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  1. #1
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    Default I dont understand all the complaining about warforged and healing.

    Im sorry I just dont understand why so much hate towards wf and healing/repairing them. I have several wf (one of which is a tank with over 1k hp). I tank epics I tank TOD and I also do qiute a bit of dps.

    It's not really that hard for a caster(before the bashing starts I also have a human caster) to target a wf tank and cast aoe spells between reconstructs. We do it very often and it works very well.

    I have all 3 healers friends and no heal amp gear. I've also been told by healers both that I was easy to heal and that I needed more heal amp, both of which are true. Heal amp would help I'm not saying it wouldn't but with a random reconstruct from a caster now and again the healers don't feel the penalty of me being wf. Have the casters become so much of a singular thinking class that all they want to do is nuke mobs? Are they too good to throw a reconstruct?

  2. #2
    Scholar of Treasure Dragon.Star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2hannabal2 View Post
    Im sorry I just dont understand why so much hate towards wf and healing/repairing them. I have several wf (one of which is a tank with over 1k hp). I tank epics I tank TOD and I also do qiute a bit of dps.

    It's not really that hard for a caster(before the bashing starts I also have a human caster) to target a wf tank and cast aoe spells between reconstructs. We do it very often and it works very well.

    I have all 3 healers friends and no heal amp gear. I've also been told by healers both that I was easy to heal and that I needed more heal amp, both of which are true. Heal amp would help I'm not saying it wouldn't but with a random reconstruct from a caster now and again the healers don't feel the penalty of me being wf. Have the casters become so much of a singular thinking class that all they want to do is nuke mobs? Are they too good to throw a reconstruct?
    Its not the healers or casters that are the issue, Its mostly the WF Players that don't bother to take any kind of Healing amp or Healer's Friend that give them a bad rep, unfortantely for those that don't know, the good players get caught up in it.
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    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    If an arcane heavily (9 AP) invests in reconstruct lines then he can heal a WF decently well but it also relies on a solid Wand and Scroll Mastery investment (another 6 or 10 AP). If you have all of this you still won't get healed as well a fleshy with even a smidgeon of heal amp (when most fleshy tanks have much more).

    I've run with a few WF tanks who were decent and it was acceptable for them as the builds were from a time that WF was a good choice of tank. Sooner or later got to get with the times and TR to a fleshy race though.
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    The main issue is the split of Force and Recon into 2 lines. In the past people would spec in Force and hey great I heal better too. Now you have to invest a ton of ap for a set of spells that only effect a fraction of the player base.

    It would be nice if they merged them back.

  5. #5
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    I'd agree with Dragon.Star and also add this:

    A caster, without being WF themselves is not likely to have put anything into repair enhancements. So any healing they try to provide you is just as small as the divine hitting you when you don't have amp.

    Another thing that has come to light for a lot of people - A WF tank may be able to ignore being cursed, but requires multiple raid slots to keep swinging in front of a raid boss. I've personally seen up to four in my time playing so far. Compare this with to a Stalwart or DOS with additional healing amp, heck even without it. Both of these require no additional raid resources. Nor do they require multiple raid slots to ensure they don't die.

    It appears that the prc changes allowing either high ac or dr combined with healing amp are more optimal for raid tanking.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2hannabal2 View Post
    Im sorry I just dont understand why so much hate towards wf and healing/repairing them. I have several wf (one of which is a tank with over 1k hp). I tank epics I tank TOD and I also do qiute a bit of dps.

    It's not really that hard for a caster(before the bashing starts I also have a human caster) to target a wf tank and cast aoe spells between reconstructs. We do it very often and it works very well.

    I have all 3 healers friends and no heal amp gear. I've also been told by healers both that I was easy to heal and that I needed more heal amp, both of which are true. Heal amp would help I'm not saying it wouldn't but with a random reconstruct from a caster now and again the healers don't feel the penalty of me being wf. Have the casters become so much of a singular thinking class that all they want to do is nuke mobs? Are they too good to throw a reconstruct?
    it's actually very simple. i'm confused how you can have a hard time grasping it, frankly.

    ok, let's start and assume you have two choices: you can either

    a) heal a fleshy, even assuming absolutely no heal amp gear whatsoever.
    b) heal a WF, again with no gear (given you are planning on using reconstruct, it shouldn't matter anyways).

    for the fleshy, you have a pretty danged good chance of the healer having 75% boost clickies and 45%, and will probably have a major lore item (why not?). each heal will hit for 150 * 120% = 330 HP. scrolls will likely have at least 35% boost from enhancements, quite possibly 45% (ie 159 HP). in addition, capped favored souls will often have a free CLW (max and empowered), and clerics will typically have empower heal (making each heal hit for 495 base instead of 330) and auras/bursts. these can easily be worth large amounts of healing when used well (FvS capstone can hit for 70-80 HP iirc, and aura can hit for 22 HP every 2 seconds iirc) additionally, heal will remove any disease, blindness, stat damage, etc, that the person may have.

    for a WF, most arcanes aren't packing a 75% clicky, so you'll probably have to settle for superior potency at 50%. additionally, most will have 1 point into repair enhancements, no more, and if they're reasonably well-equipped might even have an arcane lore item (perhaps even a greater arcane lore item, though that's not quite as common). so each reconstruct is hitting for 255 HP. that's a pretty big difference. scrolls ime are a lot less likely to have a heavy investment as well... probably only first tier, for 25% bonus or 137 HP. again, a pretty big difference. in addition, there is no "free" healing available to wizards, sorcerers, or artificers. i'm not sure if reconstruct can take empower healing, because my arcanes have never tried to bother. i doubt they can, frankly. reconstruct adds essentially nothing, because the vast majority of the time you'll be hasted anyways.

    add on to this that most divines have experience healing. they've got some practice at reading bars, knowing when to start casting that heal, etc. most arcanes won't.

    the comparison doesn't even come close, even if we ignore heal amp. if we start looking at some reasonably easy ways to get heal amp (human or half-elf, dragontouch armor), it gets even more favorable for conventional healing, and at that point the WF is always contending with a significantly lower base amount for standard healing. if you get a really good heal amp tank, 100% heal amp is not uncommon. in rare cases, i'm pretty sure i've seen as much as 200% heal amp on a tank. there is no such thing as repair amp, so that's completely out.

    *can* it be done with reconstruct and a warforged? sure, if you don't mind spending the same amount for significantly lower effect, it can be done. also if you don't mind the person who's area of specialty lies elsewhere being a babysitter instead of, say, throwing dancing sphere to control the trash in the end fight of eChrono, or kiting the fire demons in eDeeps, or DoTing the boss while keeping up a rotation of other DPS spells, etc.

    or, you can do the raid with *any other race* tanking, and it will cost less resources, require less of the healer's time (freeing up more time to keep DoTs active or debuffs or other things), and generally be done better because the healer has actually done the job before.

    given a choice between completing a raid faster (because your arcanes are free to spend all their time doing arcane stuff, and your divines have more time for it) and with fewer resources required (because your divines get more oomph per scroll/SP expended most of the time) or completing it slower and with more resources required, which do you think most people will choose?

  7. #7
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Total heal amp = racial amp * class amp * item amp * misc (* misc) (* misc) ... + Fleshmaker

    As an example to exemplify why you are getting complaints:

    Elkabongg during his Barbarian Life as a WF had the following:
    Healer's Friend 2, Levik's Bracers, Guild Airship, Fleshmaker = Around 110% AC: 30ish

    Licoricewhip currently has (not close to geared out yet):
    Human, Human Improved Recovery 2, Pally Past Life X1, Guild Airship = Around 190% AC: 90ish


    It's a big difference when you start factoring in resource cost.
    Last edited by taurean430; 05-05-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member NovaNZ's Avatar
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    This is an interesting post 2hannabal2. Raises some good points.

    I’ve read the post a few times.

    I believe it is important to differentiate between 'Healing' a WF and 'Repairing' them.
    Healing by default tends to be divine in nature while repairing tends to be arcane in nature.

    I am not sure as to the underlying message u are sending in the OP - is this putting a case forward to refute unjustified complaining about the viability of playing WF alts or is it a rant at casters for not throwing the spells u want them to?

    "the healers don't feel the penalty of me being wf" - this is quoted from your OP. The way I read it u sorta answered your own dilemma in regards to 'Divine' healing and WF.

    In regards to arcanes throwing the odd Reconstruct in the WF direction - I am not qualified to answer that.
    An argument could be that whatever DPS u think u are doing - my money is on the caster (who is not throwing reconstruct/repair spells at you) having higher DPS in the majority of situations.

    If you have players who are happy to cast/scroll/wand repair/reconstruct spells then its no big deal I guess.

    If u have a one cleric in the party whose healing aura ticks a WF for 17HP while the same aura ticks a halfling for 50 HP - then there may be some base for complaints about healing a WF.

    I’m sure there are many other factors that should be taken into consideration re the OP.
    Last edited by NovaNZ; 05-05-2012 at 02:03 AM. Reason: corrections
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    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2hannabal2 View Post
    I have all 3 healers friends and no heal amp gear.
    I stopped reading there.

  10. #10
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    I stopped reading there.

    That was the first thing which crossed my mind.

    I do not have an issue or complain about my healing spells/scrolls cut to 75% but among a sea of others where it's 150% and better is pretty standard I tend to look to those people filling a tanking role first.
    Last edited by Emili; 05-05-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Sirea's Avatar
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    I never have a problem with healing WF, mostly because if I'm healing a party and there's a WF not getting healed for squat while the rest of the party is getting filled, I don't overheal to accommodate the WF, I let them die.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Capped cleric here. Never had issues healing wfs, never complained about it either.
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  13. #13
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    Healing amp is like having +threat.

    The more you're willing to invest in it, the more the healers are willing to heal you.

    If a warforged isn't interested in heal amp, I'm not interested in keeping them alive.

    This is how I view the issue.


  14. #14
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    If they add repair amp to the game, maybe WF would be competitive. When my fvs can hit a fleshy tank for just under 400 with a scroll and ~100 with free capstone though, how do they exactly compare?
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    Community Member bruener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirea View Post
    I never have a problem with healing WF, mostly because if I'm healing a party and there's a WF not getting healed for squat while the rest of the party is getting filled, I don't overheal to accommodate the WF, I let them die.

    Exactly. I don't spend extra resources to keep them up. Its not what's best for the party. If it takes 2 heals to keep up a wf and it takes 1 for the fleshy then I guess ill make room in my backpack for ya.

    IMO creating a wf melee is a selfish choice. U either want an arcane or arti to keep u repaired or a divine to spend extra sp to keep u up. I don't even mem the repair spell on my fleshy wiz. Now if I'm on my wf sorc I might throw u a bone.

    I know the a benefits of playing wf. IMO not worth it. Not even close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phemt81 View Post
    Capped cleric here. Never had issues healing wfs, never complained about it either.
    Have you had a WF tank in ToD who didn't have any healing amp gear?

    The amount of SP needed to heal a WF is increased. The difficulty level of healing the WF is only slightly increased but the chance of using pots goes up.

    If we're talking about the OP he's got 1k HP. If your heal spell hits at 100% for 400 HP it's hitting him for 300 which means you're going to need to cast it more often. Even if the arcanes are throwing recon every couple of spells it's still a waste of SP when you could have just brought a fleshy tank.

    I'm all for play what you like and I don't wait around for the perfect party. If the WF tank is the best option then I'll take him but over the past 6 months that I've done epics and raids I've never had a WF tank who was not self sustaining. I would rather just tank it myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    it's actually very simple. i'm confused how you can have a hard time grasping it, frankly.

    ok, let's start and assume you have two choices: you can either

    a) heal a fleshy, even assuming absolutely no heal amp gear whatsoever.
    b) heal a WF, again with no gear (given you are planning on using reconstruct, it shouldn't matter anyways).

    for the fleshy, you have a pretty danged good chance of the healer having 75% boost clickies and 45%, and will probably have a major lore item (why not?). each heal will hit for 150 * 120% = 330 HP. scrolls will likely have at least 35% boost from enhancements, quite possibly 45% (ie 159 HP). in addition, capped favored souls will often have a free CLW (max and empowered), and clerics will typically have empower heal (making each heal hit for 495 base instead of 330) and auras/bursts. these can easily be worth large amounts of healing when used well (FvS capstone can hit for 70-80 HP iirc, and aura can hit for 22 HP every 2 seconds iirc) additionally, heal will remove any disease, blindness, stat damage, etc, that the person may have.

    for a WF, most arcanes aren't packing a 75% clicky, so you'll probably have to settle for superior potency at 50%. additionally, most will have 1 point into repair enhancements, no more, and if they're reasonably well-equipped might even have an arcane lore item (perhaps even a greater arcane lore item, though that's not quite as common). so each reconstruct is hitting for 255 HP. that's a pretty big difference. scrolls ime are a lot less likely to have a heavy investment as well... probably only first tier, for 25% bonus or 137 HP. again, a pretty big difference. in addition, there is no "free" healing available to wizards, sorcerers, or artificers. i'm not sure if reconstruct can take empower healing, because my arcanes have never tried to bother. i doubt they can, frankly. reconstruct adds essentially nothing, because the vast majority of the time you'll be hasted anyways.

    add on to this that most divines have experience healing. they've got some practice at reading bars, knowing when to start casting that heal, etc. most arcanes won't.

    the comparison doesn't even come close, even if we ignore heal amp. if we start looking at some reasonably easy ways to get heal amp (human or half-elf, dragontouch armor), it gets even more favorable for conventional healing, and at that point the WF is always contending with a significantly lower base amount for standard healing. if you get a really good heal amp tank, 100% heal amp is not uncommon. in rare cases, i'm pretty sure i've seen as much as 200% heal amp on a tank. there is no such thing as repair amp, so that's completely out.

    *can* it be done with reconstruct and a warforged? sure, if you don't mind spending the same amount for significantly lower effect, it can be done. also if you don't mind the person who's area of specialty lies elsewhere being a babysitter instead of, say, throwing dancing sphere to control the trash in the end fight of eChrono, or kiting the fire demons in eDeeps, or DoTing the boss while keeping up a rotation of other DPS spells, etc.

    or, you can do the raid with *any other race* tanking, and it will cost less resources, require less of the healer's time (freeing up more time to keep DoTs active or debuffs or other things), and generally be done better because the healer has actually done the job before.

    given a choice between completing a raid faster (because your arcanes are free to spend all their time doing arcane stuff, and your divines have more time for it) and with fewer resources required (because your divines get more oomph per scroll/SP expended most of the time) or completing it slower and with more resources required, which do you think most people will choose?

    excelent post. I also like to emphasise the folowing:

    1. empower does not effect reconstruct, empower heal does effect heal. That means that even at the base 50% heal efficiency warforge get (ie no healers freind no gear) that a heal from a radiant servant will heal more hp than a reconstruct from a mage with maxed out repair.

    2. Back in the day warforge DR was a significant advantage and mitigated the healing loss nicely, this is no longer true. Dr is available from many sources - gear, classes etc. Add to that that enemies are hitting for 5 times what they were back then.

    3. mass cures and mass heals landing on the group will fill up most fleshies but will not fill up most wf meles, that means that the healer (or another caster) has to keep an eye on the few wf players esentialy spending and extra 50 to 100% more mana.

    4. its posible to scroll heal felshies that have invested into heal amp, its not posible to scroll heal wf - unless they are truely exceptional examples (very well geared, paladin past lives etc etc)



    I have a warforge mele, I love the warforge race but im under no illusions that it is optimal in a raid/tanking scenario.


    Personaly I feel the solution to these issues is:
    1. repair amp - have it in game, as both gear and wf racial enchancements.
    2. allow reconstruct to be empowered, allow reconstruct to fix stat damage.
    3. WF DR needs to be examined, Given the way the game is progressing Id suggest a % mitigation of physical damage on top of a much increased static DR.

    I dont want to see wf meles being much easier to heal by divines, I want to see them taking much less physical damage. Its an important distinction.

    @ the op. Get your self some heal amp gear. Stop giving the rest of us a bad rep please. I can recomend a 'blood' docent - its very easy to craft with canith crafting. When you get up around epic lvls Id suggest the epic claw set.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Sarisa's Avatar
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    If I toss a maxed out W&S Mastery Heal scroll at a Warforged melee, and it hits you for under 100, you are not worth keeping alive. Blunt, but simply that.

    A large part of end-game raiding and popular epics involve tanking situations (often SP tight tanking situations), and you had better be able to be kept up with Heal scrolls if you ever intend to tank. In Mass Heal situations (eVelah), you need to be able to last between Mass Heal's.

    There are several WF tanks I have no problem healing through Turigulon, or Horoth, or the Demon of the Frenzied Blood; but they heavily invested in making themselves healed efficiently. There are a huge amount of others, especially on Sarlona, who make you feel like you're trying to heal a rock.

    In most of those raids and end fights (except Turigulon), there are FAR more important tasks the Arcanes have to do than spend all their time Recon'ing. Recon'ing in an emergency, yes, but not constantly.

  19. #19
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    the problem with "recon in an emergency" is that unless the caster is psychic, it's usually very very hard to tell the difference between "emergency" and "tank is about to get healed for 250 points and is in virtually no danger of dying, but the divine is in the middle of the casting animation" unless you're full-time paying attention to the health bar, or you've got a lot of practice at it (say, from having healed a number of raids, usually on other characters).

    and if you recon for 200 points when the tank is down 250 points at the same time the divine is healing for 250 points, one of you just wasted a cast. if that happens 5 times during a fight, that could probably have been another 3 castings of a DoT.

  20. #20
    The Hatchery MRMechMan's Avatar
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    Mass heal 4 ranks enhancements with empower heal but no devotion/eardweller (most healers) is
    200x1.5x1.4=420pts

    Typical Melee HP=500-750

    Typical WF amp (10%/20%) and 2 teirs healers friend (teir 3 costs SIX ap)=.7*1.1*1.2=.924


    So the typical healer hits the typical WF for ~388 points. That is NOT ok.

    If they don't have any amp gear (entirely possible for a new endgame player) and only took 1 teir (you'd be crazy not to take teir1), that same heal hits them for...273. Try taking an ungeared WF into an Evon6 and see how your healers respond.

    Add to this the fact that WF healers friend enhancement can bug sometimes and put your base healing amp at .5...not fun.


    WF melee in many situations are gimp if they don't have epic gloves of the claw, the ONLY way to get 30% amp not on a weapon. Those with other damage mitigation are usually fine-dark monk shadow fade, earth stance, high enough AC to matter, etc. On my WF dark monk in earth stance healing amp is not an issue really.

    This all changes if the healer is using eardweller or a superior IX devotion item, but that is not most healers. It's slightly better with clerics as they have +75% empower heal, but that is still not enough to make WF not an sp drain in mass heal situations.

    It's even worse if a bard is healing or if the healer is using mass cures.

    They really need to rexamine the warforged race as melee at endgame. ANY other race is better for EVERY class but fvs, cleric, sorc, wizard and arti-healing amp is just too important and getting hit for ~1/2 of a similarly geared fleshie is just too crippling in a lot of situations.

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