# Thread: Shroud puzzles, no more patterns.

1. ## Shroud puzzles, no more patterns.

So I know, there's a thread about Shroud puzzles like, every other week.
But the solution is usually the same, like: solve down, and then USE THIS CHART.
That's a bother for me, because I hate memorizing charts and stuff. Double so, because if I forget a detail (and that does happen), there's no quick way to fix it, it's either alt-tab to google and quick search, try random buttons or try to figure out the solution (which ends up trying random buttons, except with more thinking behind it), and either of those can easily take a minute or two.

So I hate that way enough that I spent some hours coming up with something better, or at least less memorization dependent.

Now, this isn't for everyone. If you already know THE CHART by heart, you're probably fine sticking to it. If you like to alt-tab, no problem. If you have a solver on your laptop/mobile phone, excellent.
But if you like to use your head, but then you get to the bottom row and it's time to USE THE DREADED CHART and you forgot how it looks or where you put the one you printed... then this is for you.

So, without further ado, the guide:

Important concept: solving down - starting with the top row, if some button is unlit, click the button under it. You can run on row 3 and below all you want, and actually, running over row 2 is no problem either, just fix up the top row afterwards. Repeat this row by row. This solves all but the bottom row of the puzzle. (And sometimes solves the whole puzzle).

For the 3x3:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve up.
Step 3: solve down.

For the 4x4:
Step 1:solve down.

For the 5x5:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve the bottom row using the buttons in the bottom row. You're "messing up" the second-to-last row, but that's good.
If you're unsure how to do this, imagine the bottom row as a separate 1x5 puzzle, and solve left (or right).
Step 3: if the pattern you got before 2 was not symmetrical (eg. X0XX0) hit the middle button in bottom row. "to restore the ballance" so to speak.
Step 4: solve up.

Note: If that sounds confusing see Cauthey's re-phrasing of it in post #6 below, maybe it'll make it clearer.

Note2: if you forget step 3 don't worry. It's only there to speed it up. Without it can just repeat the procedure a couple of times. (The second fastest way is to "swap up and down" after step 2 and go back to step 1).

Circle (kind of unrelated, but included for completeness):
Step 1: solve clockwise until there's just one dark spot.
Step 2: step on the single spot.
Step 3: chase one the dark spots around, for example clockwise.

Practice here.

I've been using this way for a couple months, and while it ends up using more button presses than the others, it tends to be very fast, because you can just keep hitting the buttons with minimal thinking. There's also no pause to consult the chart and no running back to the top.
If someone is present while I'm solving a puzzle, I often get tells/voice comments like "woah", "GJ on that puzzle" or "now that was damm fast". The whole solving of 5x5 takes me less than alt-tabbing to a browser.

2. Very clever.

3. Originally Posted by MindCake

For the 3x3:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve up.
Step 3: solve down.
AWESOME. Thank you for pointing out how easy this can be.

Originally Posted by MindCake
For the 5x5:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve the bottom row using the buttons in the bottom row. You're "messing up" the second-to-last row, but that's good.
If you're unsure how to do this, imagine the bottom row as a separate 1x5 puzzle, and solve left (or right).
Step 3: if the pattern you got before 2 was not symmetrical (eg. X0XX0) hit the middle button in bottom row. "to restore the ballance" so to speak.
Step 4: solve up.
Not having any luck with this one. Not sure I understand what you mean in step 3.

When I solve up and down again I seem to get the same pattern that I started with after solving down the first time. I keep falling into this loop and while solving up and down I just go back and forth between:

XXOXX
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO

AND

OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
XXOXX

4. Originally Posted by Postumus
When I solve up and down again I seem to get the same pattern that I started with after solving down the first time.
My understanding ...

Last row, 5x5, symmetric, means:
00X00
or
X0X0X
or
X000X
or
XXXXX
or
0XXX0
or
0X0X0
or
XX0XX

Just solve up.

In any other case, solve it just hitting buttons in that row, then hit the center button in that row, *then* solve up.

5. Originally Posted by Postumus
Not having any luck with this one. Not sure I understand what you mean in step 3.
Step 2 is more important.

If the last row is
XXOXX
it's symmetric, so you don't need to apply step 3 at all, just apply step 2 and hit these green marked buttons in the last row.
XXOXX

Then the whole puzzle looks like

OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
XOOOX
OOOOO

You messed up the second-to last row...
but if you then solve it up- it's solved.

Or you can hit these:
XXOXX
Also "messing up" the second row, but once solved up, the whole puzzle is solved.

The step 3 useful if you end up with something like OOXXX
With just step 2 and then solving back up you'd get XXOXX at the top row, and then you'd need to "solve top row messing up the second row", then solve down, or solve down, solve bottom row, solve up. Either way, more work. But if you hit the middle button it works like this:

OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOXXX

OOOOO
OOOOO
OOOOO
OOXXO
OXXXO

And then you solve _that_ up and it cancels itself.

6. Kudos! This is really clever, and seems to work every time.

I got miffed a bit on the 5x5 instructions. However, after re-reading them, I am able to execute these steps correctly and solve every time. If this helps anyone on the 5x5:

1) Solve down.
2) Check your remainder on the bottom row for symmetry.
3) Solve bottom row USING bottom row, intentionally dirtying your second row. Solve to the right, if that helps (only stepping on bottom row buttons).
4) If you had a remainder that was not symmetrical, step on the middle bottom button.
5) Solve up, and done.

7. Originally Posted by Cauthey
Kudos! This is really clever, and seems to work every time.

I got miffed a bit on the 5x5 instructions. However, after re-reading them, I am able to execute these steps correctly and solve every time. If this helps anyone on the 5x5:

1) Solve down.
2) Check your remainder on the bottom row for symmetry.
3) Solve bottom row USING bottom row, intentionally dirtying your second row. Solve to the right, if that helps (only stepping on bottom row buttons).
4) If you had a remainder that was not symmetrical, step on the middle bottom button.
5) Solve up, and done.
It does work every time. You can check.

Yeah, the 5x5 is somewhat difficult to explain. I even considered keeping step 3 as my super-secret weapon, to avoid distractions.

8. Originally Posted by Cauthey
Kudos! This is really clever, and seems to work every time.

I got miffed a bit on the 5x5 instructions. However, after re-reading them, I am able to execute these steps correctly and solve every time. If this helps anyone on the 5x5:

1) Solve down.
2) Check your remainder on the bottom row for symmetry.
3) Solve bottom row USING bottom row, intentionally dirtying your second row. Solve to the right, if that helps (only stepping on bottom row buttons).
4) If you had a remainder that was not symmetrical, step on the middle bottom button.
5) Solve up, and done.
What does step 4) mean? If I've solved the bottom row, there is no remainder on the bottom row, right? So which row has the remainder? The 4th row? Does step 4 come before step 3?

I did get this to work, but it seems like I have an extra step compared to your, but it is still super fast and I don't need to remember any patterns except step 4:

1)solve down
2)solve bottom row
3)solve up
4) if top row looks like XXOXX, hit the middle button so it looks like XOXOX
5)solve down and done.

9. ## +1

Very clever!!

even if it's just down-up-down-up-down-and-so-on it'll solve. But part 3 makes it easier.
I have to tell my guildies!!

Little side-question:
i've seen people trying to solve it by just walking the puzzle diagonal. They start in a corner and just run over the puzzle diagonaly. Is there a special trick for this? Cause to me it looks like they are just messing up the puzzle in stead of solving it. Maybe i'm just missing something?

10. Originally Posted by Postumus
What does step 4) mean? If I've solved the bottom row, there is no remainder on the bottom row, right? So which row has the remainder? The 4th row? Does step 4 come before step 3?
You check for remainder at step 2, you need to remember that through step 3 and use it to decide whether you'll need to hit the middle or not at step 4.

Maybe try:
1)solve down
2)solve bottom row
3)if the result you got after 1 was not XXOXX, XOOOX or OXOXO hit middle button in bottom row.
4)solve up

But that's almost like you need to remember patterns, yuck.

An alternative is
1) solve down
2) solve bottom row
3) solve up
4) solve top row
5) solve down

Originally Posted by MarDeRoam
Little side-question:
i've seen people trying to solve it by just walking the puzzle diagonal. They start in a corner and just run over the puzzle diagonaly. Is there a special trick for this? Cause to me it looks like they are just messing up the puzzle in stead of solving it. Maybe i'm just missing something?
Well, you can kind of solve top-down in a way that looks like moving diagonally, but that's all I know- eg. don't just solve the whole row 2 at once- leave the left part for a bit, then do a bit of row 3, and maybe 4, and then return to 2 and so on, but that's not speeding anything up. If there is an useful trick with diagonals, I haven't found it.

11. Originally Posted by Postumus
What does step 4) mean? If I've solved the bottom row, there is no remainder on the bottom row, right? So which row has the remainder? The 4th row? Does step 4 come before step 3?

I did get this to work, but it seems like I have an extra step compared to your, but it is still super fast and I don't need to remember any patterns except step 4:

1)solve down
2)solve bottom row
3)solve up
4) if top row looks like XXOXX, hit the middle button so it looks like XOXOX
5)solve down and done.
I think you mixed up 3) and 4)
1) solve down (check remainder for symmetry. If symmetric bottom skip step 3, if not continue use step 3)
2) solve bottom row untill all lights on bottom row are lit (this will mess 4th row but that doesn't matter)
3) If bottom row you just solved wasn't symmetric after step 1 end you now jump on the middle button
4) solve up

EDIT: and ninja'd by OP! s/he is on top of it, well done!!

12. Originally Posted by MindCake
You check for remainder at step 2, you need to remember that through step 3 and use it to decide whether you'll need to hit the middle or not at step 4.

Maybe try:
1)solve down
2)solve bottom row
3)if the result you got after 1 was not XXOXX, XOOOX or OXOXO hit middle button in bottom row.
4)solve up

But that's almost like you need to remember patterns, yuck.
nm got it.

13. Originally Posted by MarDeRoam
I think you mixed up 3) and 4)
1) solve down (check remainder for symmetry. If symmetric bottom skip step 3, if not continue use step 3)
2) solve bottom row untill all lights on bottom row are lit (this will mess 4th row but that doesn't matter)
3) If bottom row you just solved wasn't symmetric after step 1 end you now jump on the middle button
4) solve up

EDIT: and ninja'd by OP! s/he is on top of it, well done!!
Ok this is clearer to me for whatever reason. Got it now.

Great post op. Made this puzzle quick and easy!

14. Never tried to solve before...took me a minute to wrap my brain around it, but I got it thanks! & +1

Disclaimer: I use to play this stupid hand-held game with a grid of lights you had to push to turn them all off...I was quite good at it instinctually, but I never consciously recognized a pattern.

15. ## Psh I got you beat

Originally Posted by MindCake
So I know, there's a thread about Shroud puzzles like, every other week.
But the solution is usually the same, like: solve down, and then USE THIS CHART.
That's a bother for me, because I hate memorizing charts and stuff. Double so, because if I forget a detail (and that does happen), there's no quick way to fix it, it's either alt-tab to google and quick search, try random buttons or try to figure out the solution (which ends up trying random buttons, except with more thinking behind it), and either of those can easily take a minute or two.

So I hate that way enough that I spent some hours coming up with something better, or at least less memorization dependent.

Now, this isn't for everyone. If you already know THE CHART by heart, you're probably fine sticking to it. If you like to alt-tab, no problem. If you have a solver on your laptop/mobile phone, excellent.
But if you like to use your head, but then you get to the bottom row and it's time to USE THE DREADED CHART and you forgot how it looks or where you put the one you printed... then this is for you.

So, without further ado, the guide:

Important concept: solving down - starting with the top row, if some button is unlit, click the button under it. You can run on row 3 and below all you want, and actually, running over row 2 is no problem either, just fix up the top row afterwards. Repeat this row by row. This solves all but the bottom row of the puzzle. (And sometimes solves the whole puzzle).

For the 3x3:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve up.
Step 3: solve down.

For the 4x4:
Step 1:solve down.

For the 5x5:
Step 1: solve down.
Step 2: solve the bottom row using the buttons in the bottom row. You're "messing up" the second-to-last row, but that's good.
If you're unsure how to do this, imagine the bottom row as a separate 1x5 puzzle, and solve left (or right).
Step 3: if the pattern you got before 2 was not symmetrical (eg. X0XX0) hit the middle button in bottom row. "to restore the ballance" so to speak.
Step 4: solve up.

Note: If that sounds confusing see Cauthey's re-phrasing of it in post #6 below, maybe it'll make it clearer.

Note2: if you forget step 3 don't worry. It's only there to speed it up. Without it can just repeat the procedure a couple of times. (The second fastest way is to "swap up and down" after step 2 and go back to step 1).

Circle (kind of unrelated, but included for completeness):
Step 1: solve clockwise until there's just one dark spot.
Step 2: step on the single spot.
Step 3: chase one the dark spots around, for example clockwise.

Practice here.

I've been using this way for a couple months, and while it ends up using more button presses than the others, it tends to be very fast, because you can just keep hitting the buttons with minimal thinking. There's also no pause to consult the chart and no running back to the top.
If someone is present while I'm solving a puzzle, I often get tells/voice comments like "woah", "GJ on that puzzle" or "now that was damm fast". The whole solving of 5x5 takes me less than alt-tabbing to a browser.
Even simpler than that:

Step 1: Wait until everyone goes through the portal, THEN shrine
Step 2: If your puzzle is not done or you land in a puzzle room by yourself, move jerkily and blame lag
Step 3: Say you usually get these puzzles but you're having a rough day and someone else will do it
Step 4: Start crafting GS while everyone waits for you so they can do part 4 because you're the only healer

16. BTW, praise from guildies on the circle method. That one, as small and as simple as it might seem somehow always dragged the solvers out on some of us. It just seems that you can get stuck in a rut on it where you can't make progress.

The OP's circle method is simple to remember and do, and works every time!

17. The methods I use are similar but slightly different.

4x4.
Standard, solve down.

Circular
1. Solve to 1 spot.
2. Step on that spot.
3. Then going immediately clockwise (counter clockwise works as well)...
3a. Skip 1.
3b. Step on next 2.
3c. Skip 1.
3d. Step on next 2.

3x3.
For this one I solve down, then look at the bottom row.
For each spot that is not lit step on the spot on the top row in the same column, plus the spots to each side. Then solve down

[S: Step here. O: Lit up. X. Not lit up]

S S O
O O O
X O O

S S S
O O O
O X O

O S S
O O O
O O X

5x5.
This is done same as the 3x3 with the exception that you ignore the right 2 columns when you worry about the bottom row.

[S: Step here. O: Lit up. X. Not lit up. -: Doesnt matter if lit or not]

S S O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
X O O - -

S S S O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O X O - -

O S S N O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O X - -

[Note: You do NOT step on square N, as you supposed to be ignoring the right 2 columns]

This may be slightly confusing as it refers to "charts" but they are just examples to show the logic. Also if there is more than 1 spot not lit up on the bottom row, you perform all the steps, even if they overlap. Once this becomes second nature you can figure out the combined steps on the top row and if its an odd count on that space, Step, and if its an even count, Leave alone, thus saving some steps on the pattern.

18. Originally Posted by Llewndyn
Even simpler than that:

Step 1: Wait until everyone goes through the portal, THEN shrine
Step 2: If your puzzle is not done or you land in a puzzle room by yourself, move jerkily and blame lag
Step 3: Say you usually get these puzzles but you're having a rough day and someone else will do it
Step 4: Start crafting GS while everyone waits for you so they can do part 4 because you're the only healer

You forgot that if you're on a caster or a bard... Part 1 can't be completed unless there's 357 dancing balls, with at least one at each portal.. And part 4 is IMPOSSIBLE unless everyone runs aournd the whole room chaind devils, because those pesky devils are scared of the uber players and won't come to them...

19. ## 5x5

To always solve 5x5 within 2 passes without printouts/solver:
1. Solve down as usual
2. Look at last row, determine what it takes to complete that last row (O O O O O) or make it staggered (- O - O -)
3. The steps determined from #2 are what you should step for Row #1.
4. Solve down.

Code:
```=================
Legend:
S = What you should step on, O= Lit, - = Not lit
Staggered Formation= - O - O -
Completed Formation= O O O O O
=================

Examples:
O O O S O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O - - -

Look at the last row: O O - - -
Stepping on 4 would result in completed formation
Hence you should step on 4 for row 1.

O O S O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
- - O - -

Look at the last row: - - O - -
Stepping on 3 would result in staggered formation,
Hence you should step on #3 for row 1.

O O O O S
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
- O - - O

Look at the last row: - O - - O
Stepping on 5 would result in staggered formation
Hence you should step on #5 for row 1.

S O O S O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O - O - O

Look at the last row: O - O - O
Stepping on 1,4 would result in staggered formation
Hence you should step on 1,4 for row 1.

S O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O
O - - O -

Look at the last row: O - - O -
Stepping on 1 would result in staggered formation
Hence you should step on 1 for row 1.```

20. Originally Posted by guardianx2009
To always solve 5x5 within 2 passes without printouts/solver:
1. Solve down as usual
2. Look at last row, determine what it takes to complete that last row (O O O O O) or make it staggered (- O - O -)
3. The steps determined from #2 are what you should step for Row #1.
4. Solve down.
Actually, I know.
I just find it easier and faster to actually complete the last row, then solve up, rather than think of "what would it take to complete that" run to the row 1, enter the code there, and solve down.

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