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  1. #1
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Default Feedback: Unyielding Sentinel

    Use this thread to provide specific feedback about this Epic Destiny! General Epic Destiny feedback should be keep to the main Epic Destiny thread.

  2. #2
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Needs to-hit bonuses. Defenders struggle with their attack rolls a bit since they aren't benefiting from Backstabbing bonuses or exceptional sneak attack, and because they typically cannot afford to maximize their attack stat (Str usually) the way DPS-focused characters can.

    Could really stand to gain some bonuses to Intimidate (and possibly an alternative use for the skill?). This is the tanking ED, yet it doesn't interact at all with one of the central mechanics to DDO tanking.

    Could really stand to increase paladin caster levels for spell durations, as well as count as paladin levels for the purposes of Smite Evil and Lay On Hands damage, or have an enhancement line that simply adds a bonus to those as if this were increasing levels there, adding +10 damage to smite per rank, and +11 damage to LOH per rank. This would keep those abilities from feeling too weak in epics (smite already feels incredibly weak long before getting to level 20), and would allow non-paladin characters in the destiny to actually get some use out of the abilities they pick up here.

    If this Destiny is meant to be the tanking destiny and open to all, you could consider adding a Defender-like stance that grants a % AC increase that doesn't stack with that granted by Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, and for a smaller amount so that other characters can get a somewhat competitive AC value. Not sure I'd want the defender PrEs losing some of their exclusivity, but if the intent is for this destiny to make anyone a reasonably viable tank, then it should probably have something along these lines.

    So, this is the paladin epic Destiny. Yes, the class attachments are only semi-relevant, and they are more aimed at particular roles, but with Smite Evil, Turn Undead and Lay On Hands, this is clearly designed with paladins as a major focus.

    That said, it currently deals with 3 of the paladin's class features (see above), and 2 or 3 of the paladin's roles (tanking, survivability, off-healing), but doesn't seem to deal at all with the paladin's other major class feature and role: party support via their aura (buffs). Paladins in DDO have always had this minor role, and I've always believed that it should be built upon a bit more.

    Paladins, even when tanking, are providing their allies with support via leader-type buffs, and I'd like to see the Destiny play with that a bit. I feel like it should get at least a couple of abilities that work off of the aura, granting some boons to the paladin's companions. With the update, the previously disregarded Bulwark of Good will probably be something your entire party will appreciate, in addition to the saves aura, and that especially with the removal of some of our immunities. And if we see more of our immunities get changed in the way that Poison and Disease did, that saves aura will become that much more useful, and we may even finally have some real use for our Aura of Courage as well!

    Some potential ideas:

    • A healing amp aura that provides +5/10/15% amp
    • A PRR aura that provides PRR of 5/10/15 or 10/15/20
    • An aura similar to Inspire Courage granting +1/2/3 to attack, damage and saves against fear that does not stack with bard songs (see this as an alternative).
    • The Destiny could improve upon the existing auras granting +2 to the effects of all of a paladin's auras.
    • A togglable aura that causes the attacks of everyone in the aura to generate threat for YOU.
    • An aura that grants everyone either light damage or good damage, probably just +1d6, but if good it would be akin to an artificer buffing everyone with Aligned Weapons: Good, but only while they remain near the paladin.
    • Stacking elemental resistances (including Light).

    Maybe even tie these to the stances that are auto-grants for the Destiny, further differentiating their playstyles.

    Would be nice if Light the Dark did either 150 damage or damage equal to your LOH, rather than just 150, so that characters with more paladin levels or Cha feel rewarded for their investment/loyalty.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Needs to-hit bonuses. Defenders struggle with their attack rolls a bit since they aren't benefiting from Backstabbing bonuses or exceptional sneak attack, and because they typically cannot afford to maximize their attack stat (Str usually) the way DPS-focused characters can.
    Can't stress this point enough. Tanks do not have enough to-hit. Also, consider removing the -2 attack from Tower Shields through some enhancement in this destiny.

    Could really stand to gain some bonuses to Intimidate (and possibly an alternative use for the skill?). This is the tanking ED, yet it doesn't interact at all with one of the central mechanics to DDO tanking.

    Could really stand to increase paladin caster levels for spell durations, as well as count as paladin levels for the purposes of Smite Evil and Lay On Hands damage, or have an enhancement line that simply adds a bonus to those as if this were increasing levels there, adding +10 damage to smite per rank, and +11 damage to LOH per rank. This would keep those abilities from feeling too weak in epics (smite already feels incredibly weak long before getting to level 20), and would allow non-paladin characters in the destiny to actually get some use out of the abilities they pick up here.

    If this Destiny is meant to be the tanking destiny and open to all, you could consider adding a Defender-like stance that grants a % AC increase that doesn't stack with that granted by Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, and for a smaller amount so that other characters can get a somewhat competitive AC value. Not sure I'd want the defender PrEs losing some of their exclusivity, but if the intent is for this destiny to make anyone a reasonably viable tank, then it should probably have something along these lines.

    Would be nice if Light the Dark did either 150 damage or damage equal to your LOH, rather than just 150, so that characters with more paladin levels or Cha feel rewarded for their investment/loyalty.
    Agree wholeheartedly with all of this.
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  4. #4
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    There are plans to add Intimidate and at least some to-hit bonuses.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Does the good damage and holy damage stack with a paladin's capstone?

    Why is this so redundant with a paladin capstone?

    What it the point of going all the way to level 20 on a paladin?

    I've said it before in the closed beta, and I'll say it again. I know the dev's can be more creative than to simply reuse the paladin capstone.

  6. #6
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Yes, the damage stacks.

  7. #7
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There are plans to add Intimidate and at least some to-hit bonuses.
    Thanks. That's good to know.
    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    Does the good damage and holy damage stack with a paladin's capstone?

    Why is this so redundant with a paladin capstone?

    What it the point of going all the way to level 20 on a paladin?

    I've said it before in the closed beta, and I'll say it again. I know the dev's can be more creative than to simply reuse the paladin capstone.
    Since it stacks, that's more damage. Also, I suspect we will get some more/new capstones when the enhancement update comes along.

    In any case, 20 paladin does indeed look rather weak, especially with so many feats getting a boost and /2 fighter not really detracting from your abilities in any significant way at present.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  8. #8
    Community Member etelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    In any case, 20 paladin does indeed look rather weak, especially with so many feats getting a boost and /2 fighter not really detracting from your abilities in any significant way at present.
    Agreed, already in live 18/2 is a more popular end game tank. Giving DR bypass to US makes pure builds even less useful. What if US did additional light damage instead of getting holy/good? Not to mention SD's which most consider the optimal eLoB choice.

  9. #9
    Community Member etelan's Avatar
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    Also, with regards to paladin I would like to see more bonuses for heavy shields specifically. As it stands right now if your going S&B you have no choice, but to go all in for tower. This is a big reason for the fighter splash and the free prof + 2 feats. Can we have a reason to care about heavy shields? Maybe inherit shield bashing or higher dodge % than with tower.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etelan View Post
    Also, with regards to paladin I would like to see more bonuses for heavy shields specifically. As it stands right now if your going S&B you have no choice, but to go all in for tower. This is a big reason for the fighter splash and the free prof + 2 feats. Can we have a reason to care about heavy shields? Maybe inherit shield bashing or higher dodge % than with tower.
    they should just give the paladin the tower shield proficiency feat for free.

  11. #11
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    Default free tower prof feat

    yes they should. i wonder what the logic/reasoning was for not just giving the paladin the feat for free...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasAshworth View Post
    yes they should. i wonder what the logic/reasoning was for not just giving the paladin the feat for free...
    I haven't checked 3.5 rules but I'm guessing that they don't get it in P&P so that would have been the original rational. Now that we're moving farther from base rules maybe it will be reconsidered at some point.

  13. #13
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    they should just give the paladin the tower shield proficiency feat for free.
    IMO they should instead give DoS a capstone ability that grants them bastard sword style glancing blows with longswords (as though they had all three THF feats). But that's outside UnyS discussion.
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  14. #14
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    They could give tower shield prof as an optional enhancement in this destiny. Makes it a cost for Paladins and a choice to ignore for fighters.

    Like the info on to hit and intimidate being added.

    Saw in Nivarch's thread you now have to be in Stan against the Tide stance to get the holy/good damage, so at least Palis have the inherent option of using a different sance.

    Still wont take Intolerant Blow, Confront any foe or Light the dark as they use resources that are worth more to a paladin than these abilities. Especially since I am not a THF (or have cleave line) so have no way to keep aggro of a group of mobs if I get it.

    Did unbreakable lose its PRR bonus?
    Last edited by SteeleTrueheart; 06-07-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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  15. #15
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etelan View Post
    Agreed, already in live 18/2 is a more popular end game tank. Giving DR bypass to US makes pure builds even less useful. What if US did additional light damage instead of getting holy/good? Not to mention SD's which most consider the optimal eLoB choice.
    I'd prefer to see a more interesting reworking of DoS with the enhancement patch, including a more interesting capstone for all 3 paladin PrEs (with at least one of them--KotC--retaining some of the functionality of the current cap, but in addition to some other bonus).
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  16. #16
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    Can we have Vigor of battle's healing amp stack please?

  17. #17
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    Block energy (min level: 20) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive) While blocking, absorb [10/20/30]% acid, cold, electric, fire, force, light and sonic damage

    Is this no shield no service? Or does it work with all melee weapons?

  18. #18
    Community Member Judo's Avatar
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    Default Fighter Hate?

    DoS isn't the only tank PrE in the game, so why does the Stalwart become the red headed stepchild of the tanking world? We have to go thru 4 levels of Grandmaster of
    flowers to even become a comparatively viable tanking option when the expansion comes out.

    Suggestions:

    -reduce the amount of levels needed into "flowthru" destinies
    -allow us to pick a main destiny and a secondary destiny, but make each rank cost 1 step hire
    -simply give defensive PrE's access to the "defensive" destiny
    -remove the 3 silly "divine" aspects of US (smite, loh, turn)
    -if not removed, make the divine aspects of US expensive for non divine

    The entire destiny has no divine aspects accept for those 3, which we didn't ask for. Stalwarts still wish to be tanks, but it's unfair to make them work twice as hard to be viable.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judo View Post
    DoS isn't the only tank PrE in the game, so why does the Stalwart become the red headed stepchild of the tanking world? We have to go thru 4 levels of Grandmaster of
    flowers to even become a comparatively viable tanking option when the expansion comes out.

    Suggestions:

    -reduce the amount of levels needed into "flowthru" destinies
    -allow us to pick a main destiny and a secondary destiny, but make each rank cost 1 step hire
    -simply give defensive PrE's access to the "defensive" destiny
    -remove the 3 silly "divine" aspects of US (smite, loh, turn)
    -if not removed, make the divine aspects of US expensive for non divine

    The entire destiny has no divine aspects accept for those 3, which we didn't ask for. Stalwarts still wish to be tanks, but it's unfair to make them work twice as hard to be viable.

    I was testing the twists, and to get a tier 3, 2, and 1 twisted ability, you need to get to level 5 all but 1 destiny to have enough twist points. Trust me, you wont have a problem with the "flowthru" destinies.
    (I was trying to twist the To hit action boost, the to damage, and the haste ones from the fighter tree to play with them).
    And btw.... somehow I have 4000%+ fortification... not sure how/why, but I do.
    and i will restate this... PLEASE MAKE VIGOR's healing amp stack!

  20. #20
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathook2012 View Post
    I was testing the twists, and to get a tier 3, 2, and 1 twisted ability, you need to get to level 5 all but 1 destiny to have enough twist points. Trust me, you wont have a problem with the "flowthru" destinies.
    (I was trying to twist the To hit action boost, the to damage, and the haste ones from the fighter tree to play with them).
    And btw.... somehow I have 4000%+ fortification... not sure how/why, but I do.
    and i will restate this... PLEASE MAKE VIGOR's healing amp stack!
    That's if you want the twists, and if you wouldn't rather just be playing in one destiny that is appealing to you.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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