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  1. #41
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Human would be able to have Greater Spell Focus Necro or a Spell Pen Feat.

    Human would be able to dump INT to an 8 (due to the bonus Skill point thing) and still have the same skill points as your drow build.

    I am not sure if you planned on using wraps without the TWF feats...

    The Human Clonk would have healing amp which would make you Tier 2 Healing Aura hit way better and allow for better Torc-age.

    You mention the drow tempest PRE...you may have a hard time fitting in all those feats to qualify for Tempest (unless they change those).
    All true, and humans can choose pump up their wisdom with human adaptability while drow are limited to dex. Yes the base build lacks TWF feats, but I mention them under variants. It's a melee capable caster build, not a melee build. Perhaps replace spell pen - it's always a compromise. I can't speculate about Tempest.

    My main point was drow can be viable even as it now, although you're right about 32pt humans being more powerful. The difference is not so significant however, and Drow chicks are still hotter.
    Last edited by stoerm; 05-30-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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  2. #42
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    if you actually invest in those stats sufficiently, they become the equivalent of more than 32 points.
    Important part bold in the quote above.

    If you build a character that somehow focuses on one of the three stats and do not make the mistake of ignoring CON -- which is the only penalized stat -- you can get some (potentially) powerful builds. If those were made with 32 build points they would be much more powerful.

    As it is, the most common builds are wizards or sorcerers and they can be matched or surpassed by human and half-elf builds that have the right combination of gear and enhancements.

    The choice then comes down to preferences resulting from racial differences and, typically, constitution. Some players put a great deal of value on the 2 point difference in CON. And, again depending on gear and enhancements, this could be higher.

    Drow is easy to unlock and provides a very good option for first life characters in certain builds. Usually the human and half-elf builds that equal or surpass drow rely on the 32 build points. And, not everyone finds that so easy to unlock (although throwing money at it makes the problem disappear).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Drizzt Do'Urden

    Don't tell me you didn't see that coming
    I'll laugh at them all when they'll choose Dex based(woohoo +6d6 SA) Tempest/SinIII drow rogue as MotU will release.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    This is my point.

    Drow vs Human

    Drow get really bad enhancements.
    *Those Rapier enhancements would be great...
    except
    *Khopesh user>Rapier user with maxed AP put into it
    That Human that just put its bonus feat into Khopesh now out-DPS's the maxed AP Drow Rapier user (and you save 12 AP)

    Human get healing amp. Healing amp and HP are the 2 most important things when it comes to survivability. Drow suffer in both of those. Yes you can build around it...but if you put the same work/gear into a Human (insert class here)...the Human would be better.
    Haha, +20 HP on human(max +30 with -3 AP). Healing amp... Are you mad? Healing amp is nothing for ~450 HP character(if you massheal is less than 450 HP then you are not cleric). It is awesome for barbs with 800+ and SD/DoS. So stop talking. People talking about Torc here. I don't have it. I prefer to not get hit at all(mostly) and save my life. My characters don't have epic Scorpion to ignore most of arrow damage. Yes, torcing works fine, but it is problem to get it(people want to get 2 torcs even somebody in raid doesn't have one, IT IS NOT FAIR).

  5. #45
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    Haha, +20 HP on human(max +30 with -3 AP). Healing amp... Are you mad? Healing amp is nothing for ~450 HP character(if you massheal is less than 450 HP then you are not cleric). It is awesome for barbs with 800+ and SD/DoS. So stop talking. People talking about Torc here. I don't have it. I prefer to not get hit at all(mostly) and save my life. My characters don't have epic Scorpion to ignore most of arrow damage. Yes, torcing works fine, but it is problem to get it(people want to get 2 torcs even somebody in raid doesn't have one, IT IS NOT FAIR).
    Edit...

    Original post was a little caustic.

    Ok here is a watered down version...

    I do not value anyone's opinion who thinks healing amp is over-rated.

    I do not value anyone's opinion who comments about torcs...and they don't have one.

    I do not value anyone's opinion who thinks they do not need HP or Healing amp due to the: "I don't get hit" argument.
    Last edited by Bacab; 05-31-2012 at 02:03 AM.
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  6. #46
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    just one little thing plural of drow is drow
    But wait...shouldn't singular be Drew then

    Scratt for president!!!!

  7. #47
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Drizzt Do'Urden

    Don't tell me you didn't see that coming
    Mary Sue is not a build, no matter how many times you see it.
    Just sayin'.
    Don't tell me, tell the incoming horde that wants to be cool.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Don't tell me, tell the incoming horde that wants to be cool.
    Elves (and equivalent ... e.g. Chiss in SWTOR) have always been popular.
    All I run are elves, for instance.
    /shrug

  9. #49
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people play what they wanna play at first and have fun....then they get caught up in the "you have to do it this way or else" club and they completely lose sight of that.

    If your a good player...any class/race combo will work......and I do mean ANY.

    Scratt for president!!!!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus451 View Post
    and the lack of decent racial enhancements can actually be an ASSET, making room for more class-based enhancements
    That's like saying "It's a good thing I didn't get a raise at work, or I'd have to pay more taxes"

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=stoerm;4488953]I'll bite, all in good fun of course. A wis/dex based clonk. This is an alternative to the Font of Healing, which is IMHO a bit too focused on casting at the cost of soloability.

    Dark Light - Drow 19 cleric / 1 monk

    Stats: str 10, dex 16, con 12, int 10, wis 16, cha 14
    All level ups in wisdom.
    Feats: Toughness, Weapon Finesse (monk bonus), Empower Healing, Heighten, Maximize, Quicken, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Spell Penetration
    Skills: Concentration, balance, UMD, jump as your int tome supply permits.

    I'm sorry, but that build is pretty bad.
    What and why are you finessing? Rapiers? Not using handwraps?
    Human would get you stunning fist or even save you all charisma build points if you take extra turning.
    Human would be able to drop int to 8 and keep the same skills.
    More build points in str at the cost of charisma, int, 15 dex could save you weapon finesse.
    Human or Halfling would probably be a better choice.
    Charisma could be dumped anyway.
    There are a lot more items to be fixed here.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirbornedChild View Post
    Haha, +20 HP on human(max +30 with -3 AP). Healing amp... Are you mad? Healing amp is nothing for ~450 HP character(if you massheal is less than 450 HP then you are not cleric). It is awesome for barbs with 800+ and SD/DoS. So stop talking. People talking about Torc here. I don't have it. I prefer to not get hit at all(mostly) and save my life. My characters don't have epic Scorpion to ignore most of arrow damage. Yes, torcing works fine, but it is problem to get it(people want to get 2 torcs even somebody in raid doesn't have one, IT IS NOT FAIR).
    You're obviously looking at healing amp wrong. Healing amp isn't just for empowered maximized mass heals for 4000. Healing amp can be incredibly powerful for small heals, especially ones that occur constantly like...
    Radiant Servant aura.
    Monk healing.
    Vampirism.
    Curse of healing.
    Topping off via wands or potions.

    Consider a regular heal scroll. Now add in 10% human amp, 10% monk app and one piece of amp from gear (20-25%). You're talking about 45% -51% more healing.

  13. #53
    Community Member brickwall's Avatar
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    I would not question the strength of the race it self as it has just as many stat points total as every other race. I would question the user at the controls it is what you make it each race has its quirks, all in how you as a player handle it.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Drizzt Do'Urden

    Don't tell me you didn't see that coming
    He's such a gimp.
    I've killed him twice in BG1 and BG2 easily.

    He should TR into dwarf or 1/2 orc.

  15. #55
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    This is my point.

    Drow vs Human

    Drow get really bad enhancements.
    *Those Rapier enhancements would be great...
    except
    *Khopesh user>Rapier user with maxed AP put into it
    That Human that just put its bonus feat into Khopesh now out-DPS's the maxed AP Drow Rapier user (and you save 12 AP)
    This can be stated about any other generic weapon type in the game. Khopesh is just broken. The decision to make it x3 crit was made when 32 str fighter was considered a good maxed out build. The difference between khopesh and rapier/scimitar back then wasnt as huge. In the current game of 70+ sustainable str with 12+ seeker, khopesh moves much further away from all other generic weapon types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Human get healing amp. Healing amp and HP are the 2 most important things when it comes to survivability. Drow suffer in both of those. Yes you can build around it...but if you put the same work/gear into a Human (insert class here)...the Human would be better.
    This is why drow are a worse racial choice. All of their enhancements dont have a high impact.

    If +2 to hit meant something drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If finesse builds were a viable option drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If higher dex meant anything at all drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If +2 to spot and search actually had an impact, drow would be a more attractive choice.

    The underinflated impact of stats like these doesnt compare to the overinflated impact of other racial characteristics. Whats more powerful, a WF or drow sorc? High con and self heals -vs- 4 points of cha? Knowing how this game plays, its a no brainer.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #56
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    But wait...shouldn't singular be Drew then
    One would think so

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  17. #57
    Community Member Sirgleno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This can be stated about any other generic weapon type in the game. Khopesh is just broken. The decision to make it x3 crit was made when 32 str fighter was considered a good maxed out build. The difference between khopesh and rapier/scimitar back then wasnt as huge. In the current game of 70+ sustainable str with 12+ seeker, khopesh moves much further away from all other generic weapon types.



    This is why drow are a worse racial choice. All of their enhancements dont have a high impact.

    If +2 to hit meant something drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If finesse builds were a viable option drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If higher dex meant anything at all drow would be a more attractive choice.
    If +2 to spot and search actually had an impact, drow would be a more attractive choice.

    The underinflated impact of stats like these doesnt compare to the overinflated impact of other racial characteristics. Whats more powerful, a WF or drow sorc? High con and self heals -vs- 4 points of cha? Knowing how this game plays, its a no brainer.
    So Drow aren't good, love the implied concession to many of your earlier points. Give em the same build points as everyone else (per the OP, and my unresponded to comment in a similar thread) and... /endscene
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  18. #58
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    Drow get the most mileage out of their stat trade-offs if they can leverage all of the bonuses: so they get the best deal on characters that have a lot of use for Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma.

    Assassin is the choice that I think gets the most out of having all three of those stats at high levels: You can achieve 16 Dex, 16 Int, 16 Charisma and get your Con up to 12 for 24 build points, which a race with no modifiers can't do without spending 34. Assassin also benefits nicely from the racial Search and Spot bonuses, and the extra ability with rapiers and/or shortswords.

    The problem is that you can't get Con any higher without going into accelerated cost territory, and Rogues have a low enough base hit die as it stands.

    That's the character type for which I think drow is the most attractive. The other things I think it does quite well are Paladin and Bard on a 28-point first life, because it eases the intense stat pressure a little bit.

  19. #59
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgleno View Post
    So Drow aren't good, love the implied concession to many of your earlier points. Give em the same build points as everyone else (per the OP, and my unresponded to comment in a similar thread) and... /endscene
    Giving drow 4 more build points would not fix them.

    They would still suck.

    Drow*NEED* new enhancements basically.

    Atleast, that is how most of the community on the forums sees it (it seems).
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  20. #60
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Giving drow 4 more build points would not fix them.

    They would still suck.

    Drow*NEED* new enhancements basically.

    Atleast, that is how most of the community on the forums sees it (it seems).
    Yea, best post in this thread was the one that was something like

    "Sometimes having no racial enhancements is a good thing, so you can use those points for class enhancements"

    heh. right.

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