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  1. #1
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    Default Pen&Paper: The original home of Person VS. Person

    The PvP forums. Ah I can almost smell all the hate and grief this sub forum has given rise to. It has always amused me and frankly surprised me how vocal the care bear population was on DDO, not to mention disgusted. Mostly because so many would tear down PvP while claiming with great passion that there never was any PvP around the table top.

    This struck me as laughable beyond the capability of any words to convey. You see the reason why is every single moment of a Pen and Paper session is Person VS. Person. Players are trying to outwit DMs, and if being properly role played usually each other as well.

    From the paladin that takes offense to the rogues lies, cheating, and stealing to the barbarian who decides to cave in the brains of the wizard the moment he goes to sleep, are all examples of common PnP PVP.

    Another example is the older editions classes often having requirements to gaining a level often included going to defeat another member of the same class of equal or greater level( old school AD&D kensai I am looking at you my precious), and this was always a great time for DMs who got to spend time practically making thier own character, with the soul intent of using it to face off in a one on one duel.

    Always was an extra special test of a DM to, does he abuse DM status to make an unfairly enhanced villain, or does he succeed in the ultimate test for a DM and keep himself bound to the same limits as his players, and prepare a character he may invest a fair bit of time in, even envisioning him as a potential new NPC rival. Finally when the moment comes and they face off, its often so nerve wracking for the player, wondering if its a PK build created just to cut his life short. Even as the DM if playing fairly strives to provide an action packed and cinematic scene for all to enjoy whether they are involved directly or just watching.

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    The PvP forums. Ah I can almost smell all the hate and grief this sub forum has given rise to. It has always amused me and frankly surprised me how vocal the care bear population was on DDO, not to mention disgusted. Mostly because so many would tear down PvP while claiming with great passion that there never was any PvP around the table top.
    The care bears are the ones telling everyone else who PVPs that you just got pwned when you lose but when you beat them, they are more than happy to remind you in general chat for the next 45 minutes about how your tactics are cheap, and how you need to be nerfed.

    The rest of us are just playing the game the way it was designed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    This struck me as laughable beyond the capability of any words to convey. You see the reason why is every single moment of a Pen and Paper session is Person VS. Person. Players are trying to outwit DMs, and if being properly role played usually each other as well.
    Nope, this is not correct by a long shot. There are specific things a DM is supposed to do that doesnt make it count as PVP. Namely metagaming. If I am DMing and I metagame, I will kill every single party and the game will be no fun. Part of PVP is metagaming. If I win alot, I dont win because I know my class, I win because I know all of the classes / builds and how to beat each one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    From the paladin that takes offense to the rogues lies, cheating, and stealing to the barbarian who decides to cave in the brains of the wizard the moment he goes to sleep, are all examples of common PnP PVP.
    Which is poor forced cooperation. Read the chapter in the DMs guide about killing parties off who refuse to coperate. Yeah, its in there.

    Its also poor RP for every papadin to be lawful stupid, and every barbarian to just think wizards are weak. See Rashemi. That barb would be kissing the wizards feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Another example is the older editions classes often having requirements to gaining a level often included going to defeat another member of the same class of equal or greater level( old school AD&D kensai I am looking at you my precious), and this was always a great time for DMs who got to spend time practically making thier own character, with the soul intent of using it to face off in a one on one duel.
    Still not metagaming, or like I stated, as a DM if I could metagame, no party would ever survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Always was an extra special test of a DM to, does he abuse DM status to make an unfairly enhanced villain, or does he succeed in the ultimate test for a DM and keep himself bound to the same limits as his players, and prepare a character he may invest a fair bit of time in, even envisioning him as a potential new NPC rival. Finally when the moment comes and they face off, its often so nerve wracking for the player, wondering if its a PK build created just to cut his life short. Even as the DM if playing fairly strives to provide an action packed and cinematic scene for all to enjoy whether they are involved directly or just watching.
    Poor DMs metagame against players. Good DMs already have their module designed previous to the characters even being rolled, or gave no consideration to metagaming when designing content and NPCs. They can still make it challenging for the players.

    The reason why this kind of elaborate PVP cant happen in DDO is because its limited to the zones it can happen in. This isnt EverQuest where zones arent instanced, and the people who get to camp spawns that drop good gear are defined by who kills who in PVP. If you want to get away from all the "care bears" I suggest trying that one out, and when you see the mentality that lurks in REAL PVP GAMES, youll come running back here to hang with the rest of us care bears.

    In a real PVP game, you constantly have to watch your back. Here we jump into the pit or into the PVP zone and we are on the alert. In a real PVP game, a rogue would be patient, and wait for you to drop your guard or become complacent, then off you and loot what they could. They wouldnt be forced to confront your sorc with 2 monk levels directly, which is absurd. Theyd wait til you had less than 10% HP left, then come out of the shadow and bump you off. 99% of the "care bears" in DDO PVP zones wouldnt be able to put up with this - they cant even handle song of capering without putting up a fit in general chat for the next half hour.
    Last edited by Chai; 06-04-2012 at 10:22 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Claims that PVE'rs are care bears? The entire PVP system in this game caters to the care bear mentality. Real PVP matches dont start and end the minute you jump into / out of the pit. In order for the game to be a real PVP game they would have to get rid of the entire instancing concept.

    Imagine the following.

    You want to do a Horoth raid.

    Since theres only one Horoth every 3 days per server (no instancing) and you just learned he is up, you quietly (as possible) assemble your raid force and head in. Youre in luck - no one else seems to know he spawned. Your raid commences. 3/4ths of the way through or so another guild comes into the zone and kills your healers. They got your caster pinned down and your tank is dead. They begin setting up their raid, with their tank and their healers etc, and they down Horoth, loot quickly and GT out before you or anyone else can show back up in force.

    This is perfectly legit in a real PVP game. Contested zones with contested spawns. Second best might as well be last, because there is no legit argument over who gets the kill other than "we won the PVP, its ours".

    The OP wants PVP to be like P&P, but I think he knows not what he asks for. The game doesnt stop because we aint in the gank pit. You attacked a mob and barely won the fight, only to be pwned by someone fully buffed and well prepared? Too bad - thats how it works in a non care bear PVP game. You camped a rare timed spawn for 6 hours only to have a power build come in and gank you, kill the spawn, take its loot, and vanish? Perfectly legit. You down the DQ and the torc drops. Just as youre looting you notice you cant move. Oh wait, did you get flesh to stoned? Is that some third party wizard running off with the torc? The response to your bawling in your petition will be be a scripted sentence that explains that spawns and loot in contested zones are just that, contested. You lost the PVP, you lost the loot. Too bad. Thats how it works in P&P bud. 60 completions what? /cry.

    The fact that you jump into a gank pit with your powerbuild doesnt make you less care bear than the rest of the players. In P&P you cant stop being on your guard simply because youre not queued up for CTF. The minute you are in a compromised position with little to no defenses intact is when those of questionable alignment will take advantage of you. You think people harp that slayer arrows and song of capering need a nerf now? You hear that stun is a cheap tactic at least twice a week in general chat? If this game was a tried and true PVP game, those class abilities would be another day at the office.

    You think people moan about how this is too much of a grind game alot? The minute you DID pull something youd be killed for the loot before you had time to grab it. Care bears? You have no idea what youre asking for. If I was your DM, youd find out soon enough.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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