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  1. #21
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Drow are good because you can surprise others positively by not being completely useless.

    I rolled one also because the chicks are sexy. Mmmmm. I only dislike the elven knees-to-the-chin gait.
    Last edited by stoerm; 05-30-2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason: minor clarification
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Currently, drow are pretty much the worse race for everything if you have have 32 point build unlocked.

    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.

    If they changed it where Drow could up their INT, DEX or CHR...that would indeed go a long way into "fixing" them.
    Well they do make pretty decent PM's I would rather be a drow than a WF when I was a pm but only after lvl 18 as the ride there would be easier as a wf

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Common misconception. Save yourself the AP...and go with Human's favored weapon...the Khopesh.

    Khopesh>Drow with Rapiers and investing a ton of AP

    BTW on a PLD...AP are super tight. The AP you used on Short sword/Rapier could have bought you Human Healing Amp or that damage clicky.

    EDIT>this assumes you have 32 point build.

    There is a reason that Drow are considered a "Beginner" race.
    you skipped his mentioning of a PM though and I agree human would be better for the paladin

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vVvAiaynAvVv View Post
    Drow is only 400pt to unlock tho...32 point is 1750.......I have a feeling if they "fixed" Drow it would become much more expensive or higher favor to unlock.

    I think one of the issues now with INT and CHA not being available from enhancements is so many people feel casters are overpowered now as it is......opening this enhancement line up would add 1 DC to wizards, sorcs, and bards as a lot of people would start making them drows....a lot of people already do actually because you can start with a 20.

    I still won't give up my Drow PM...even tho human would get me an extra feat.
    just one little thing plural of drow is drow

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  5. #25
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupTyr View Post
    You don't really save 6 (six) AP 'cause you don't *have* to take Human Greater Adaptability. You only save 2 (two) AP. Also you loose the human bonus feat. Sorcs don't get that many feats, do they?
    no, you save 6 AP because you're not taking sorcerer charisma III. adaptability has nothing to do with it. unless of course your plan is to have neither adaptability nor charisma III, in which case the drow is 1 point of DC higher.

  6. #26
    2016 DDO Players Council kinggartk's Avatar
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    One issue I have with the Drow hate is that because they are not the "BEST" racial choice for any build (Not necessarily my opinion....but I digress), they must be gimp. This is far from fact however. True, a Drow Barbarian might be rightfully considered gimp in some peoples eyes, a Drow Fighter might be a very poor choice.

    Just because a Drow Pally might not be as optimum as a Pally human, doesn't make them gimp. They can be plenty effective. You might think a WF Wizard or Sorc would be a better choice than a Drow Wiz or Sorc (You may or may not be right), but you can't say a Drow Wiz or Sorc is Gimp. In fact you must acknowledge that a properly built Drow Sorc or Wiz would be extremely powerful (BEST???? Maybe...Maybe not)

    A drow might be the second best choice for many different builds out there, but second best might still be pretty good. I personally don't like playing WF....they have some great inherent strengths that make them a great choice for most builds, but they are just too clunky for my taste...so, I will be happy with my second best option, Drow...is still a good option for may different builds, just maybe not the BEST.

    Just to summarize....less than "BEST" does not = GIMP.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    This again comes down to the player and not the race chosen.

    Optimizers have a hard time getting over the -2 con hump. Too bad for them.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #28
    Community Member Wildseed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    snip*
    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    My Batwoman I have tried to beat
    Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
    (15 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 274
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 16
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 8
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             13                    19
    Dexterity            16                    18
    Constitution         13                    14
    Intelligence         17                    18
    Wisdom                8                    10
    Charisma             11                    13
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
    
    
    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    My build, I made it a while ago, yes there are better builds, but they are not as good as she is for what she does, for the longest time she was my rogue, till artificer came out anyway. She was able to do every trap in game except "THAT" one and she was great at it, and I didn't feel squishy sitting at 499 hp with hp item from shroud and 6 con/grtr false life, she's pretty good, and I tried to adapt the build to a dwarf once, didn't work, and the skills suffer minutely with less int, because as it was it was hard to keep her DD,Search spot and OL, and no I didn't max OL, I threw a couple pts into spot, and a couple into OL
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  9. #29
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinggartk View Post
    One issue I have with the Drow hate is that because they are not the "BEST" racial choice for any build (Not necessarily my opinion....but I digress), they must be gimp. This is far from fact however. True, a Drow Barbarian might be rightfully considered gimp in some peoples eyes, a Drow Fighter might be a very poor choice.
    Drow get -2 to Con - Hardly a massive problem on a Fighter or Barb

    They get no penalty to Str however.

    They also get a higher Base Cha - Intimidate, Dex - AC and Reflex saves, Int - Skills.

    Easy enough now to leave Int at 10, If you're not optimising for AC you can leave Dex at 10 too.

    This allows you to max out your STR and get a decent CON {you don't need 18-20 base con!}.

    You won't be the best Fighter or Barb around of course BUT you most certainly won't be gimped.

    EDIT: Just checked and:

    Elf - 18, 10, 14, 10, 8, 12
    Drow - 18, 10, 14, 10, 8, 12
    WF - 18, 10, 14, 10, 8, 12

    Exactly the same base stats for a DPS Fighter

    If you want CE you will of course have to swap Int and Cha around and maybe take a small penalty to STR for a higher Dex.
    Last edited by FranOhmsford; 05-30-2012 at 04:53 PM.

  10. #30
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.
    I'll bite, all in good fun of course. A wis/dex based clonk. This is an alternative to the Font of Healing, which is IMHO a bit too focused on casting at the cost of soloability.

    Dark Light - Drow 19 cleric / 1 monk

    Stats: str 10, dex 16, con 12, int 10, wis 16, cha 14
    All level ups in wisdom.
    Feats: Toughness, Weapon Finesse (monk bonus), Empower Healing, Heighten, Maximize, Quicken, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Spell Penetration
    Skills: Concentration, balance, UMD, jump as your int tome supply permits.

    Playstyle: "Neither a nanny nor a battle cleric be. You are The Cleric."

    When the group requires it, assume the healer/CC/instakill role. Go water stance carrying crafted power/greater spell focus kamas. For extra survivability craft parrying and protection items, and use spells such as Shield of Faith and Recitation, and the defensive stance to get viable AC. In melee/solo mode go wind stance and use wraps (or perhaps rapiers) with the healing aura ticking, using Divine Power and Divine Might to boost your damage.

    Variants: 2 levels of monk for evasion and extra feat (stunning fist or extra toughness), or 3 levels for finishing moves and 10% healing amp. This will kill your offensive spell DCs, however, so it's a tradeoff. In this scenario replace spell penetration and focus feats with melee feats such as TWF. Another option is to go fire instead of wind, with 16 str, 10 dex, 12 cha. This can be especially worthwhile if you only take one monk level and forgo evasion, as then you don't need to spend a feat on weapon finesse, so you can get Extend or Spell Focus: Enchantment.

    Is this a viable build? I think so, even though it's very ambitious (healing, offensive casting and some melee!) Would a human be better? Arguably a 32pt human is better, considering for example the healing amp, but not necessarily by a huge margin. I'd say it's better than a 28pt human or 32pt warforged. A comparable WF would probably be the Soul Survivor anyway, not a clonk. Also maybe, just maybe, the future Drow tempest PRE will make this build even better.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildseed View Post
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    My build, I made it a while ago, yes there are better builds, but they are not as good as she is for what she does, for the longest time she was my rogue, till artificer came out anyway. She was able to do every trap in game except "THAT" one and she was great at it, and I didn't feel squishy sitting at 499 hp with hp item from shroud and 6 con/grtr false life, she's pretty good, and I tried to adapt the build to a dwarf once, didn't work, and the skills suffer minutely with less int, because as it was it was hard to keep her DD,Search spot and OL, and no I didn't max OL, I threw a couple pts into spot, and a couple into OL
    A human would have more skill points and healing amp and an Extra Feat. That Extra feat means you could take less fighter levels and more ROG leves...thus making skill points easier. Healing Amp is what made the Batman build tougher to kill.

    Human with exact same level split would just have better AP.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Memek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Optimizers have a hard time getting over the -2 con hump. Too bad for them.
    No, Rabbit hate isnt because of the -2 CON (as it often claimed). Their -2 CON isnt much in the grand scheme of things.

    The reason is their rubbish enhancements.

    Enhancements are the main source of power for the different races. Heck, enhancements are the main source of power for BUILDS. This is where a character draws its power from.

    When the enhancements align, ie an Elf PM, noone complains (of course, Human ALWAYS has a strong point against it with the bonus feat).
    In the other cases you are simply stuck with Rabbit-Men with Rabbit-enhancements.

    Drow? Rabbit-smurfs? Enhancements are FAR more important than stats, and Drow have the worst enhancements of all races. Their stats are good, yes, and you can make a point for them in INT or CHA based classes but that is all, and even there the Human enhancements + feat typically beats them handily.

    Nothing to do with the -2 CON. Rabbit hate is because of Rabbit enhancements.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    I'll bite, all in good fun of course. A wis/dex based clonk. This is an alternative to the Font of Healing, which is IMHO a bit too focused on casting at the cost of soloability.

    Dark Light - Drow 19 cleric / 1 monk

    Stats: str 10, dex 16, con 12, int 10, wis 16, cha 14
    All level ups in wisdom.
    Feats: Toughness, Weapon Finesse (monk bonus), Empower Healing, Heighten, Maximize, Quicken, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Spell Penetration
    Skills: Concentration, balance, UMD, jump as your int tome supply permits.

    Playstyle: "Neither a nanny nor a battle cleric be. You are The Cleric."

    When the group requires it, assume the healer/CC/instakill role. Go water stance carrying crafted power/greater spell focus kamas. For extra survivability craft parrying and protection items, and use spells such as Shield of Faith and Recitation, and the defensive stance to get viable AC. In melee/solo mode go wind stance and use wraps (or perhaps rapiers) with the healing aura ticking, using Divine Power and Divine Might to boost your damage.

    Variants: 2 levels of monk for evasion and extra feat (stunning fist or extra toughness), or 3 levels for finishing moves and 10% healing amp. This will kill your offensive spell DCs, however, so it's a tradeoff. In this scenario replace spell penetration and focus feats with melee feats such as TWF. Another option is to go fire instead of wind, with 16 str, 10 dex, 12 cha. This can be especially worthwhile if you only take one monk level and forgo evasion, as then you don't need to spend a feat on weapon finesse, so you can get Extend or Spell Focus: Enchantment.

    Is this a viable build? I think so, even though it's very ambitious (healing, offensive casting and some melee!) Would a human be better? Arguably a 32pt human is better, considering for example the healing amp, but not necessarily by a huge margin. I'd say it's better than a 28pt human or 32pt warforged. A comparable WF would probably be the Soul Survivor anyway, not a clonk. Also maybe, just maybe, the future Drow tempest PRE will make this build even better.
    Human would be able to have Greater Spell Focus Necro or a Spell Pen Feat.

    Human would be able to dump INT to an 8 (due to the bonus Skill point thing) and still have the same skill points as your drow build.

    I am not sure if you planned on using wraps without the TWF feats...

    The Human Clonk would have healing amp which would make you Tier 2 Healing Aura hit way better and allow for better Torc-age.

    You mention the drow tempest PRE...you may have a hard time fitting in all those feats to qualify for Tempest (unless they change those).
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  14. #34
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memek View Post
    No, Rabbit hate isnt because of the -2 CON (as it often claimed). Their -2 CON isnt much in the grand scheme of things.

    The reason is their rubbish enhancements.

    Enhancements are the main source of power for the different races. Heck, enhancements are the main source of power for BUILDS. This is where a character draws its power from.

    When the enhancements align, ie an Elf PM, noone complains (of course, Human ALWAYS has a strong point against it with the bonus feat).
    In the other cases you are simply stuck with Rabbit-Men with Rabbit-enhancements.

    Drow? Rabbit-smurfs? Enhancements are FAR more important than stats, and Drow have the worst enhancements of all races. Their stats are good, yes, and you can make a point for them in INT or CHA based classes but that is all, and even there the Human enhancements + feat typically beats them handily.

    Nothing to do with the -2 CON. Rabbit hate is because of Rabbit enhancements.
    This is my point.

    Drow vs Human

    Drow get really bad enhancements.
    *Those Rapier enhancements would be great...
    except
    *Khopesh user>Rapier user with maxed AP put into it
    That Human that just put its bonus feat into Khopesh now out-DPS's the maxed AP Drow Rapier user (and you save 12 AP)

    Human get healing amp. Healing amp and HP are the 2 most important things when it comes to survivability. Drow suffer in both of those. Yes you can build around it...but if you put the same work/gear into a Human (insert class here)...the Human would be better.
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  15. #35
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    BTW this is not an attack on "Drow" users.

    I am just trying to point out that they (the Devs) need to bring Drow up a little bit.

    Drow do make good Arty's because you generally want IPS...
    But I prefer the easy self-healing of a WF at this point.
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    Atropine Human 11 WIZ/1ROG (Active)
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  16. #36
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    I have been considering TR'ing into a drow - wiz (PM) - currently the toon I am looking at has 2 x sorc past lives, and 1 x wiz.

    Would this be good enough to be viable in epic content ? (generally, without posting pages of stats) .

    The reason I want to roll a drow ? - I just like them, regardless of their shortcomings I like the history side of the race, I've played the "master race" (WF) and it is fun and all, but I think sometimes having a little "gimpness" isn't such a bad thing.

    And the movement speed of the WF drives me insane. it's like being in slow motion sometimes, and If i'm harried or anything ....... arrrgh, not sure if this is specific to the WF, but I don't remember being so "slow" when I was human sorc / elf sorc, playing with monks i'm half way and they are already there even with haste.

  17. #37
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    I have been considering TR'ing into a drow - wiz (PM) - currently the toon I am looking at has 2 x sorc past lives, and 1 x wiz.

    Would this be good enough to be viable in epic content ? (generally, without posting pages of stats) .

    The reason I want to roll a drow ? - I just like them, regardless of their shortcomings I like the history side of the race, I've played the "master race" (WF) and it is fun and all, but I think sometimes having a little "gimpness" isn't such a bad thing.

    And the movement speed of the WF drives me insane. it's like being in slow motion sometimes, and If i'm harried or anything ....... arrrgh, not sure if this is specific to the WF, but I don't remember being so "slow" when I was human sorc / elf sorc, playing with monks i'm half way and they are already there even with haste.
    Drow SORC is fine man. It is...and always has been Player behind the keyboard>the race/class/gear

    That is why DDO>every other MMO

    DDO is not a buncha gear checks. Its mainly skill based (yes...gear/race/class combos can make things easier).
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  18. #38
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    drow wizard can work fine on a first life even. it's not that they're unplayable. it's just that they're clearly weaker than the alternatives.

    as to WF movement speed, that's an optical illusion. it's caused by the fact that your WF moves at the same speed, but is a ginormous beastly thing towering over everything around it.

    you're moving just as fast, but it looks like less because the distance you move as compared to the size of a WF is not as much.

    try making a halfling some time. they're no faster than anyone else, but they sure feel like it!

    not sure if it's the same thing, but i suspect it's similar to how if you're in a car with a long dashboard, it feels like you're moving slower than in a car with a short dashboard (no really, try it some time).

  19. #39
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Currently, drow are pretty much the worse race for everything if you have have 32 point build unlocked.

    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.

    ...
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Drizzt Do'Urden

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    Just sayin'.

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