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  1. #1
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    Default pally or fvs dil?

    im building a pure sorc but im unsure which Dilettante to go for. Fvs gives me critical heal wands and raise scrolls, pally gives me cure serious wands, and the up to +5 to all saves bonus. im unsure which to go for, any advice?

  2. #2
    Community Member zeonardo's Avatar
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    Warforged dilettante:
    - not just a decent face, but a badax one
    - immunities, since you won't be a wiz-pm
    - the self-repairs
    - you lose 1 INT

    Jokes aside:

    If it's your first life on this toon, I would recommend warforged.
    You won't have the BtC gears to rely on and being WF will make your life a whole lot easier.

    Diles are fun, but you will only notice the diference later on, when cure pots wont suffice. Turns out that by then you will have enough UMD (considering you're investing on it) to do whatever the dile would allow you to do with divine casting. In this case, I think paladin has more to offer with the saves. (Fvs gets Heal spell by level 12, and your dile will consider you up to lvl10 fvs, so you will still have a fail chance on that. UMD on the other hand, can go over the 40 needed.)

    If you're going the UMD route, wich I strongly suggest since you will have a hi CHA, then maybe you would be better off as a human for the extra feat. You will be fine with cure pots untill you have a 60% heal scroll.

    But I'd still recommend WF. Hands down.
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    i would agree with you but i have a wf wiz archmage, and a 20 wf artificer, so want to go with another race instead of having an army of wf. i wasnt planning on going umd even with high cha i wont be rocking high enough umd to heal scroll on a 85% (need to roll 4+ to pass the caster lvl check) i will be starting at 7, so critical wands for healing will be awesome, i dunno i just like the idea of helf more, and bought helf+horc today so kinda wanna make a helf

  4. #4
    Community Member chance2000's Avatar
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    Wink Fvs Soul

    I run with a buddy that has tr'd his sorc many times.
    He took Fvs, wand whipping and scroll healing can save a party from a wipe.
    I do say caution, it can be costly.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I would suggest the FvS Dilettante until you have the UMD to manage self healing (Gear, Charisma Bonus, UMD ranks)

    Once you've reached that level switch to Paladin for the save bonus, or another option would be to take the Barbarian Dilettante to gain access to Class based Toughness enhancements (assumes you started with a constitution high enough to qualify and included toughness as a feat)

  6. #6
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Cure critical wounds wands are not available from vendors, and even if they were they won't be enough to keep you alive. It's really Heal scrolls or bust, so go FvS (or WF, as others suggest). Whatever% of a Heal scroll is much, much, much better than 100% of a CSW wand.

  7. #7
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    If your goal is to get decent access to in combat healing on a sorcerer then Warforged is a better option than FvS Dilletante, in my opinion, which means I'd recommend going for dilletante Paladin instead. Yeah, you won't have the same level of in-combat healing, but those levels of saving throws on a sorcerer are a much more unusual benefit and you'll have no trouble fixing yourself up between fights.

  8. #8
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Helf is viable enough. Pretty much like a human except the loss of a feat. I'd suppose once you got umd high enough you could switch out to barb dili for extra hp to.

    So favored first then either pally for saves (Not that id help to much) or barb for hp and con.

    WF is easier, makes you more self reliable. I still don't think I could bring myself to use my pool for self heals. I'd prolly still be whippn recon scrolls lol.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Firstly, the chorus of GO WARFORGED when the question is about a half-elf sorcerer that wants help choosing his dilettante is unwarranted. Helf sorcerers are FAR from unviable. Easier to level than a human, even.

    Answering the question actually asked by the OP:

    When you get to cap, get a +cha skills shroud item, a +3/+5 UMD item and exceptional charisma, chances are you'll be able to scroll-heal yourself with UMD and still have a 90% or higher chance, making FvS dilly obsolete. When you get to that point, paladin dilettante will be better due to the +5/+5/+5 saves.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Firstly, the chorus of GO WARFORGED when the question is about a half-elf sorcerer that wants help choosing his dilettante is unwarranted. Helf sorcerers are FAR from unviable. Easier to level than a human, even.
    When the OP asks about dilettantes in the context of healing, mentioning warforged is absolutely warranted.

    In a broader sense, if the OP had asked "which stat should I focus on, Strength or Intelligence?", the correct answer is "neither: Charisma".

  11. #11
    Community Member PadrePio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdsthom View Post
    i would agree with you but i have a wf wiz archmage, and a 20 wf artificer, so want to go with another race instead of having an army of wf.
    Warforged army for the win
    jokes aside, i recently capped my first toon whio is a human sorc .. Took a LR to un-nerf him a bit, but still the thing I regret most is the lack of self healing (scrolls are useful, but let's face it, it is not a quickened repair).
    Last edited by PadrePio; 06-04-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    When the OP asks about dilettantes in the context of healing, mentioning warforged is absolutely warranted.
    No, it really isn't.

    If he had asked which race to be a sorcerer as, it would have been appropriate, but that was not the question he asked.

    Instead, you are deciding for him what question he asked, and this is wrong.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  13. #13
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Not at all, as my analogy demonstrated. It could very well be a false dichotomy. It is usually used consciously, but it is possible to be used unconsciously. I have neither reason to believe nor reason to disbelieve that the OP is aware of the distinctions between WF self-healing and UMD self-healing, it's a known unknown.

    Let's get down to it: if someone asked you whether they should make a Str sorc or an Int sorc, what would you answer?

  14. #14
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Let's get down to it: if someone asked you whether they should make a Str sorc or an Int sorc, what would you answer?
    Your analogy does not compare to this situation.

    You have two unusable builds and are trying to illustrate forcing someone to make a third choice.

    On the other hand, half-elf sorcerers with FVS dilly are extremely viable and capable of self-healing. Half-Elf sorcerers with Paladin dilly have far better saves than WF sorcerers do, and some limited self-healing, too, but can achieve enough UMD to get the same self-healing anyways.

    The choices are usable. The choices you are trying to "trap" me with are not.

    Believe it or not, Warforged is not the best race for Sorcerer. It is an alternative race. If you want Warforged to be the best race for something, look into Artificer.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  15. #15
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Your analogy does not compare to this situation.

    You have two unusable builds and are trying to illustrate forcing someone to make a third choice.
    There are two things incorrect about this sentence, and both of them are all of it.
    1. A Str-based Sorc is not literally unusable. It is inferior in every way to a Cha-based Sorc, but it is not unusable.
    2. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. We're only making suggestions, or at least I am.

    Consider my language: It could be a false dichotomy, it's unknown, in the context... conditional, specific. Your language has to be the way it is because unless I am stomping around forcing people to make warforged sorcerers like an unusually detail-oriented tyrannosaur, your position makes no sense. It would be better if you would just agree that I was right in the very narrow sense that I explicitly couched my comments in rather than trying to describe me in these crazy broad senses.

  16. #16
    Community Member Such755's Avatar
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    hElf as a sorcerer is a waste.
    You get enough UMD as a human with your charisma to use heal scrolls and all that.
    I would recommend you to strongly consider WF especialy as first life when you won't have all the gear you need.
    Quickened reconstruct is just amazing, the immunities you get are very fun, and you still kick lots of ass in every quest including epics.

  17. #17
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such755 View Post
    hElf as a sorcerer is a waste.
    You get enough UMD as a human with your charisma to use heal scrolls and all that.
    I would recommend you to strongly consider WF especialy as first life when you won't have all the gear you need.
    Quickened reconstruct is just amazing, the immunities you get are very fun, and you still kick lots of ass in every quest including epics.
    You know what's better than Quickened Reconstruct?

    Quickened Heal from an allied player.

    Roll a WF wizard or a WF Artificer if you want to play a Warforged Arcane.

    WF Sorcerer... I wouldn't. 2 less DC than Half Elves, Humans, and Drow hurts.

    In any situation where you need in combat healing, I would still recommend all three over Warforged. Why?

    To make the healer's job easier. You can throw Reconstruct on yourself, sure, but are you going to be putting AP into Repair? If not, then you're honestly better off going fleshie, because the healer will have put AP into boosting his/her healing prowess, and it'll benefit you more.

    In-between battles, fleshies still win out because a heal scroll and they're fine.

    Helf is a solid race for Sorcerer. When you get the UMD you need to no-fail heal scrolls, switch over to Paladin, or any other dilly that you qualify for. The saves are still beneficial, and that's something humans don't get with their bonus feat.

    That being said, it's still VIABLE, but for levelling, your wands and scrolls will do you just fine, and you can save your skill points for actually blasting and occasionally CCing enemies.

    WF are not the best race for Sorcerer. At best, I'd put them as an alternate race.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  18. #18
    Community Member Such755's Avatar
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    You don't really need to waste any AP into repair line, maybe one. 225 for one repair is enough, most of the time it's almost half your HP.
    2 DCs are NOTHING unless you really want to buff your CC or instakill ability, in that case you'll need more spell pen due to lack of featas, in that case you'll take wizard past life, which will give you +1 to all DCs. So yeah. Not so bad.

    If you don't plan on WF go human for the extra very-important-feat. You can live just as well without the diletantte.

    Oh and are you serious about having others to heal you? I mean come, really? Better??? REALLY?

  19. #19
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such755 View Post
    Oh and are you serious about having others to heal you? I mean come, really? Better??? REALLY?
    Believe it or not, you will occasionally party with clerics, favored souls, and bards.

    If you are a WF, Clerics will be hesitant to heal you, Favored Souls might toss a heal your way, and bards will probably just leave you alone. And you will always, in a good party, be expected to top yourself off between battles rather than relying on any of these.

    Sure, you can heal yourself, and you can heal yourself pretty well as a WF. But you can do so as a Half Elf as well. And for topping yourself off, Helves and WF can do just fine, considering they'll both be wanding or scrolling themselves up, if they're smart.

    You see, yes, Human can get the UMD to use wands. But a Half Elf can heal themselves from level 1, whereas a Human will have to wait until later, and cure potions can get a bit expensive for a first life character with no additional funding.

    Half Elf can also get Paladin dilly, which grants you a significant bonus to saves based on your Charisma. That's something neither Human nor Warforged can get.

    As far as "2 DC being nothing..." At end game, sure, you will be expecting the wizards to do all the CCing. But what about before then? You don't start the game at level 20. Tossing down a Web can be very useful, and at low levels, 1 or 2 DC can make the difference.

    Again, if you want to play a WF caster, go Wizard or Artificer, where your stat bonuses DON'T cause a penalty. I will agree that a WF Wizard is great and a first choice. A WF Sorcerer though? Nope. Better save that for a second life

    Half Elf will do fine with self-healing, and can switch to Paladin dilly when UMD gets high enough to make FVS dilly redundant.
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  20. #20
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    I started with paladin dilettante with the plan to swap to favoured soul dilettante.

    Low levels you only need cure serious wands combined with improved recovery and wand and scroll mastery. Combined with displacement (scrolls) and stoneskin (wands) you can cruise through the level quite well.

    You might find that if you max out UMD on a sorcerer that by the time that cure serious wands aren't enough you can already upgrade to cure critical wands and possibly heal scrolls.

    You should absolutely take and max out UMD on any sorcerer.

    Some possibilities:
    31 UMD (enough for cure critical wands): 8 base (level 13)+11 charisma (18 base+3 levels+3 enhancements+2 tome+6 item)+3 cartouche+1 big top+1 good luck+4 GH (scroll)+1 charisma ship buff+2 versatility: skills
    39 UMD (enough for heal scrolls (10 base (level 17)+12 charisma (18 base+4 levels+4 enhancements+2 tome+6 item)+3 cartouche+1 big top+2 good luck (cannith crafted)+4 GH (scroll)+1 charisma ship buff+3 exceptional charisma skills (dragontouched eldritch rune)+2 versatility: skills)

    Possible to have all of this on a first life, twinked character while leveling up. At cap it's a cake walk to get there and on a TR you can benefit from a charisma skills GS item. If you're missing 1 or 2 points you can invest more into versatility: skills (it's short term but that's all that's needed, for long term healing just use the best wand you can get 100% on).

    Often you won't even need to use versatility as a friendly bard (competence song) or light monk (walk of the sun) will be around to help you out.

    Paladin dilettante is awesome and with a decent resistance item (or nightshield) and a cannith crafted enhancement vs enchantments item you'll almost never fail a saving throw, totally worth avoiding warforged for in combinationn with significantly higher DCs (sorcerer build in my sig shows my experience getting a first life sorcerer to the stage of being able to CC/solo arcane most end game epics).
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
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