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  1. #41
    Founder Nyvn's Avatar
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    So monks and monk splashes still get less AC, less PRR, and have to slot a ton of items for small dodge bonuses to have any defense?

  2. #42
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyvn View Post
    So monks and monk splashes still get less AC, less PRR, and have to slot a ton of items for small dodge bonuses to have any defense?
    Not mentioning that you can do the same thing in medium or even heavy armors on the right build and have same dodge,
    but more AC and PRR??

    Cloth is screwed and the devs are scratching their heads on it with no comments....
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyvn View Post
    So monks and monk splashes still get less AC, less PRR, and have to slot a ton of items for small dodge bonuses to have any defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post

    Cloth is screwed and the devs are scratching their heads on it with no comments....
    They need to add the DEX and WIS modifiers to Dodge as well as AC and cloth is un-screwed. Still not as good at over-all damage mitigation as light-armor but it won't be in the terrible shape it is now.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    To me it sounds like a fairly balanced system (holding judgement till I see it in play).....

    I see it as a split path.....start with AC that helps reduce hits at chance. Then you split path and decide to get more PRR or Dodge. With heavier armors you get PRR with light/cloth armours you get more dodge. Both choices reduce incoming damage one by reducing the amount of damage you take so higher percentage reductions of a certainty of being hit vs. a lower percentage chance of eliminating the hit at all.

    I can't speak to the balance between PRR vs. Dodge and/or the ability to double down and get both in play. I don't want an all or nothing approach, but I do want to see light armour wearers get a higher possible dodge score vs. heavy armour wearers. From the notes I think this will happen since there was mention of a max dex type bonus for the armour type applying to dodge as well.

    Definitely wait and see but.....overall I like the direction. Obviously this will get tweeked along the way.
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  5. #45
    Community Member bringjoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashiry View Post
    Why was the displacement spell changed, pointless nerf....
    Clearly it's because melee are OP and need another nerf while the poor arcanes are going to need all the help they can get
    Yes, I really did like the old red tent. And its music.

  6. #46

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    Wow, this changes really seem to be made in great haste without much thought to what the broader consequences might be... and you devs are still planning to put them in the live servers?!

    Sorry to say this, but it seems like a very stupid move at this point, or at least let's say you should've worked a bit harder on the combat system before launching the expansion. I mean, will this help with the new content but make the old one broken? Will all content be easier for new players, but broken for high level toons? Have you thought about any of these and similar implications at all?

    I'd rather you held this overhaul until you come up with something decent, instead of this over complicated mess. I wouldn't be very proud of a change like this, if I were paid to come up with a combat system update for an RPG.

    I'm sure most people would prefer having to wait a little while longer for a revamp of the system, rather than see this go live as it is now, but that's just my 2 cents.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svartelric View Post
    Wow, this changes really seem to be made in great haste without much thought to what the broader consequences might be... and you devs are still planning to put them in the live servers?!
    .
    "Improvised" to use dev Torc's word, because they had to "do something before launch".

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    "Improvised" to use dev Torc's word, because they had to "do something before launch".
    Yeah, it shows. As I said, I see no point in doing something just for the sake of doing something. Who does benefit from it? Certainly not us. Also, I love how no response at all is being given on issues such as Monks and Rangers being nerfed to the stone age.

    But hey, it's not like we pay them to give us a good game, right? Oh wait, we do.

  9. #49
    Community Member QNecron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    "Improvised" to use dev Torc's word, because they had to "do something before launch".
    This... this does not instill confidence into a player who loves making tanks.

    TBO after looking at the changes and the examples gives I was afraid of these kind of changes. They remind me too much of WoW in its massive inflation of numbers that don't mean anything. Actually after looking at how this "new" system is supposedly going to work I would sear I've seen it before... in another MMO.


    To Turbine: Would have been a whole lot easier to just place a realistic and semi flexible cap to AC and the To-Hit given. Yes I know that some of the forum goers would have called for "DOoOoOOOOooM" because you are capping something then point to strawmans about limiting other factors of the game, but it would have been OK. Promise.


    Either way I'm glad my next life on my "tank" wasn't going to be a tank spec so I get to sit back and see how this new system plays out, if at all.
    Last edited by QNecron; 06-07-2012 at 01:54 PM.

  10. #50
    Community Member dlsidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyvn View Post
    So monks and monk splashes still get less AC, less PRR, and have to slot a ton of items for small dodge bonuses to have any defense?
    Actually, my "untouchable" 18FvS/2Mnk gets hit way less, with a lower AC, on Llamaland than live, not counting the totally dodged attacks.

    My live AC with ship buffs is 36 (effectively 38 from AOV aura) at level 16. I get slapped around in Gianthold on normal. I have to keep an eye on my health in the Lordsmarch quests, which are 3-4 levels below me. Mind, most damage taken is melee, due to evasion and ridiculous saves.

    Llama: Standing AC is 33 (effective 35) at level 20. I can go toe-to-toe with epic drow warriors and be confident that they'll drop before I need to cast heal, and that's with the first tier continual temp-hp Unyielding Sovereign stance off.

    For a direct comparison, I did run around in the Vale both live and Llama at 16. Live, fiendish Trogs and Trolls were hitting far more than on Llama, and dying more slowly as I had to conserve more mana for healing vs. DPower, DPunishment, and BB.

    I'm not saying monks and splashes don't need some AC/dodge love, but it's not doomtime yet.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    Cloth is screwed and the devs are scratching their heads on it with no comments....
    That does appear to be the case. I guess I don't feel so bad that my Epic Cavalry Plate is now less effective than some +5 Full Plate I would normally sell as vendor trash.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bringjoy View Post
    Clearly it's because melee are OP and need another nerf while the poor arcanes are going to need all the help they can get
    [Shrug] The entire expansion appears to be an over reaction to all the "Casters are overpowered!!!" threads.

    The devs tried, but there is only so much that can credibly be done to classes which can be viably played by simply pressing and holding down a mouse button.

  13. #53
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    [Shrug] The entire expansion appears to be an over reaction to all the "Casters are overpowered!!!" threads.

    The devs tried, but there is only so much that can credibly be done to classes which can be viably played by simply pressing and holding down a mouse button.
    Cmon - not like casters are thaaaat much more complex.

    spacebar-1-spacebar-2

    or

    Circlestrafe-3-circlestrafe-4

    I play both melee's and casters. I actually find melee's more intensive during combat due to target selection, movement of mobs, kiting casters/archers, combat clickies, feats etc.... To me a caster is more about setting up your bars well for the current quest (or just having a good default setup)....then running and jump casting one of your top 4 spells.
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  14. #54
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Wow, after all the whining and complaining about "wanting an AC overhaul", you think I would of read more "Thank you" posts. I personally never wanted a change, thought the D20 system was fine and it was other items (i.e. itemization) and missteps that caused the problem. But there are pages upon pages of posts demanding that they change the AC system. Well I am proud to say you got your way and here it is. So unless you are posting a "Thank You" to the Dev's I really don't want to see another AC thread/post for quite awhile

    Now they can focus on something else, something that actually needs to be fixed.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Wow, after all the whining and complaining about "wanting an AC overhaul", you think I would of read more "Thank you" posts. I personally never wanted a change, thought the D20 system was fine and it was other items (i.e. itemization) and missteps that caused the problem. But there are pages upon pages of posts demanding that they change the AC system. Well I am proud to say you got your way and here it is. So unless you are posting a "Thank You" to the Dev's I really don't want to see another AC thread/post for quite awhile

    Now they can focus on something else, something that actually needs to be fixed.
    Well, to summarize from closed then: The mechanics are nice to see and open up a lot of potential for alternate encounter design. The scaling angle, side effects on buffs, debufs, stats, and racial bonii needs more work, followed up by revisiting the balance-point for PRR vs dodge.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlsidhe View Post
    Actually, my "untouchable" 18FvS/2Mnk gets hit way less, with a lower AC, on Llamaland than live, not counting the totally dodged attacks. My live AC with ship buffs is 36 (effectively 38 from AOV aura) at level 16. I get slapped around in Gianthold on normal. I have to keep an eye on my health in the Lordsmarch quests, which are 3-4 levels below me. Mind, most damage taken is melee, due to evasion and ridiculous saves.

    Llama: Standing AC is 33 (effective 35) at level 20. I can go toe-to-toe with epic drow warriors and be confident that they'll drop before I need to cast heal, and that's with the first tier continual temp-hp Unyielding Sovereign stance off.

    For a direct comparison, I did run around in the Vale both live and Llama at 16. Live, fiendish Trogs and Trolls were hitting far more than on Llama, and dying more slowly as I had to conserve more mana for healing vs. DPower, DPunishment, and BB.

    I'm not saying monks and splashes don't need some AC/dodge love, but it's not doomtime yet.
    Um, you received a massive boost since you were an AC gimp on live. You had miserable AC that wasn't worth anything in Gianthold. The DEVs gave you a freebie here. It's the toons that were building for AC that got pounded into the dirt, not the masses that had no worthwhile AC to speak of.

  17. #57
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    I can only hope that someone can corner a developer during the open beta tonight & ask them what is their vision for cloth users.

    I'm try not to be all doom, but I really can't see how monks are expected to go toe to toe in melee with less armor, little to no PRR and whatever dodge they can cobble together. I also find it disconcerting that the developers don't seem to want to talk about this. Maybe they just don't want us to play monks (which seems rather strange since they made an epic destiny for them & they are a ptp class, but hey, go figure...)

  18. #58
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Um, you received a massive boost since you were an AC gimp on live. You had miserable AC that wasn't worth anything in Gianthold. The DEVs gave you a freebie here. It's the toons that were building for AC that got pounded into the dirt, not the masses that had no worthwhile AC to speak of.
    Sorry but the vast majority that will be improved by this 'freebie' will also now pay attention to AC and strive to improve it. Before AC was an all or nothing affair (virtually anyway). Now minor improvements to your AC will be worthwhile. Going from 30-40AC(using old AC number) will make a noticeable difference for everyone.

    The people it won't help (as much) are the 80+AC miracle workers who were never hit in normal/hard combat and now still won't be hit much but will have much reduced damage when they hit those uber bosses that hit you regardless of AC before. I think these people will still be top tanks and have no more problems than they did before but now they may need to be healed a bit more while everyone else will be healed a bit less.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Another thing on cloth vs. heavy armor.....

    The way I read it is if as a cloth wearer you had say 70AC you will still have at least 70AC (maybe more) but if you are wearing heavy armour you with 70AC may now by 80-85 AC. That said with Heavy armour you will get more PRR but your Dodge will be capped by a lower max dex bonus. Where a Cloth wearer will get virtually no PRR but will Dodge more attacks.

    You will have hybrids of the two (ie. Mithral plate - lower AC, moderate PRR, higher dodge possible OR a monk in earth stance vs. a monk in wind stance more PRR vs. more Dodge).

    Is it all fleshed out an final - no - it's still in Beta and if I make my bet will take a few patches and a few updates to iron out all of the kinks. Is it a move in the right direction. Time will tell but my bet is on yes.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Another thing on cloth vs. heavy armor..... The way I read it is if as a cloth wearer you had say 70AC you will still have at least 70AC (maybe more) but if you are wearing heavy armour you with 70AC may now by 80-85 AC.
    No. Cloth users lost a significant chunk of AC because they converted all their AC yielding items to Dodge items.

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