell Singer || Zirron - Divine Avenger ||


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