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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Are drow really strong enough to warrant lower build points?

    As above, it just seems silly to me that drow get fewer build points due to having +2 to three different stats, especially since they only get enhancements to increase dexterity. But as they are now? No.

    What say you?

  2. #2
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    the way it works out, drow are essentially 32 point builds with some of the points pre-assigned into certain stats.

    if you actually invest in those stats sufficiently, they become the equivalent of more than 32 points.

    the main problem with drow currently is that their enhancements suck. oh sure, a lot of people will rant and rave for hours on end about how -2 dex means that you're going to be instantly killed the second a trash mob even thinks about attacking you, but ultimately it's not a huge deal.

    the real killer is that, for example:

    humans get versatility and adaptability for enhancements. also a bonus feat.
    half-elfs get versatility and adaptability, plus dilettante.
    half-orcs get power attack, THF damage and proc rate increases, and rage increases.
    halflings get sneak attack, save bonuses, and a buff.
    elfs get... well, ok, elfs suck too, unless you really need spell pen. that said, they do at least get spell pen. also access to arcane archer for people who don't have half-elf. also they get scimitars bonuses, which isn't completely terrible.
    dwarves get more armor, tactics DC, and bonuses with axes. also save bonuses.
    warforged... are kind of a corner case. they're great if you can cast repair spells, but otherwise tend to be in a bad situation. that said, they still get better enhancements than drow, it's just that the racial abilities are only worthwhile some of the time, not all of the time.

    and drow... drow get bonuses to shortswords (which very few people use), rapiers (which are much more common than short swords, at least) and shurikens (which almost nobody uses if they can avoid it).

    drow can be worthwhile for some combinations of abilities, but you pretty much have to really want a good stat in at least 2 of dex, int, and cha (all 3 being ideal) or if you particularly want a 20 in one of the mental stats. the most common drow builds are TWF paladins, wizards, sorcerers, artificers, bards and rogues. of these, most are considered to be suboptimal, unless you're comparing to 28 point builds with another race.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    "Play a drow-They're just that cool! Inherent spell resistance, exotic weapon proficiency and improved physical aptitude!"


    Honestly, they are rarely if ever a good choice, let alone the ideal one.

  4. #4
    Community Member ssgcmwatson's Avatar
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    It's been suggested before, and I'll bump the idea here:

    Drow would be much better if you could choose which stat to put enhancement points in (Dex, Cha, or Int).
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgcmwatson View Post
    It's been suggested before, and I'll bump the idea here:

    Drow would be much better if you could choose which stat to put enhancement points in (Dex, Cha, or Int).
    They wouldnt be "better" they would be "fixed".

  6. #6
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    "Play a drow-They're just that cool! Inherent spell resistance, exotic weapon proficiency and improved physical aptitude!"


    Honestly, they are rarely if ever a good choice, let alone the ideal one.
    Where did they get the 'improved physical aptitude' from? lol

    Too bad they don't get any bonuses to TWF; if they did, that statement might approach the realm of accuracy.

  7. #7
    Community Member Asmodeus451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    "Play a drow-They're just that cool! Inherent spell resistance, exotic weapon proficiency and improved physical aptitude!"


    Honestly, they are rarely if ever a good choice, let alone the ideal one.
    that right there is the reason i play Drow.

    When you get right down to it, SR (especially the high SR Drow get) can mitigate as much damage and other negative effects as Evasion (preventing Holds, Curses, insta-kills)

    and the lack of decent racial enhancements can actually be an ASSET, making room for more class-based enhancements
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  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus451 View Post
    that right there is the reason i play Drow.

    When you get right down to it, SR (especially the high SR Drow get) can mitigate as much damage and other negative effects as Evasion (preventing Holds, Curses, insta-kills)

    and the lack of decent racial enhancements can actually be an ASSET, making room for more class-based enhancements
    the SR doesn't work very well in end game, and while i agree that some classes have more than enough enhancements to use up all your AP, the general consensus is that people still don't think they're a good race.

    personally, i have several drow characters. that doesn't mean i think they have a mechanical advantage that outweighs their disadvantages most of the time.

  9. #9
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Currently, drow are pretty much the worse race for everything if you have have 32 point build unlocked.

    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.

    If they changed it where Drow could up their INT, DEX or CHR...that would indeed go a long way into "fixing" them.
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  10. #10
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    If you could put enhancements into int or Cha then drow become hands down new race for wiz/sorc builds with a 1-2 DC advantage over human and 2-3 DC advantage over WF.

    As it is I'll ideally TR into a drow sorc after doing 3 wiz PL's on my sorc and despite being a squishy drow I'll have over 500 HP and 6 extra AP over a human so I don't see that human would be better.

    Drow paladin is a decent choice for a DPS paladin but this was edged out with the change to versatility: damage.

    What it comes down to is that drow is the most accessible "32 point" race available to a f2p/premium account so it is reasonable that it should lag behind somewhat.
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  11. #11
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    If you could put enhancements into int or Cha then drow become hands down new race for wiz/sorc builds with a 1-2 DC advantage over human and 2-3 DC advantage over WF.

    As it is I'll ideally TR into a drow sorc after doing 3 wiz PL's on my sorc and despite being a squishy drow I'll have over 500 HP and 6 extra AP over a human so I don't see that human would be better.

    Drow paladin is a decent choice for a DPS paladin but this was edged out with the change to versatility: damage.

    What it comes down to is that drow is the most accessible "32 point" race available to a f2p/premium account so it is reasonable that it should lag behind somewhat.
    If you are scroll healing yourself, human amp is very nice, as is the +feat.

    If you are a wizard archmage WF is by far and away the best choice.

    If you are a wizard pale, drow isn't a bad choice, but human for extra feat/elf for pen/helf for dillys are probably stronger.

    I really can't find any build that drow is best for...maybe twf pally/rog to utilie the int/cha/dex bump with evasion to minimize the mediocre con? Still see helf/human/horc coming out on top perhaps.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Currently, drow are pretty much the worse race for everything if you have have 32 point build unlocked.
    .
    BUT if you haven't unlocked 32-point build then in some cases they might be a better choice than other races. I personally found that in the gap between unlocking drow and unlocking 32 point build I could build a better drow toon than I could with 28-point builds of other races if those enhanced stats (dex, cha, int) are important for the class I was considering.

  13. #13
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    2wf paladin

    Arguably pm because you can save having to grind a +4 tome to top out INT


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  14. #14
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    If you are scroll healing yourself, human amp is very nice, as is the +feat.

    If you are a wizard archmage WF is by far and away the best choice.

    If you are a wizard pale, drow isn't a bad choice, but human for extra feat/elf for pen/helf for dillys are probably stronger.

    I really can't find any build that drow is best for...maybe twf pally/rog to utilie the int/cha/dex bump with evasion to minimize the mediocre con? Still see helf/human/horc coming out on top perhaps.
    Healing Amp from human is nice but it's too AP intensive to go beyond the first rank (and 10% isn't a big deal).

    The real question for wizard and sorcerer is how important the +1 charisma or intelligence is and for a palemaster it's a big deal, with maximum gear a human or helf palemaster has to choose between the same DCs as a drow OR Boon of Undeath unless you have an Epic Staff of Inner Sight (which is hard to get and locks out other options). For sorcerer it's 6 AP which can go a long way considering how many good options there are for sorcerer (especially if you want to tri-spec spells such as acid/cold/lightning for general raiding+DQ+Abbot).

    The conclusion here is that drow can make a better caster (wizard or sorcerer) depending on gear, past lives and goals (a big one is if you have a +3 tome in your caster stat).
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  15. #15
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    2wf paladin


    .... And that's probably it


    Common misconception. Save yourself the AP...and go with Human's favored weapon...the Khopesh.

    Khopesh>Drow with Rapiers and investing a ton of AP

    BTW on a PLD...AP are super tight. The AP you used on Short sword/Rapier could have bought you Human Healing Amp or that damage clicky.

    EDIT>this assumes you have 32 point build.

    There is a reason that Drow are considered a "Beginner" race.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    As it is I'll ideally TR into a drow sorc after doing 3 wiz PL's on my sorc and despite being a squishy drow I'll have over 500 HP and 6 extra AP over a human so I don't see that human would be better.
    You don't really save 6 (six) AP 'cause you don't *have* to take Human Greater Adaptability. You only save 2 (two) AP. Also you loose the human bonus feat. Sorcs don't get that many feats, do they?

  17. #17
    Community Member voxson5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Common misconception. Save yourself the AP...and go with Human's favored weapon...the Khopesh.

    Khopesh>Drow with Rapiers and investing a ton of AP

    BTW on a PLD...AP are super tight. The AP you used on Short sword/Rapier could have bought you Human Healing Amp or that damage clicky.

    EDIT>this assumes you have 32 point build.

    There is a reason that Drow are considered a "Beginner" race.
    Or just save on the ap, smites and divine sacrifice as you know favour the superior crit range of rapiers.
    In addition, it is far easier to get higher tiers of DM on a drow, but this is far outclassed by the HA damage changes
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  18. #18
    Community Member Claransa's Avatar
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    Throwing my 2 cents in from a different perspective, Drow are best as wizards.

    Drow however are not the best wizards. They're good at it when you unlock them at 400 favor, their just going to be surpassed when you unlock 32 point builds.

    if you have to play a Drow, wizard pale master is your best option.

  19. #19
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Currently, drow are pretty much the worse race for everything if you have have 32 point build unlocked.

    Post a build where you *think* drow is the best race...and I will post one where a Human or a WF would be better.

    If they changed it where Drow could up their INT, DEX or CHR...that would indeed go a long way into "fixing" them.
    Drow is only 400pt to unlock tho...32 point is 1750.......I have a feeling if they "fixed" Drow it would become much more expensive or higher favor to unlock.

    I think one of the issues now with INT and CHA not being available from enhancements is so many people feel casters are overpowered now as it is......opening this enhancement line up would add 1 DC to wizards, sorcs, and bards as a lot of people would start making them drows....a lot of people already do actually because you can start with a 20.

    I still won't give up my Drow PM...even tho human would get me an extra feat.

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  20. #20
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxson5 View Post
    Or just save on the ap, smites and divine sacrifice as you know favour the superior crit range of rapiers.
    In addition, it is far easier to get higher tiers of DM on a drow, but this is far outclassed by the HA damage changes
    Yeah...they kinda went overboard on the HA damage IMHO.

    I have never built for more than DM3 personally. I just always felt you had to give up too much to get it. Then again...I have never pulled a +4 CHR tome.

    I have seriously seen people have a starting 12 STR and/or a 10 CON to "make sure they get DM4". I have never understood that logic.

    Khopesh being ridiculously overpowered really favors human also (I am personally against Khopesh).

    One build that always intrigued me was a PLD20 (weapons of good) dual-wielding Deathnips...and having an Arty cast Silver weapons on them. I really liked the idea of a 17-20/x4 lol.
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